LMP737
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AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 4:07 pm

I have heard from a good source that AA intend to dispose of the F-100's and A-300's over the next five years. This is an attempt to further reduce costs by rationalizing the fleet. It's been AA plan to go to an all-Boeing fleet. Due to the current economic conditions it appears that it's been decided to speed up the plans.

Getting rid of the F-100 and A-300 only makes sense since both are "odd ball" types in it's fleet. They were never really that popular with the M&E folks at AA. Every A&P I have talked to who has worked on the A300 have all said what a pain it is. The finance people liked the A300 and F100 because they got a good price on them. In addition you could pack a lot of cargo into the A300.

Considering the popularity of the A300 with cargo carriers AA should not have a problem selling them off. The F100 is another story. Since Fokker is no longer around and F100 not widely used I have a feeling that most will end up in the desert.

It's probably pretty certain the A300 will be replaced by a combination of 767 and 777. The F100 is more problematic. I'm sure AMR would love to be able to order more CRJ's for American Eagle. That would save them a lot of money. However the pilots current scope agreement does no allow for this. Maybe AA will order CRJ's or possibly the EMB-170 for it's fleet. Who knows.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Jaws707
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:18 pm

This could be good news for the 764. I think that it would make the best choice for all of the Carribean flights that AA operates.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:22 pm

I am still convinced that there is no real A300 replacement on offer, let alone from Boeing. I hear cargo is pretty important on AA´s Caribbean routes, so I´d be very surprised to see nay 767 take over. And the 777 would probably too big in terms of passengers.

Daniel Smile
 
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RayChuang
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:52 pm

I have real serious doubts that AA will get rid of their A300B4-600R and F100 fleets anytime soon.

First of all, the AB6's are superb airplanes for Caribbean service, especially with the extra revenues from carrying cargo. Secondly, there are currently no equivalent planes to replace the F100, especially given AA's very large fleet of the planes.

Because both planes easily meet ICAO Stage III noise regulations, that's even more incentive NOT to retire them.
 
travellin'man
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:32 pm

American also has some obscene deal with Airbus on the lease for the 300's. I think they can shed them with 30 days notice. So I don't think they are any real liability.

The F100's are probably paid for, so it's like the NW DC-9's: you might think they are just a bunch of old birds, but they are moneymakers, and that matters to any airline hemmoraghing money as badly as AA and the rest in these times!
It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
 
nwa757300
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:33 pm

This brings up the point as to why didn't AA just keep the 717s from TW. They would have been a perfect replacement for the F-100. It fits the 100 seat market and it's Boeing. From what I understand the F-100s are expensive to operate. Plus, keeping the 717 would have given a big boost to Boeings program.
 
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RE: Airsicknessbag

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:41 pm

Actually their A300's are configured for more passengers than the 777.
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STT757
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:45 pm

TWA had high lease payments due to their bad credit rating, AA has very low lease payments due to their good credit rating. So they got rid of the 717s.

I would think a mix of 757-300s and 767-400s would fit the A-300 niche, the 757 is much more active on AA's Latin American and Carribean routes than the A-300 (they have 100 757s). So adding more 757s (300 models) would be very cost effective since they have such a large support structure in place for the 757.

The A-300s only number about 30, whatever money is made from extra cargo and low lease payments are probably eaten up by higher maintenance costs to support so few aircraft which have no commonality with any other AA aircraft.

Ordering 757-300s with RR engines and 767-400s would streamline maintenance and parts costs associated with them, also pilot training costs would be decreased because of the commonality of the 757s and 767s already in AA's fleet.

As for what they do after the F-100, that's more uncertain.
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wolfpacker
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:46 pm

How many A300s and F100s does AA have?

A300=30?
F100=??
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:54 pm

75 seems to ring a bell with me, Wolfpacker.

ATAL1011 - now imagine the 777 would be configured the same way...

Daniel Smile
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:25 am

I thought the same thing, why didn't AA take the 717s to replace the F100s. I'm sure Boeing could have worked out a deal with AA to keep the program alive by lowering the lease payments to AA once AA took over, or AA could have just bought the planes and not leased them. The 717 would be a lot easier for maintenance and repairs since it is still in production.

My guess is that AA will eventually replace its A300s with 763s, maybe 764s. My guess since AA is leaning all Boeing and they already have 738s, they will go to 736s and 73Gs for F100 and MD-80 replacement, but don't count on that anytime soon.
 
wannabe
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:35 am

I have heard from good sources that the cargo element of the A-300 is what is keeping it going. Because the islands depend upon inbound cargo, the more you can carry, the better you are. I was told that even if they flew the 300 down without passengers, they make money on the cargo alone. They want every pound of cargo they can get.
 
Spacepope
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:53 am

They have 34 of the original 35 A-300s, as one was lost last december, and 74 of the original 75 F-100s that were delivered. One was written off after the right main gear collapsed during landing at DFW last year.

T.J.
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LMP737
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:41 am

IMO it makes perfect sense to dispose of the F100 and A300. By getting rid of two fleet types you are reducing your flight crew training costs. In addition you are reducing your maintenance costs because you no longer have to train your technicians on two A/C. Plus you are no longer having to stock parts for the aircraft.

The A300 has the lowest reliability rate in AA's fleet and the F100 is not far behind. By getting rid of them you increase your on-time performance. Once again your maintenance costs go down since you are disposing of two aircraft with higher maintenance costs than the rest of your fleet.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
BA
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:54 am

I don't think American is going to get rid of there A300-600Rs anytime soon.

American relies on lots of Cargo from it's Caribbean routes which is an even larger revenue source than the passengers themselves.

No aircraft in it's size and category can compete with the A300 in terms of cargo capacity. One of the biggest problems with the 767 is it is lacking in cargo capacity since it is narrower than the A300.

I've heard from several sources and even employees that AA is planning on holding on to it's A300s for many many more years. The Flt. 587 accident hasn't changed there minds.

Regarding the F100, I've heard American will also be keeping them for at least 10 more years.

They were at a time considering replacing them with TWA's 717s, but instead decided to dump the 717s and are going to keep the F100s which have been running in American's fleet for quite a few years now.

Not sure what they would replace the F100 with, but I think they will be keeping them for quite some time.

Regards
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lanperu
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:23 am

Maybe American Airlines will get some A330s but I doubt that will happen since they are going for an all-Boeing fleet.
 
flyboy36y
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:43 am

I think American would be wise to replace te Fokker 100's with EMB-170s.

I also tthink that if the 777 is too big for the Carribean in terms of passengers they can do a COMBI.
 
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:14 am

Any AA pilot will tell you that while the A-300-600R can carry more cargo, it's a total dog in terms of both performance and reliability.

The B-767 is a superior aircraft in both aspects (it's just a fact based on operational performance, people..please save the "Airbus vs. Boeing" flames), but anyone checking in a flight to SJU, POP, SDQ, and the like will tell you that some customers' excess baggage fees exceed their ticket prices! THAT is how much cargo capacity comes into play on AA's flights.

When TW attempted to compete with AA to the Caribbean using B-757 equipment, they had to restrict the number of excess bags per person, infuriating many of the passengers they were trying so desperately to win over from AA.

So even though AA would probably love to ditch the A-300 fleet, they'll probably stick around for the Caribbean runs for awhile.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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N79969
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:24 am

There is no reason to get rid of either fleet in the near future. Both fleets are relatively new and fill their roles well.
 
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STT757
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:28 am

I think it would be no problem for AA to route a couple 777s from JFK and MIA through to SDQ, and SJU.

CO is putting 767-400s on their EWR-SDQ and EWR-SJU flights starting this fall.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
clipper471
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:29 am

"TWA had high lease payments due to their bad credit rating, AA has very low lease payments due to their good credit rating. So they got rid of the 717s."

Actually, because AA had better credit one of the first things they did was re-negotiate lower lease rates on the Boeing 757's and MD-80's. So, they could have done the same with the Boeing 717's, if they wanted to.
 
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:42 am

I am not sure who provided this information, but from what I hear and understand, nothing can be further from the truth......the F100s are staying for the medium-term future and AA in the process of upgrading the F100 fleet with new interiors and other improvements, and the A300 will continue to fly the medium-haul latin amerian routes as they are the ideal aircraft for the service that they fly.....AA has great financial arrangements on the A300s.

AA has not even started to think about a replacement type for the A300 and the replacement of the F100 depends upon whether 100 pax aircraft will be operated by mainline or regional carriers in the future.
 
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STT757
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:46 am

AA was able to renegotiate certain TWA aircraft leases that were provided by Boeing GE etc, they might not have been able to renegotiate with the smaller finiacial institutions (Bank Boston etc).
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:56 am

I have heard the same thing you have Dutchjet from a friend of mine in Management in Dallas at AA.
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CMK10
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:07 am

I can see them getting rid of the A300 but not the F100. Markets like SWF and HPN are perfect for the F100 and im not sure what could replace them. At HPN we cant take 737s or MD-80s and we haev too many RJ's as it is. Adding more might clog runways farther.
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flyingbronco05
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:46 am

If AA was going to get rid of their F-100's, then why didnt they hold on to the 717's?

AA will keep the -100s for five more years or so. They are still fairly "new" planes.
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penguinflies
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:52 am

I think all but 6 of the F-100s are fully paid for and AA did take a $500 million dollar write down on them last year. After taking that big of hit on the bottom line, why would the dispose of them?
 
flyboy80
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 5:22 am

I agree that non doubtingly AA will take dilivery of the 736 and 73G, it only makes PERFECT sense, as far as the A300 goes i think the replacement will non-doubtingly be a 767, and it would make sense because AA did say that a large number of its DC-10s were replaced with the 767 becasue economics and i certainly belive thats still there large goal!!!!!!!!!
Brian
 
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 5:22 am

Here's a crazy thought.....

AA should get 753's to replace the A300's. The operating cost of the 753 would be pennies compared to the A300. As far as the cargo goes, why not get into 752PF's?. Grant it, there would be extra initial costs in acquiring the ground equipment to load/unload. But if cargo is that much of a money maker, why not?

I agree with Flyboy36y, The Embraer 190 would be an excellent choice for a F-100 replacement.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
flyboy80
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 5:24 am

sorry, forgot to add something. I'm aculty not sure if AA will order the 736 but sertianly the 737-700
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 7:23 am

Wow, this topic is getting discussed almost as much at the NW DC-9 replacement. Every week this topic comes up, and all it is is rumors, rumors, rumors, and more speculation. Heck, the other week the rumor was that F-100's were all to be grounded next month....Where did that start??? Someone noticing AA was closing the heavy mx line for the F-100's, when the reason behind this was that AA received an extension on time before the F-100's undergo Heavy C checks.

Lets go over the facts:
Carty has prided AA on ALREADY reducing fleet types from 14 to 7 as a cost saving measure. That leaves the F-100, MD-80, 738, 757, 767, A300, & 777 fleets. Those gone are the 727, DC-10, MD-11, MD-90, MD-87, DC-9, & 717.

AA intends on keeping the F-100's until around 2010. The A300's will be around at least until the later part of the decade. They need those aircraft for the routes they fly. They need the A300's for MIA & SJU flying. The F-100's are needed for the 90-100 seat market. Otherwise, they have a huge gap between the CRJ & MD-80. Getting rid of mainline aircraft would play havoc with Eagle and the scope clause. Eagle can't grow until mainline grows.

AA is in no position to order anymore aircraft at this time, just look at their finanicals. They are not going to go out and start a fleet replacement. They have deffered ALL aircraft currently, receiving their last aircraft in May 2002 and no more deliveries until May 2003. AA still has an outstanding order for 738's, 763's, and 777's.

Phasing these types out over the next 5 years just doesn't seem likely with their financial position. Fleet rationalization only can go so far, they won't sacrifice their route network in the name of fleet commonality. These aren't small fleets either 74 F-100's and 34 A300's is a very sizable group of aircraft.

Once again, rumors galore.

 
kaitak
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 7:29 am

They would need to start thinking about a 767 replacement and it occurs to me that the A330-200 would make a fine A300-600R and 763 replacement, with a few 753s to replace the earlier 762s.

The 763 is a fine aircraft and I know AA has a few more on order, but the 332 can do virtually everything it can do and more - more freight space, wider cabin (= more flexible configuration) and more range. And they can be pretty sure of a good deal from Airbus.

Boeing shouldn't think that just because there is an exclusivity deal, they will be able to force AA to order the 764.
 
clipper471
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:15 am

"AA was able to renegotiate certain TWA aircraft leases that were provided by Boeing GE etc, they might not have been able to renegotiate with the smaller finiacial institutions (Bank Boston etc)."

As you can see from the following list, of the 30 717's 16 were financed through Wells Fargo (as was also 5 757's and 42 MD80's), and 13 by Boeing (as were 2 MD80's). AAL did intend to only retire the 767-200's and DC-9's. Later, they decided to return the 717's because they didn't fit into their fleet plan. I suppose the main issue was fleet commonality?

717
16 Wells Fargo
1 First Security Utah
13 Boeing

757
5 Wells Fargo

MD80
42 Wells Fargo
2 Boeing
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:16 am

Sigh.....

Yes, AA is going with an all-Boeing fleet. Not now, but in the long term they are. They are ordering exclusively from Boeing, thats it. Sorry, but you won't see an A330 in AA colors. The 767's aren't getting that old yet. The 767's fly a lot less cycles since they are more focussed on medium and long range flights. Heck, they just got rid of the 727's, they aren't going to be replacing 767's yet. Lets not get ahead of ourselves. For all of you still hoping for an AA A330 or A340 or A319, just keep on dreaming.
 
brons2
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:18 am

The 763 is a fine aircraft and I know AA has a few more on order, but the 332 can do virtually everything it can do and more - more freight space, wider cabin (= more flexible configuration) and more range. And they can be pretty sure of a good deal from Airbus.

The 763 is more efficient for domestic US ops...the 332 would be overkill for them. AA doesn't need the range, and the 332 has to carry around a lot more jet fuel to get it, ie, 23,000 gallons for the 763 and 36,000 gallons for the A332.

Sure the 332 can carry more cargo but I'm not sure that would be enough to make it profitable on most of the thinner US and transatlantic routes that the 763 flies.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
trintocan
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:37 am

You are all surely right about AA and cargo capacity to the Caribbean. A few years ago my father, who was travelling to MIA and on to DCA with 2 of my cousins, was unable to fly on the original day because the plane (an AA A300) had a large shipment of flowers to take from POS and that restricted its baggage space - and thus the number of pax it could take. They were rebooked on the next day's flight.

AA certainly has a lot of cargo business into POS. Nowadays it has replaced the one A300 with 2 757s daily from MIA but the A300 still rules the roost into SJU, POP, SDQ, KIN and MBJ. Caribbean pax always travel very heavy and ship all make and manner of goods home, so the demand for air cargo is always very high.

As such, I think those A300s will stick around for a while. The fact they were pulled from transatlantic services only means that they will now be dedicated to Caribbean and Latin American routes while allowing the 767s and Triple Sevens to handle the European services.

As for the F100s, they are relatively new planes and a fleet of 74 is still sizeable. Given too that the one WFU is likely a spares source for the others it would seem rather unlikely for AA to simply ditch such a large fleet. If they did so AE could not expand to fill the gap (indeed it would have to shrink) and their service would fall considerably. The talk about the newer 717s is a moot point - does one really drop 74 planes, the oldest being about 10 years and which are effectively all paid for, just to keep 30 (albeit newer) planes who have high lease payments attached to them?

Trintocan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
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yyz717
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:41 am

Regardless of the current fit of the A306 and the F100 in the AA fleet, Boeing could make a very attractive offer to roll over the fleet with the 753/764 and 73G. In 5 years, if the economy if stronger, Boeing may be less willing to offer big discounts, and AA will be aware of the timing. Both Boeing and AA are hurting now, which makes an A306/F100 replacement deal possible.

Boeing could convert the A306 to F status..they would be in demand in the 2nd hand markets. The F100's would be hard to absorb in the used market but Boeing's primary goal would be to keep the new-build 73G line filled.

Timing is everything.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CaliforniaSoul
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:45 pm

Nice to see all these rumors flying around about the company I work for......at least people are talking.

As for the F-100, Dutchjet and PSU have the main jist of the story.....but wait! We were told tonight by management that the original plan was for the Fokkers to start their vanishing act around 2010 as previously discussed, but because of unseen circumstances (drum roll please).......that schedule has been moved up to the fall of 2003, with a gradual retirement similar to the 727.

We are down to one light check and drop-in line for the F-100 in Tulsa as of now, losing the heavy because of the FAA decision that PSU discussed. One of the rumors, that of the "million dollar fix," was given as reason for the early retirement.

Stay tuned for next week's exciting episode.......same bat time....same bat channel!  Big grin
 
flyboy36y
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:30 pm

Californiasoul,

Don't you mean:

StAAy tuned for next week's exciting episode.......same bAAt time....same bAAt channel!

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:51 pm

Fact: No single plane on the market can offer American the flexibility and efficiency it needs on the routes it flies out of Miami and JFK. It is really as simple as that. Just look at the scheds. Today, American will be sending 7 A300-600s to Santo Domingo (out of 20 daily flights to the city from four gateways), four to Port-Au-Prince (out of 7 daily flights to three gateways), and 12 to San Juan (to six gateways). They provide much needed passenger capacity that not even AA's 777s can provide, and much needed cargo room, and can perform short, dense hops like Miami-Orlando and San Juan-Santo Domingo more efficiently than other large aircraft.
a.
 
CaliforniaSoul
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Thu Aug 01, 2002 12:50 am

I agree with Mah4546 on the A300 situation......we service those in Tulsa and I am not hearing any rumors or rumblings from the brass on their future....which of course means that they are history!

I have a feeling the next two years in the airline industry is going to be very interesting to say the least.....I just hope my company survives it. I hate to see ANY of the companies fold.......and even though Southwest and Jetblue are shaking up the industry, it just keeps the rest of us looking for better ways to serve the customer.....which is why we're all here in the first place.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:00 am

If it happens, I see American acquiring the 753 or more 763's for the Carribean routes. Possibly considering the 757PF for cargo. They've obviously already got 757's so commonality would be no problem.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
JAL
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:17 am

Maybe AA will now orders the 767-400 to replace their A300 and the 717 would be a great replacement for the F-100.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
hustler
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RE: AA Disposal Of F-100 & A-300

Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:21 am

As a frequent traveler to SDQ and POP I always see people paying extra cash to bring extra cargo aboard the A300. I've heard of people paying up to $250 in Christmas to bring an extra suitcase onboard.

I believe they fly the A300 5 times to SDQ and 2 times to POP. It is a work-horse and it makes AA a whole lot of cash.

...Hustler.

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