Guest

How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:49 am

Does anyone know how long access to the terminals in the USA will be limited to only ticketed passengers? I know that they have been doing that for years in europe, but that was never the custom here. will it ever change or are is that likely to be a permanent new fixture in our airports?
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:50 am

I don't think it will go back. There's no real rational reason for it. People can meet outside security in the baggage claim area, or any other place.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:42 am

Brons2 is correct. Don't hold your breath. Security takes priority over someone wanting to meet their loved one 2 minutes earlier or someone wanting to take photographs of airplanes. Non-ticketed access to gates will never return, and if it does I will be thoroughly pissed and disappointed with the legislator that makes that decision. Also, expect in the near future security check-points at the entrances to terminals and a much greater presence from the U.S. Military at all U.S. airports.

Later,
Chris in Orlando
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:53 am

Regarding moving security check-points to terminal entrances, I spoke with our director the other day on this issue, and he doesn't see it happening anytime soon, at least not at MSY.

The rationale of keeping terrorists, or at least those with criminal intent from committing crimes in ticket lobbies doesn't completely justify moving checkpoints. In our minds, moving checkpoints further forward in the terminal simply means that a criminal would simply conduct his business on the departure/arrival ramps, etc. Simply stated, if you move the checkpoints, you are simply moving the problem to another area.

As for lessening the restrictions on visitors going down concourses, we don't see it happening, either.

Tom in NO (at MSY)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:58 am

It's ticketed passengers only beyond security everywhere else in the world ... why should the US be different?
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:59 am

Now, It's is TIME to bring with the visitors are back into the concourses right now!!!! I hate to said something with an the Only Ticketed Passengers sign at the checkpoint and I did take it away from the checkpoint. This is exactly way I do not want to see it anyone at the airports. This must completed is finished with sign at the checkpoints. Let's have chance bring with the gate area is back!!!!! Said with the customers are very happy to be back again and don't even need to be all of US airports about this one. Just only some of the US Airports.

VOTE NOW WITH SAID NO TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER AT THE AIRPORTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:04 am

I'm sorry, what was that?
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:08 am

i hope it never changes.it is much easier this way,as an agent it helps.



ual 777 contrail
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:12 am

The only objection I have (along with many others) is that security is often a congested hassle as it stands. Even with only ticketed passengers going through, there is still a lot of gridlock in place. I have seen some improvement, but we have a way to go yet with improving the process of going through security. They just simply cannot accomodate all of those extra people going through the checkpoint. It looks like the present situation of employees and ticketed passengers only will continue. Yes, it is bad for spotting and that is unfortunate. Airline CEO's have stated that the "hassle factor" with the check in process and security has hurt the airline industry very much. The last thing we need right now is for the security process to become even more of a pain.
 
nebflyer
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 9:23 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:14 am

I said this in the "9/11 Excuse" thread, but I'll say it here too... the terrorists on that awful day FOLLOWED THE RULES. They were TICKETED PASSENGERS. They did NOT bring any "weapons" on board, or at least "weapons" as defined that day.
From what I can see, the "security" measures we have implemented in airports since 9/11 would NOT have stopped those terrorists. The only thing the new "security" measures have done is to create a false sense of security, and of course make traveling a huge hassle.
We are losing our civil liberties, and like obedient sheep, the majority of the American public is going along with it in the name of "security."
 
RickB
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:11 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:15 am

If I translated that correctly - I think he was in favour of visitors being allowed past security check points.

That being the case I would have to disagree - without visitors the concourses are less crowded, security checkpoints are less busy (and lets face it the queues at security are bad enough at the moment) and its generally safer.

As I have said in the past, a terrorist could come and go through security checkpoints as often as he wants unarmed (since he no longer needs a ticket he could travel through the same checkpoint multiple times - he would be unarmed so would not be stopped as he is doing nothing wrong) and its possible he could spot potential lapses in security. These lapses could be exploited later on by an armed terrorist. Letting visitors back in would reduce security overall and its something I'm not in favour of.

RickB
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:22 am

Alright.
Now, It's is TIME to bring with the visitors are back into the concourses right now!!!! I hate to said something with an the Only Ticketed Passengers sign at the checkpoint and I did take it away from the checkpoint. This is exactly way I do not want to see it anyone at the airports. This must completed is finished with sign at the checkpoints. Let's have chance bring with the gate area is back!!!!! Said with the customers are very happy to be back again and don't even need to be all of US airports about this one. Just only some of the US Airports.

Why do non-passengers deserve to be let down to the gates? As others have previously said, it is this way everywhere else in the world. With the additional procedures at security checkpoints, it takes additional time to process passengers. The lines are already much longer than they were prior to 11 Sept. when everybody and their mother was clearing security on a daily basis to either meet people at the jetway or just loiter around the gates. There are less people clearing security now and it takes longer. Why should somebody rushing to make their flight miss it because there is a line full of people who have no purpose at the airport other than to photograph airplanes from the windows and otherwise loiter without contributing business to the airlines? The intent of the new security regulations is not to say that those who aren't traveling are a danger if let behind security. It is simply to limit the volume of people needing to be processed at checkpoints to allow the expanded and indepth process to move at a more expeditious rate thanks to less waiting in line.

VOTE NOW WITH SAID NO TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER AT THE AIRPORTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is this? The federal takeover of airport security is an improvement. They are implimenting many new processes and procedures that the airlines would not pay for if security was once again left up to them and their individual contracts with private independant security firms. Pay people more, give them some incentive to do well with advancement opportunities and they will be better workers. This is what the federal government is doing with its new TSA troops at the nation's airports. Many travelers prefer these new federal workers to the previous mostly rude and unmotivated minimum-wagers.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:22 am

I am preaching to the choir here (perhaps over-reacting as well), but how many people have to die in order for some people to stop whining about the supposed "inconvenience" security checkpoints present, and racial profiling (which is justified)?!

DO NOT FORGET what happened on September 11, 2001.

Chris in Orlando
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:24 am

Flynavy,

Read the rest of my paragraph, please. I was trying to explain that if everyone else was allowed through the checkpoint would create even more of a jam than exists now.

Note the sentence that you quoted from me and read my next sentence. It says:

It looks like the present situation of employees and ticketed passengers only will continue

Read the whole thing before you respond. Lord!

Nonrevman
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:26 am

NebFlyer,
From what I can see, the "security" measures we have implemented in airports since 9/11 would NOT have stopped those terrorists. The only thing the new "security" measures have done is to create a false sense of security, and of course make traveling a huge hassle.

Actually, new security measures would have made it more difficult for the 11 Sept terrorists on several points:
1.) Their box cutters would not have been allowed.
2.) Purchasing one way tickets day of departure with cash would have flagged for additional security and background checks.
3.) Additional security in passenger manifests is flagging some persons as potential threats.... no doubt some of these persons in question would have been flagged due to their being on immigration watch lists.
4.) More thorough searches and secondary searches caused by the one-way/cash flag would probably have disarmed the terrorists due to stricter regulations as far as items permissible in carry-on baggage. If not readily apparent in a cursory search, the bags opened and searched at the gate with their secondary examination would have increased the chances of finding the items.
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:34 am

It is my firm belief that non-ticketholders should be allowed inside the terminals.

However, I don't recommend their readmittance until security procedures are stringet yet efficient enough to accomodate them without endangering the terminal.

Removing non-ticketholders from terminals is a good band-aid measure in that it allows for an easier overhaul of aviation security due to reduced volumes of people going through checkpoints. However, making it a permanent measure hurts airports' economies, inconveniences travelers, and, most of all, betrays confidence in the air security system.

So I say: BRING BACK VISITORS! But only when the time is right.

Aaron G.
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:36 am

Why do non-passengers deserve to be let down to the gates?

Well for one reason, its their money building the place.

Purchasing one way tickets day of departure with cash would have flagged for additional security and background checks.

thats bullshit and you know it. Very few if any background checks are being performed on passengers.

TNNH
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:41 am

It has very little if anything to do with security. It has to do with efficiently and convenience. Right now if 5-10 times the number of people wanted to go through the security checkpoints, you would have even longer lines and even more delays. Then you would have people b*tching and whining about it. The only way it will happen is if a way is found to make the screening process as close to perfect as possible and where it only take 30 seconds or less per person. Don’t count on that for a while.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:43 am

Removing non-ticketholders from terminals is a good band-aid measure in that it allows for an easier overhaul of aviation security due to reduced volumes of people going through checkpoints. However, making it a permanent measure hurts airports' economies, inconveniences travelers, and, most of all, betrays confidence in the air security system.

However, many airports have repositioned security to allow greater access to retail outlets without having to clear security. Jacksonville, FL, for example.... moved security from a central point and replaced it with three individual checkpoints (one for each concourse). Now, the food court and shops are open to all. I'd be interested to see sales number comparisons before and after the new regulations were initiated. I put forward a guess that there is not much change in sales for retail outlets far out in the gate concourses. Most using them were passengers anyway. Many departing passengers and those with them already ate together before security out of pure convenience. Also, more passengers are staying inside of security on connections instead of straying outside and using those restaurants. It all evens out in the end.

As far as inconveniencing passengers.... the new regulations are more an inconvenience to non-passengers. They can't go behind security for whatever purpose. Passengers still can go everywhere they need to go. The biggest inconvenience is that they'll have to meet people (in most airports) just a few hundred feet from where they would previously. As for departing passengers being seen off by others.... they just have to say their good-byes a few minutes earlier. I see the only real inconvenience is to aviation enthusiasts (which is probably why this is such a hot issue on these boards).
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:47 am

Twaneedsnohelp,

Well for one reason, its their money building the place.
Well, our taxpayer money is being used to build police stations, military bases, prisons, government office buildings, power plants, etc. I guess by your logic we should have free reign of all of these places.

thats bull and you know it. Very few if any background checks are being performed on passengers.

I should have said "in theory." Supposedly this happens. Supposedly passenger lists are checked against things like terrorist and immigration watch lists. But, we don't all know for sure as it is top secret, after all. (by the way, sorry for editing you in my quote, but I don't want some petty moderator deleting this post for the silly reason of a commonplace not-so-obscene obscenity)
 
Andie007
Posts: 827
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 5:15 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:05 am

At Germany non-ticketed passengers were never allowed at the transit zones, gates, etc.
I never understand why this was allowed im America.
I was very confused at L.A. where lots of people were in the after-security zone...
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:32 am

Worrying about PAX being a security concern is a complete waste of time. My experiences show me that a well motivated flight-crew is a much more likely source of mayhem in the skies of the future. If someone is motivated enough to kill themselves for a cause, what's a year or two of flight school?
Anyways, the only reason I am bothered by all this is that

A. I pay for it with increased surcharges added to the price of passage

B. I can be unduly harrassed because a security guard (read: school bully who couldn't get a job with the local PD) is curious, bored, or paranoid.

C. I am not at all safer than I was on the 10th of last September.

All we are doing is breeding smarter terrorists while conscientiously avoiding dealing with the actual problem --i.e., the ony real security.

Cheers
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:51 am

The following two, count them two, paragraphs are non directed at any one user. They are generalized statements.

Some people feel that post-September 11 security measures aren't working and may be a waste of "tax-payer" dollars, and they have a right to feel that way. However, since they are such a waste of time and money, let's have the Federal government remove all of the post-September 11 security measures. Would you feel safer then? And, you being the critic, let's hear some of your brilliant ideas. Could YOU do a better job?

Further, (and this is in no way directed towards any one individual) do not claim to be a tax-payer unless you file Federal and/or state income tax each year. A 16 year-old, who's parents must buy his airline tickets for him, and who only pays sales tax for a candybar, is NOT a tax-payer.

Sarcasm aside, in response to my now deleted post, I must apologize to nonrevman. I am for current security measures and I am for a future increase in security measures, 100%. Non-ticketed individuals have no logical or valid reason to be let past security check-points. This is the way it should be.

Later,
Chris in Orlando  Big thumbs up
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 4:54 am

In some ways, the FAA allowed the hijackings to take place because they wouldn't enact more serious security measure because the airlines whined to them about the costs associated with them. After Pan Am 103, it was suggested that all flights in the U.S. (domestics and international) go to a positive bag match system. The airlines balked at this, citing that it would require more time and expenses to roll out such programs systemwide, so they managed to only get it applied to International flights only. Yes, this wouldn't have stopped the hijackers in that respect, which leads to my next point. The bag matching system is based on the idea that a bomber wouldn't travel on a plane that contained the bomb they had placed in baggage; this as we all know is utter bull****, just look at the suicide bombings that take place in many parts of the world. The boxcutters. This little loophole turned out to be quite large. Tools such as these were waived from the security requirements by not only the airlines, but by the various pilot's unions. They argued that the knives they carried (at the time the Swiss Army Knife was the one of choice) were essential to their work in case they needed to so any minor flightdeck mx (Or so they say. I think they were using it for the corkscrew.......), and so with that in mind, all knives with blades of less than 3" were allowed to be carried onboard. The FAA basically thought, "Who's going to hijack a plane with a pocketknife?" Boy, they definitely paid for that thought. The airlines now have no problem with the regs placed upon them post-9/11; it's a shame that so many lives had to be lost in order to drive some sense into the airlines and into the FAA. As for allowing non-ticketed persons into the sterile (i.e., gates, etc.) areas, I say yes, with some reservation. People should be able to see people off at the gate and be able to meet them at the gate when their flight arrives. Since the airports in the U.S. have in general been designed with passengers and non-traveling companions in mind, most do not have the arrivals areas like at many airports around the world, save at international concourses, and at many airports, those areas are off imits to non-ticket passengers as well, defeating some part of the design of the concourse. Retail shops in many airports have suffered as well. It used to be people dropping off passengers would have a drink, a snack or a meal at the airport before the flight, now with the new regs, those businesses are seeing revenue drop. Perhaps making portions of the concourses "sterile" and keeping the main areas open to the general public would be the best idea.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 5:02 am

Some U.S. airports had ticketed-pax-only restrictions in effect even before September 11th. An example was the AA terminals at JFK.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 5:27 am

Don't bring them back!
It's much nicer without all the extra people.
Shorter lines at the bars, shops, etc...
Also...less children!
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:05 am

Greg,

Just please bring them back with the visitors are goes into the concourse again as for possible. It's is time to be bring it back go through of the concourses to look with the airplanes. OK? Just please do it with through of the security checkpoint at the US Airports. I did take it off with the Ticketed Passengers Only is out at the FLL airport. I don't want to see it with the sign. Just please do it with your friends can able go through of the concourses again and kill with the Ticketed Passengers Only is out at the front of the checkpoint right now. Well, you should get ready to be happy go back at gate area!! YAY!!!!!!
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:18 am

ScottysAir,

I'm sorry, but I still don't see any legitimate reason why security checkpoints should be reopened to everybody. Should they be opened to all so that people can go watch airplanes and just have fun or is there a more concrete reason?
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:42 am

ScottysAir, I'm sorry, I know you are hard of hearing, but I can't understand one goddamn thing you wrote.  Sad

Why did they make sign language so different from spoken language?

Jason...

Listen, I'm all for the background checks, they should be an integral and important part of aviation security. I'm upset our government doesn't do it. Oh and your are excused for the editing, I know exaclty what its like to have a bitter mod on your tail looking for any reaons to delete.

take care,
russ
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:46 am

Russ,
Having spoken with a few people, apparently passenger manifests are checked against a government-compiled list of "question passengers" which include those suspected of being in terrorist organizations, those wanted by the INS or US Customs, those with outstanding warrants in many local jurisdictions, etc. Supposedly it does happen in practice, but how widespread I am unsure.
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:47 am

When I was in LBB my flight jut landed. I went to get my bags and tried to re enter the security area. THey would not let me. I was stuck for hours wiith no food as all the food was inside the security area!! It is stupid not to let anyboydy past security who is not flying.
 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:00 am

I would call it smart, personally.

Jacob: First of all, you KNEW that you couldn't get past security if you weren't a ticketed passenger. You created the inconvinience for yourself.

Later,
Chris in Orlando
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
SJCguy
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2001 4:39 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:14 am

Could you only imagine what the wait and lines would be if everybody and anybody was allowed thru security!?!? It takes forever for just ticketed pax to get thru there, now add about 100 extra people per line into the mix...uh uh...ain't gonna happen. The days of meeting your loved ones at the gates are over unfortunatly. Thank the piece of shi* terrorists for that one my friends...

SJCguy
 
Krags
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 12:38 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:40 am

I have to admit that right now I am undecided about allowing everyone into the secured areas. I can certainly understand the reasons for allowing ticketed passengers only. But on the other hand, anyone with a computer, printer, and scanner can forge an e-ticket print out. So if a terrorist really wants access to the secured area he will get it one way or another. I think a solution might be to have seperate security screening areas. One for actual passengers and one for "visitors". The one for visitors could be manned with minimum staffing so if it takes a long time to get through then its no big deal because you aren't going to miss a flight. Here in TUL I have seen the ticket counter agents give non passengers special passes that allow them to accompany ticketed passengers to the gates. One example was a wife who just wanted to be able to see her husband off. So that shows me right there that there are already loop holes in the system.
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:47 am

I have to admit that right now I am undecided about allowing everyone into the secured areas. I can certainly understand the reasons for allowing ticketed passengers only. But on the other hand, anyone with a computer, printer, and scanner can forge an e-ticket print out.

They won't be able to get onto an airplane, so what is the concern?

So if a terrorist really wants access to the secured area he will get it one way or another. I think a solution might be to have seperate security screening areas. One for actual passengers and one for "visitors". The one for visitors could be manned with minimum staffing so if it takes a long time to get through then its no big deal because you aren't going to miss a flight.

That would require either diverting energy from the checkpoints currently used for passengers only, which would defeat this purpose and just cause longer waiting, or hiring more workers and purchasing more equipment, which is not worth it as visitors are not paying PFC's or security taxes.

Here in TUL I have seen the ticket counter agents give non passengers special passes that allow them to accompany ticketed passengers to the gates. One example was a wife who just wanted to be able to see her husband off. So that shows me right there that there are already loop holes in the system.

I'll say again that the point of the security is not that "all non-traveling people are dangerous." The point of restricting the gates to only ticketed and traveling passengers is simply to cut down on the number of people to make security lines shorter. With added things like more bomb swabs, completely opening many bags, having electronic devices turned on (at some airports), the shoe tests, and wanding, going through security is much more involved than before (put your bags on the belt, metal stuff in the pan, walk through, grab your bag, go on to the gates). It takes longer so to cut down on wait times, restrict it to only those who need to go through. Nowhere did the government say that non-traveling passengers are dangerous. They simply cause undue wait because of added volume.
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:17 am

At TOL, passengers need to have a boarding pass (or priority verification) issued at the airport on the day of departure to pass through security. Our ticket counter closes 30 minutes prior to departure. These two policies make working the gate a piece of cake -- except for searching pax...that's still a pain.

joe
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 11:01 am

Jacob: First of all, you KNEW that you couldn't get past security if you weren't a ticketed passenger. You created the inconvinience for yourself.

This is true, but it was a no win situation. What can I do? I needed to get my luggage.

 
flynavy
Posts: 2177
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:17 pm

Again, you KNEW that you couldn't get past security if you weren't a ticketed passenger. You created the inconvinience for yourself.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:40 pm

Some U.S. airports had ticketed-pax-only restrictions in effect even before September 11th. An example was the AA terminals at JFK.

Yea, my local airport has NEVER let non-ticketed passengers through the security checkpoint, but luckily the vast majority of the terminal is unsecured area (with a small waiting room just inside the security checkpoint right next to the boarding door)
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
ILUV767
Posts: 3035
Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 2:21 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:11 pm

I'll say what has already been said but, if non ticketed passengers were presently allowed past the checkpoint, lines would me much longer and more people would be troubled.

I L U V 7 6 7
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:14 pm

We need to see some real reform in security. Most of the procedures in place right now (i.e. checking photo IDs two and three times) do little to enhance security, since creating fake IDs and documents is way too easy, as if someone really on a "watch list" will really try getting on a plane with their true identification. We should develop bomb-resistant cargo containers, 100% screening on checked luggage and passengers (and by the way, if the first screening is done correctly, what's the use of the "random search"?) and train crews how to property respond to hijackings, and stop harrassing people who want just want to watch airplanes. I know I digressed slightly from the discussion of letting visitors in the terminal, but I do understand the long lines and hassle that would be placed on traveling passengers. But if you really want to get through to meet your guests at the arrival gate, I'm sure you would figure out how to do it without changing the current rules.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
KCLE
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:03 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 2:29 pm

At CLE, I think it should be like this:

We have a Spectator Deck, where a good portion of all the A.net photos from CLE were taken. Since the deck is located within the secured portion of Concourse B, there has been almost no one up there anymore. First they closed off the whole thing because of "security reasons"(Right, if you go THROUGH the checkpoint first and they check you for anything, how exactly do you pose a threat sitting in a Spectator Deck watching planes?)

Then they decided to reopen only the inner portion, and because of the checkpoint, it was only avialable to those flying DL, WN, UA, airOntario, or the Delta regioal affialiates. Now, when I would spend entire days at that Deck last summer, I know about 95% of them weren't flying out of B. They were either waiting for a long connection from CO or decided to spend the a few hours there and watch for a family members plane flight to arrive. One time a whole family came up there to wish off a family member flying aboard a UA 737.

Now here's another thing. Concourse B is not all that busy, save WN at the end of the Concourse, but that is in waves. Same thing with all the other airlines. Sure they get busy, but there are times I remember there was maybe 1 or 2 in line for security, and 15 or 20 leaving the Councourse.

Here's what they should do:
Reopen both parts of the deck. Have people who plan on visiting the deck call a day or two in advance and make an appointment. Then you would be told to go talk to a certain person about going to the deck. They would give you a special ticket or something with an access code or number or bar code that you show the security personnell and then they scan or type it in on a small computer and if a green light shows up you can go if it's red you get questioned. You would only be able to go to the security checkpoint during an offpeak time during the day, like between flights, when there is less then 5 people. You would only be allowed one bag, for a camera that would be searched and you would have to subject to a hand search with that metal detector wand thing. When you leave the Councourse, you have to return the pass to the certain person you got it from or an alarm will go off at the doors.
 
RickB
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:11 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 6:37 pm

The point I think people are missing is this:-

If a terrorist can walk through a checkpoint 100's of times (rather than just each time he buys a ticket) it is possible he will be able to spot a weak point in the security or spot someone who doesn't do the job quite right. During this 'research' phase he would be unarmed and therefore if he gets stopped - no big deal.

Once he has found the weakpoint - he returns with a weapon - goes through the checkpoint using the flaw he has found (he may not even have a ticket at this point) - once through security he can plant the weapon somewhere - say in a flower box, plant tub or something. Later on the real terrorist who is unarmed - goes through the checkpoint unarmed and picks up the weapon from the agreed location - he's now onboard the aircraft with his weapon.

Letting visitors through security is a POTENTIAL weakness and should be avoided. I appreciate it may inconvenience people - but think about 9/11 and think how much is the inconvenience really worth !!

RickB
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 10:01 pm

It's just been SO much nicer with less crowds in the terminals. You can find a place to sit and their are only half as many screaming babies.

Although I fully support a viewing area for non-passengers...even if there is a slight charge to maintain the facility and it's security.
 
kwbl
Posts: 425
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Thu Aug 01, 2002 11:50 pm

My 2 cents for whatever it's worth:

1. I think non-pax should be allowed back down the concourses. At least in the airports I have been to, this number is less than 15% of the people so there would not be hoards of people. I do not see that security is improved though I would agree from a convenience standpoint, it makes the security lines shorter for those who are flying, but agin, I do not think we are talking about large amounts of people. Also, people who are not flying generally do not have baggage or anything that needs to be checked.

2. RickB indicated that a potential problem maker could go through hundreds of times to check out weaknesses. I don't think that would be an issue. Terrorists are well-funded, if they want to check out the security situation, and the only way to do it is to buy a ticket, they can buy tickets-it would not be a problem .

3. The reason US airports have traditionally let non-pax down concourses is that for the most part, US airports are domestic facilities. Most countries in Europe and Asia have a far greater # of int'l passengers who must 1st transit through customs.

4. I think some of the security issues taken are good but the reality is, that if terrorists or other plain old bad people are going to do bad things, there is always a way to beat the system.
 
Guest

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:01 am

Kwbl,
Your points are well taken.
However, I have yet to see a real convincing argument out of most other than "I want to watch airplanes so they should let us back through!"

I'd be really interested in seeing the financials of businesses behind and outside of security. I proffer a guess that it has all worked out (especially since most retail outlets in a given airport are operated by one company).
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:33 am

#1) I agree with Seiple, I have also yet to read a single convincing argument for allowing non-ticketed passengers through the checkpoints. The "I just to watch the airplanes" argument doesn't hold water, and I guarantee you that the TSA and we as airport management don't even consider that argument.

#2) Another argument against moving checkpoint to the terminal entryways: has anyone considered the logistical headaches of screening absolutely everything and everybody that enters the terminal? This idea changes the line of thinking regarding the location of EDS (Explosive Detection System) in airport terminals...unless you all want your luggage screened twice. Secondly, were this to happen, we all can say goodbye to our friends and family on the departure ramp, because non-ticketed passengers won't be let in the terminal. Finally, anyone here think we're going to approve a serious loss of revenue from losing the non-ticketed passenger in airport retail, and what would be a serious revenue dropoff in our parking lots?

As an aside, we don't see the TSA forcing that issue, they've got enough deadlines and headaches to keep them busy.

Tom in NO (at MSY)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
Mr. Mof
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 8:35 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:43 am

I work as an inner-city school teacher in NJ. Pardon my analogy: There is a sure-fire way to cut back on problems in our hallways and that is to LIMIT the number of students in the hallways...when they DO NOT NEED TO BE THERE! My airport I use is Newark and Terminal C used to be a wonderful place to spot planes, shop and even eat if you were eaiting for family/friends. Now it is off-limits to non-passengers since 9/11. As far as the terrorists...the cliche, unfortunately, states it all, "Where there is a will, there is a way." Pissed
 
eugdog
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2001 11:32 pm

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Fri Aug 02, 2002 2:01 am

many shops in the airport concourse are paying huge rents - now that only ticketed passengers are allowed pass the check in desk these shops must be suffering a big drop in customers - yet they may be still paying the big rents that were negotiated pre-September 11. It is very tough on them -but whether this justifies allowing non ticketed passengers back into the main concourse is debateable. Lives are more important then the airport shops!
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: How Long Will It Be Only Ticketed Passengers

Fri Aug 02, 2002 2:41 am

Concerning the businesses that operate on the secured side:

Even before 9-11, it seems that most of the business came from passengers and employees at the airport. Today, both of these groups are still allowed through.

Let's see what kind of businesses we have on the secured side. There are fast food places, sit-in restaurants, souvenir shops, newspaper-convenience item shops, currency exchanges, and some services such as barbers and shoe shine stands. In larger airports, a lot of "mall" stores such as Bath and Body Works have set up shop.

When it comes to the food, the prices are always higher than you would find them to be in the same franchise outside the terminal. It is likely that someone is not going to go to the airport just to eat. The meeters and greeters would probably prefer that everyone either eats before they drop you off or after they pick you up anyway. As for the souvenir shops, convenience items, and service shops, these are clearly geared towards the passengers. They tend to offer things that would appeal to a traveller. Personally, I prefer not to go to airport and pay for a 8$ hamburger or a souvenir marked up about 300%. However, I might buy food or items at the airport while I am travelling.

All of the businesses in my concourse that were there before 9-11 are still there, and they are doing fine. In fact, this whole security issue might have inadvertantly helped them out. Since the lines in to security are often hard to predict and people are expected to get to the airport earlier for check-in, many people find that they have a lot of time on their hands when they pass through security. This has helped out the shops tremendously. Also, since food on domestic flights is on the decline, the restaurants and fast food places have done rather well. I would not worry too much the impact of ticketed passengers only past the checkpoint.