lehpron
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Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:40 pm

I almost see it as completely dangerous for aircraft to be painted skyblue. Aside from radar, does it not disappear in the sky?

Wait, is that why the bottom is not painted, or am I mistaken?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
A388
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:52 pm

I don't see your point Lehron, an airline's livery doesn't have to do anything with being seen on a radar. The transponder on an aircraft sends out a signal to the radar so its position can be determined. The colors of the airline livery does not have any influence on this. Pilots use the systems on board such as TCAS/ACAS or ATC instructions to determine an aircraft's position and what (immediate) actions should be taken in case of a possible conflict in the air.

A388
 
Guest

RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 1:03 pm

Basically any object can be picked up on radar. With the help of transponders, specific flying objects can be identified as individual flights.

The radar in Omaha's control tower even picks up trains across the river from the airport and cars on the airport perimeter road.
 
aviasian
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 1:10 pm

Lehpron: By your reckoning, the following are some of the airlines that are in trouble:

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines
United Airlines
US Airways
Royal Jordanian Airlines
Air Tahiti Nui


KC Sim
Bangkok
 
bombayhog
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 2:10 pm

Note that he said "aside" from radar. He was talking about other planes seeing it in the sky, I think.
 
flynavy
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 2:34 pm

Simply put, it's not an issue.

Later,
Chris in Orlando
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
aduum
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 3:08 pm

I think it could be an issue.... Having flown small planes around and when the tower tells you to visual something, it is often hard to find a white reflective plane.

I know they are a lot bigger, but all I am saying is when the pilots have to spot the other planes as in a holding pattern or something, the colour could be a factor which makes it a little harder.
 
wilcharl
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 3:17 pm

i can see we have some non pilots in here... as a pilot i want all aircraft painted international orange... more so in GA when you are opperating under visual flight rules, but even with heavy iron, visual identifcaition is still important... is it a huge issue? no... are other airlines as hard to see? yes... are there airlines easier to see ? yes...

 
bells
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 3:20 pm

Aircraft painted white should be banned too. How can they be seen in cloud?
 
wilcharl
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 3:26 pm

bells is right.. ban white aircraft. air france take note..

Long live the red tails of NW
 
jwenting
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 3:51 pm

Korean is less visible in haze then dark painted aircraft. But to counter that it's more visible against dark clouds (say thunderstorm clouds).

As to black, the RAF experimented and found that glossy black aircraft are the most visible. Even more so than dayglow orange. That's why all RAF Hawk jettrainers were repainted glossy black.
I wish I were flying
 
bells
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:02 pm

Except at night time.
 
Leo
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:38 pm

As a child I was told CP Air painted its aircraft to be more visible in case of an unscheduled landing in the Arctic....

Perhaps all airlines should be TOLD to adopt this paint scheme IMMEDIATELY.


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ctrl_alt_del
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:09 pm

The blue liveries of the Preussag group, i.e. Brtiannia, Hapag Lloyd should also be banned. I seem also to remember that in th 80's Air UK had an awful
blue colour scheme which was changed due to problems concerning visibility?
 
voodoo
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 8:06 pm

Bells,
The RAF Hawk black trainers also have yellow flashes for night time viz.
Police helos in the UK have also adopted this livery.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
N79969
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:32 am

Anti-collision, strobes, and position lights are there for a reason. They do the job.
 
flight152
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 2:20 am

Aircraft painted white should be banned too. How can they be seen in cloud?

You don't rely on visual sights when your in clouds. You can't see anything, doesn't matter what color.
 
lehpron
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 5:32 am

"You don't rely on visual sights when your in clouds. You can't see anything, doesn't matter what color."

Then why have windows in the cockpit at all? We are in the 21st century, dump'em. I am sure there are drag penalties for having to design them in the first place. Seriously, not that I was not before, I figure that the visual perception that the plane is not there because of it's color should be looked into especially when it comes out of nowhere all of a sudden! But wait, isn't the ATC in the stone age?  Smile Pilots must depend on each other, and color matters!
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
flynavy
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 8:34 am

The color of aircraft would have been an issue early last century. If any pilot RELYS on visuals, then he shouldn't be in that seat. Pilots must depend on each other to trust what their instruments and electronics tell them. The recent crash involving the TU154/757 show the importance of this. It's time we trust our technology.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
flight152
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:39 pm

Then why have windows in the cockpit at all? We are in the 21st century, dump'em. I am sure there are drag penalties for having to design them in the first place.

I was talking about when you were in CLOUDS. You DON'T rely on visual sights in those cases, otherwise, you would see a lot more accidents. I'm glad your not my pilot.  Laugh out loud
 
justplanesmart
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 1:29 pm

My understanding is that Northwest Airlines first began painting the tails on their aircraft red when they began flying to Alaska for the purpose of increased visibility should an aircraft go down in the frozen wastes.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
AerLingus
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 2:12 pm

I think CPAL (whose scheme I hold in the highest esteem), was done that way because they didn't have the time and energy to put toward painting the planes in a polyester plaid scheme.

It's not an issue with the KAL planes. If it was, pilots still have TCAS.
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fly_yhm
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 2:22 pm

Maybe that why Air Canada's Zip is going to have such bright colors with the exeption on the blue whats also funny it that Korean and KLM I like because of the blue
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flynavy
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 2:23 pm

This is absurd! Airlines don't paint aircraft orange or red so they can see the wreckage of their downed aircraft. The purpose of an airline's livery is to ADVERTISE and/or develop a CORPORATE IMAGE easily recognizable and appealing to the customer's eye!
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
DatamanA340
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:14 pm

When you recognize some orange-painted airplane flys against you, you're already dead. Isn't it right?
 
justplanesmart
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:08 pm

What you said may be true today, Flynavy, but in the 40's there was much less thought put into advertising/image with regards to the livery. Most carriers simply left their planes in bare metal, with the carrier's name and logo placed on the aircraft in a modest manner. Yes, now the red tail for Northwest is its corporate image, and should they introduce a new scheme soon (as rumors have stated), they will keep their tails red. It is the origin of the red-tail scheme that I mentioned earlier. I wish I could remember the source of the story, so I could verify whether the visibility benefit was the reason behind the red tails, or if it is just an airline legend.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:34 pm

Well all I have to say is that this cant blend into the sky
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ahlfors
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:35 pm

BWIA 772, perhaps so, but it sure can blend into the coral blue waters of the caribbean. so if you were flying above it, maybe you'd have some problems.

But seriously, I don't think color schemes seriously impair the visibility of aircraft.
 
777-200
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:51 pm

Hmmm, I'd think you'd have to be pretty stupid to miss a 510,000lb Aircraft flying ANYWHERE Big grin
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flyingbronco05
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RE: Korean Air Livery: Daytime Stealth?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:55 pm

From the many ATC's I have talked to, they love AA's scheme cause it reflects great in the sun and moon and they hate UA's cause its difficult to see in storms and coming out of clouds. Just my two cents.
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