japanguy
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Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 10:54 pm

When did this happen? I guess I never researched it in depth before, but assumed that either UA or AA was the largest US carrier across the pond. I came across this in the marketing babble on the bottom of a press release the other day. What exactly is the largest run for DL across?
 
MEA-707
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Fri Aug 02, 2002 11:01 pm

It happened in 1991 already when Delta took over the still big transatlantic network of Pan Am from JFK. Later on they kept expanding from Atlanta. Delta flies to almost all medium and big sized European cities you can think of; Moscow, Athens, Venice, Barcelona, Manchester, Dublin, Munich, you name it. And it has an effective alliance with Air France. United and American always had a smaller presence in Europe and only fly to a handfull of cities. But don't forget Delta is smaller than United and American in the Transpacific and Latin flights.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
japanguy
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 2:58 am

Didn't some of those Pan-Am routes go to United? I thought that is how UA got access to LHR (and AA bought the rights from TWA). I might be mistaken, I have read a gazillion posts about this on a.net and I guess they haven't all sunk in.

I know that UA flies to most of the airports mentioned above. However, with United having something like 10 dailies from New York to London, I don't understand how Delta is bigger.....
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:23 am

UA does not fly to most of those cities.

DL flies to MAN,LGW,DUB,SNN,CDG,NCE,MAD,BCN,ZRH,BRU,AMS,VCE,MXP,FCO,FRA,MUC,STR,ATH,SVO,IST.

UA flies to
LHR,CDG,BRU,AMS,FRA,MUC,DUS,MXP.

Of course, UA is much larger than DL to London. But DL makes up for it with all the flights to secondary destinations.
 
NiteRider30
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:28 am

10 dailies from New York to London, eh? 3 is a more accurate number. 2 from JFK, and one from EWR.

-Mike
 
japanguy
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:30 am

My bad,

I was thinking of a BA release I just read when I pulled up the number 10.
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:37 am

in 1999 till up to 1st quarter 2002, United was the largest carrier across the Atlantic, in terms of passenger seats filled (revenue passenger miles).... Delta does have the most flights, but most are w/ 767-300s and -200s.... United's gains were made because of the 747-400 flights across the pond.

Anyway, Delta did retake the lead in both flights and passenger counts this year...
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bobnwa
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:45 am

In the first two months of 2002 which is the last available numbers, the rankings Trans-Atlantic by US carrier. This is by RPK (revenue passenger kilometer)

1. DL 3,558,917
2. UA 3,227,478
3. AA 2,838,080
4. NW 2,135,573
5. CO 2,029,324
6. US 1,131,381
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 4:40 am

Delta does have the most flights, but most are w/ 767-300s and -200s.... United's gains were made because of the 747-400 flights across the pond.

FYI DL doesn't fly the -200 international and never has. Does UAL have scheduled 744 transatlantic service anymore?
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
ord
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RE: SegmentKing

Sat Aug 03, 2002 6:00 am

United was never larger than Delta across the Atlantic, either in passengers carried or RPMs.

I get Air Transport World every month and check the stats. This just isn't true.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 6:35 am

While Delta does use 767-300ERs on many of its trans-Atlantic routes, they also make extensive use of 777s and MD-11s on these services. Not only do they serve more points in Europe non-stop from the U.S. than AA and UA, they also have major U.S.-Europe hubs at both JFK and ATL as well as non-stops from CVG to several cities across the pond.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 6:43 am

So lemme get this straight:

Pan Am sold its slots at SFO to United in 1991. SFO was Asia's gateway to the US through Pan Am. So United is the largest operator of flights to Asia for any U.S. carrier.

Pan Am sold its slots at MIA to American in 1991. MIA was Latin America's gateway to the US through Pan Am. So American is the largest operator of flights to Latin America for any U.S. carrier.

Pan Am sold its slots at JFK to Delta in 1991. JFK was Europe's gateway to the US through Pan Am. So Delta is the largest operator of flights to Europe for any U.S. carrier.

Hmmmmmm, verrrry interesting. I wonder where Northwest figures into all this.
 
clipper471
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 7:27 am

Nightcruiser, actually it's more like this...

22 April 1985 - Pan Am Chairman C. Edward Acker sells Pan Am's lucrative Pacific division, excluding Hawaii, to United Airlines for $750 million. The sale includes Pan Am's six leased L-1011 aircraft (delivered Feb 1986), eleven Boeing 747SP aircraft (seven leased; delivered Mar-Nov 1986), one leased DC-10 aircraft, 1,200 flight attendants, 410 pilots, about 100 managers and 1,000 non-U.S. employees in the Pacific. United would acquire routes from the U.S. to Asia and Australia. It would have authorization to fly nonstop from New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Honolulu to Tokyo, where Pan Am had developed a hub, and Hong Kong, cities in China, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand and the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand.

23 October 1990 - Pan Am announces it will sell its flagship routes between the U.S. and London (Heathrow) to United Airlines and two jumbo jets for about $400 million. The routes are London (Heathrow) to Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington, DC; London to continental European cities including Amsterdam, Berlin, Brussels, Hamburg, Helsinki, Munich and Oslo. Pan Am will keep routes between London and Detroit and Miami. United also will aquire Pan Am's route between Washington (Dulles) and Paris as part of the deal as well as pay up to $100 million worth of Pan Am tickets should Pan Am stop flying. The acquisition included two Boeing 747-200 widebody aircraft built for long-range flight. A marketing agreement brings United's MileagePlus frequent-flyer program together with WorldPass. Pan Am was currently the leading trans-Atlantic carrier with 14.1% of the market. TWA had 11.8%, British Airways PLC had 11.1%, Lufthansa had 6.8%, American Airlines Inc. had 5.5%, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines had 5.2%, Air France had 3.6% and Delta Air Lines Inc. had 3.5%.

12 August 1991 - In a $1.39 billion deal, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Cornelius Blackshear approves Delta Air Lines purchase of Pan Am Shuttle, its hub in Frankfurt,Germany its trans-Atlantic routes, jobs to about 6,600 of Pan Am's 17,300 employees, and forty-five of its aircraft, while making provisions for an independent, Miami-basedPan Am with fifty-one to fifty-four aircraft serving Latin America. A total of 6,900 of its employees would retain their jobs. Delta will invest $405 million of the sale amount in the reorganized Pan Am, amounting to a 45% ownership stake (the other 55% by creditors). Pan Am is set to emerge from bankruptcy protection on December 3.

04 December 1991 - Pan Am shuts down.

09 December 1991 - In bankruptcy court, United Airlines wins Pan Am's Miami hub and its Latin American routes for $135 million. It includes 1,000 jobs to former Pan Am workers.
 
clipper471
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 7:48 am

I believe American got the MIA hub from Eastern.
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 7:48 am

A friend of mine who usually flies Continental took a trip to London on Delta and said it was the worst service he'd ever experienced-- Compared to BA, AA, Continental and Virgin Atlantic.
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
Guest

RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 8:36 am

Oh, thanks Clipper471 for clearing that all up, hehe. Man, I feel so embarassed Embarrassment!
 
777gk
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 8:49 am

Hard to believe NW is carrying more pax across the Atlantic than we are. Do those numbers include codeshared KLM service, or is it simply because we operate smaller aircraft on less frequencies. As far as destinations served, we are the biggest out of NYC and second overall to Delta.

I think that data on NW should be double-checked. I'm not sure if it is accurate.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 8:59 am

I believe DL has the most European destinations out of the US carriers, only behind CO. While UA has a massive presence at LHR, it only flies to a handful of euro destinations, while DL flies to most of the major routes in europe. I don't think NW is anywhere close to UA,AA or DL, NW has a rather limited european presence.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:40 am

Delta:
JFK to Frankfurt, Paris, Madrid, Venice, Milan, Rome, Zurich, Amsterdam, Brussels, Moscow, Nice, Istanbul, and Athens year-round. Barcelona summer-only.

Atlanta to Frankfurt, London, Paris, Madrid, Milan, Rome, Zurich, Amsterdam, Brussels, Stutgart, Munich, Manchester, Dublin, and Shannon year-round. Barcelona summer-only.

Cincinatti to Frankfurt, Paris, and London year-round. Rome summer-only.

Recently axed trans-Atlantic routes include JFK to Stockholm, Munich, Dublin, Shannon, Lyon, Tel Aviv, Cairo, and Dubai and Boston to London.

American:
JFK to Paris, London, and Zurich year-round.

Dallas to Paris, London, Frankfurt, and Zurich year-round.

O'Hare to Paris, London, Frankfurt, Manchester, and Brussels year-round. Glasgow and Rome summer only. Birmingham service ends this October.

Miami to Paris, London, and Madrid year-round.

Boston to London year-round. Paris summer only.

St. Louis to London year-round.

Los Angeles, Raleigh, and Newark to London year-round.

Recently axed trans-Atlantic routes include O'Hare to Stockholm and Milan and Paris to St. Louis, San Jose, and Los Angeles.

USAirways:
Philadelphia to Amsterdam, London, Munich, Madrid, Rome, Paris, Frankfurt, and Manchester.

Pittsburgh to Frankfurt, Paris, and London.

Charlotte to Frankfurt and London.

Recently axed routes include Philadelphia to Brussels and Charlotte to Paris.

Northwest:
Minneapolis to Amsterdam and London.

Detroit to Amsterdam, London, Paris, and Frankfurt year-round. Rome summer-only.

Amsterdam to Newark, JFK, Seattle, Miami, Washington, D.C., and Boston.

United:
O'Hare to Amsterdam, London, Paris, and Frankfurt

Washington to Amsterdam, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Dusseldorf, Munich, Milan, and Brussels.

San Francisco to London, Paris, and Frankfurt

JFK, Los Angeles, Newark, Boston to London

Recentley axed routes include Denver to Frankfurt, O'Hare to Dusseldorf, and Los Angeles to Paris.

Continental:
Newark to Lisbon, Madrid, Rome, Milan, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Brussels, Birmingham, London, Glasgow, Manchester, Dublin, Shannon, and Zurich.

Houston to London, Paris, and Amsterdam.

Cleveland to London.

Recently axed routes are Newark-Stansted and Newark-Dusseldorf.

a.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:49 am

not to try and switch the pond here but going into asia who carries more?NW? or UA?
did someone say that AA carried more into asia?
all this european routes and flights got me thinking and i figured it was NW right?


ual 777 contrail
 
jimbobjoe
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:35 pm

Quick question Clipper471--Pan Am had some route rights to Africa as well--did those go to Delta with the European rights sale?
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:44 pm

Those numbers listed before had to include KLM with NWA.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
planefreak
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:45 pm

I work on the international concourse in ATL for DL. Let me tell you first hand that it is something to see to believe! I still amazes me at the number of paxs enplaned at the Worldport daily and on the E con itself!

planefreak
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 1:22 pm

Jimbobjoe,
Yes, the African route rights such as FRA-NBO which Pan Am was operating until 1991 did go over to Delta but have remained dormant since

UAl777contrail
UA is biggest across the Pacific followed by NW. AA is nowhere near. CO may be third due to its Micronesian network
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 1:56 pm

ORD,

I too get Air Transport World... I have seen the numbers. I might add I've received ATW for the past 3 years, and for free, considering my job. I used to get Aviation Daily, PlaneBusiness Banter, and other publications. United was in fact #1 year over year over Delta for 2 years in a row, until 1st quarter this year. United's lead was always by about 1 or 2% over DL's RPMs.

Anyway, facts are boring and don't belong on airliners.net. most people make up whatever they want to believe anyhow.
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
MAH4546
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 1:59 pm

Some African routes went to United. Pan Am's South Africa rights from Miami were part of the Latin American network and went to United, which still has them, dormant.
a.
 
nwa man
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 2:02 pm

777gk-

I was thinking the same thing, especially with all the CO flights from Newark to Europe.

The numbers must include tickets sold by NW for KL-operated flights, like MEM-AMS, LAX-AMS, etc...



NWA Man
Create your own luck.
 
UA744Flagship
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:18 pm

You are totally right about UA's Europe RPMs. I've been trying to explain that to people, they just don't understand. People can't accept facts here.

Pat,

There are not regularly scheduled UA 744 Flagship  Smile services to Europe at this time.
no wire hangers!
 
bobnwa
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 10:43 pm

777gk,
The Northwest numbers do not include KLM. FYI, the numbers for all of 2001 were.
Northwest

Passengers 2,721,000
RPK-------17,933.965,000

Continental

Passengers 2,640,000
RPK-------16,939,029,000

STT757

In 2001 UA was slighty larger than DL trans-atlantic measured by RPK
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 11:07 pm

I wonder if those numbers include Tel Aviv, if not I think adding it would put CO past NWA.

SInce this list is "carriers across the Atlantic" not carriers to Europe I would want to see Tel Aviv added.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
bobnwa
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sat Aug 03, 2002 11:19 pm

STT757,
The numbers include all flights from the US across the Atlantic ie: France,Turkey,India,Israel,Africa etc. Northwest is larger across the Atlantic than CO, not by much but still larger.
 
jimbobjoe
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 3:43 am

[more on African route rights]

Not sure why this fascinates me so much...but does anyone have a list of all of the ex Pan Am African route rights, and who has em now?

Can these rights ever die because they have been dormant for so long?
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 5:22 am

africa isn't profitable for US airlines due to unions  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Maybe southwest will go there, once Boeing has made the 737-1000ERX with 240 min ETOPS :P

As of right now, there are no UA 744's SCHEDULED (advance) to fly over the pond (atlantic). Most of the UA 744 operations are week-out swaps, sometimes 2 days out... friends @ UAL said that ORD/IAD needs about 30 hours to position a 744 flight crew for a swap, as well as find new lines for the displaced 777/763 flight crews.

-n
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DeltaSFO
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 5:29 am

Also, it seems like some people think UA did surpass UA in passenger enplanements. That's not accurate. DL did enplane more passengers than UA during the period when UA surpassed DL in rpms, and DL has been the leader in destinations served since the European division was inherited from PA.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Delta Is Top US Carrier Across Atlantic?

Sun Aug 04, 2002 6:47 am

patrick, we're not arguing who has more destinations, I think we're "bickering" over how to rate the "busiest" airline over the Atlantic, which even you know was United for a while. I think UA/DL will continue to battle it out for a few more years until both airlines suddenly go broke and all hell breaks loose.

-n
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