soontobepilot
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 9:18 am

Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 10:47 am

Hi All

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I just have to bring it back up after one of my recent trips. Here is the scenerio:

Place: Albequerque International Sunport (ABQ)
Suspect: A 2 year old toddler (im serious)
Punishment: Confiscation of the baby's pacifier, causing it to bawl, seperation
of the baby from it's parents, and the usual wand treatment

Now, I don't know about you, but when the suspicious-looking man with a frazzled beared, worried face, and traveling alone walked right by unquestioned, It made me wonder if "Racial Profiling Problems" will be the downfall of our airline system. It made me furious to see the little baby being hastled... like it is going to do anything? Also, the flight was a short one, to pheonix, and what kind of terrorist would target pheonix or Albequrque?
 
goboeing
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 10:55 am

I think the United State's government's approach to making air travel safer is just absolutely pathetic. It's just completely ridiculous! People will avoid it after a while.

Nick
 
Jj
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:02 am

After 9/11 everybody called for security, everybody said security was a sh** and needed improvement. Now that you got a better security, you say it's bulls***.

Don't you realize that a very smart terrorist, can hide a weapon inside a baby's toy? And, as he's a baby nobody would check him...so the weapon would get on board. I think that what they did is very smart. Everybody is complaining so much, that security will be reduced, and another attack will happen until you realize this is serious stuff.
 
A330_DTW
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 9:29 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:53 am

Unfortunately, racial profiling is the only way to go.

Some little old blue-haired lady from Palm Beach didn't hijack any airliner. No white middle-class American did, either. And it wasn't a band of African-American terrorists, either!

The U.S. needs to take a stand and say, Yes, racial profiling is unfortunate, but a certain race of people are historically known for terrorist activities in the Middle East, Israel and now the United States. Therefore, they will be searched and will have no recourse to sue, or file any sort of charges.

Forget frisking the old wheelchair-bound folks, babies, frequent fliers, etc.
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 11:58 am

JI - I just got back from a trip today, and I've got to say this...yes, the random security checks are bullsh*t. I flew Delta (very good experience), but I did notice that it was the boarding card reader and NOT any human who flashed "random check" for passengers to be screened. Yes indeedy do, a prolific terrorist can certainly make a deadly weapon out of a pacifier, but if he's really clever, he'll hang back and count out how many passengers make it before the "random" one is selected, then get in line and pass right on thru. IT'S A JOKE.
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 1:39 pm

By choosing people randomly for the more thorough searches, it only takes 3 - 4 terrorists per flight to assure that at least 2 will get through, especially if they stick together, assumung they make it through the initial screening.

During check-in, all pax should be screened automatically and transparently, logging information about their travel habits, type of ticket, where purchased, age, nationality, etc. When the passenger passes throught the metal detectors, additional data can be added by the attendant -- unusual behavior, etc. Then, when he is at the gate, the computer knows whether to select him for one last thorough search based on the data collected since his arrival, plus computerized background check in the police database. This would be the "profiling" part, but race is only one of many components. This way, the final check will identify the most likely candidates, and produce a better chance of apprehending a terrorist. This method would pick out all 4 terrorists in my example above. It will allow more sophisticated searches, because fewer people would be selected, and Security will not have to waste their time on the airlines' best, loyal customers and grannies visiting their grandkids, but focus on the higher risks.

This is very similar in concept to medical screening.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:29 pm

I think they should profile by age. 15-50 perhaps. BTW, I'm 35 y.o. white male and I almost ALLLLWAYS get checked. I've only flown about 8 times since 9/11 and of the 8, I was singled out 6 times.

Also, the idea of screening and random checks isn't necessarily to actually catch someone, but more to deter attempts. With security measures, wrong-doers tend to abort plans. That's the idea. Something will happen as soon as we get complacent again.
"Shaddap you!"
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 4:07 pm

The checks are designated random for legal reasons, and to avoid the obvious fact that there is racial profiling going on. If the only people getting checked were of arab descent, there would be more of an uproar than has already been seen. So what happens, is that they do random checks + what they deem as suspicious checks. This way the security line is filled with both types and avoids embarassment for all parties

Jeremy
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 4:17 pm

Jeremy, I think most americans would applaud loudly at the idea that security assets are being used more effectively by allowing them to use profiles of all natures. The only people who would bitch are the ACLU, and militant racists like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 4:40 pm

I am applauding along with them...don't worry..no criticism from me on this.

Jeremy
 
ahlfors
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:44 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Sun Aug 04, 2002 6:53 pm

I have to agree with Goingboeing with the counting method. I was on an AA flight JFK-SJU in December, and there were two lines for boarding. From one line they pulled random checks, from the other not. So, not wanting to be hassled by a random check, I figured, hey, maybe I'll take the line with no random checks. What I'm wondering is do they really think that terrorists are stupid enough not to realize something like this and use it to their advantage?
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 4:29 am

Delta-flyer,

If ONE of them gets caught being a terrorist the entire flight will be re-screened.
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:34 am

If ONE of them gets caught being a terrorist the entire flight will be re-screened

Good point, I didn't think of that.

Then a determined terrorist group can just board several flights, with the chance of a random hit being maybe 10%. Still, pretty good odds for the terrorist.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
lubcha132
Posts: 2642
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:37 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:43 am

its not like "free upgrade to every 16th person"...random searching is fairly ok, but you should still check all the guys that fit the 9-11 description.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:20 am

Racial profiling has been discussed to death on this forum. It comes across as the usual racist screaming against "others" by the usual band of racist culprits on here. Just in case your little cerebella haven't contemplated these ideas, there are security concerns at U.S. airports that go beyond the usual "lets flog all Arabs/Muslims/Those who may bear a slight resemblance to them" rant.

And as far as searches of non-Arab/non-Muslim individuals is concerned, random searches existed much before 9-11, actually ever since the 1960s. There were numerous bombings perpetrated in the US by upstanding white males to collect insurance checks, and lets not forget that this country is full of nut cases of every stripe (the Unabomber, the late Tim McVeigh and his band of cohorts, the Anthrax culprits, etc.) Furthermore, a rather nasty inflight explosion on board an ElAl jet was thwarted in the 1980s at London Heathrow when security checked a rather sweet freckle-faced English lass who was unwittingly carrying a semtex bomb for her Iraqi terrorist boyfriend.

Your arguments are so absurd on here. You seem to think that because an ethnic profile may be indicative of a potential terrorist, lack of that ethnic profile is indicative of sheer innocence. Unfortunately, this corrolary is bizarre. Just stand in line like everyone else, and if you're screened and inconvenienced in a minor way don't blame the perfectly innocent Muslim women in line behind you who may not have been strip searched. After all, if it is just a minor inconvenience for an Arab-American/the ACLU/ and all those people you berate, it should be a minor inconvenience for you too, right?

Sometimes I wonder if some of the people on here ever graduated from Grade school.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
tzMSP
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 9:23 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 9:23 am

JI - I just got back from a trip today, and I've got to say this...yes, the random security checks are bullsh*t. I flew Delta (very good experience), but I did notice that it was the boarding card reader and NOT any human who flashed "random check" for passengers to be screened. Yes indeedy do, a prolific terrorist can certainly make a deadly weapon out of a pacifier, but if he's really clever, he'll hang back and count out how many passengers make it before the "random" one is selected, then get in line and pass right on thru. IT'S A JOKE.

Well, I certainly can't speak for all airlines, but I know from first-hand experience that many travelers are already pre-selected long before they check-in and that there is nothing random about it. The TSA considers hundreds of factors (of which we gate agents have only figured out a mere 10 or so) which will ensure you are selected for additional security. Destination information, one-way vs. r/t travel, name (compared to black lists) are just but a few which will trigger a 'selectee' status. (I've also noticed many people who change their itenerary at the last moment, such as flying revenue standby for an earlier departure,) will trigger a selectee status.

As for counting passengers in line, I have personally had 7-8 selectees all board in a row and all of them get pulled aside; a gate agent also has the authority to make someone a selectee based on actions of the customer/passenger, or if there are simply not enough people being searched at the time. So it's a combination of random selections, human intuition, and TSA's selection process which determine if your checked luggage is submitted to CTX scans and your person and carry-on baggage is subject to additional screening.

It's not nearly as simple as picking every third person in line.

In addition, no person may be 'cleared' from 'selectee' status for any reason, with rare exceptions. Law enforcement officers, 2-year olds or other small children are not in any way exempt from additional security screening if they are selected. The only exceptions to my knowledge are FBI, CIA, NSA, US Marshalls, or any member of the military on active duty with written orders in hand. In order to be removed from the list, I actually have to call a GSC to clear the entry. (It cannot be processed locally.)

But this is just my insight from behind the ticket counters and gates of Minneapolis-Saint Paul International...

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy tzMSP
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE:

Mon Aug 05, 2002 9:57 am

Profile like the rest of the world.
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 10:29 am

TzMSP - Well, maybe they do preselect in advance, although I am having a helluva time figuring out why exactly they think that my 78 year old mother and 81 year old mother in law are suspected terrorists. I say this because BOTH were given the wanding and "remove your shoes" treatment on recent trips. I've known my mom for nigh unto 45 years and I don't think she's even ever picked up a gun. Ditto for my mother in law that I've known for 16 years. Yet both got the "random search" flash card when handing the gate agent the boarding pass for their flights. I stand by my statement - THEY ARE A JOKE.
 
Guest

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 10:32 am

TzMSP - Well, maybe they do preselect in advance, although I am having a helluva time figuring out why exactly they think that my 78 year old mother and 81 year old mother in law are suspected terrorists. I say this because BOTH were given the wanding and "remove your shoes" treatment on recent trips.

Sometimes its the person you least suspect. Who would have thought that Patty Hearst would have shown up robbing banks after she was kidnapped? Nobody would have thought she would rob banks.

I've known my mom for nigh unto 45 years and I don't think she's even ever picked up a gun. Ditto for my mother in law that I've known for 16 years.

The gate agent has known both for about 5 seconds. They won't know what you know about them.

Yet both got the "random search" flash card when handing the gate agent the boarding pass for their flights. I stand by my statement - THEY ARE A JOKE.

They get the random search for reasons such as travel patterns, one-way, method of payment, etc. Just because you know everything about a person and don't think they are a suspect doesn't mean those who have never met them before should have the same point of view.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 10:51 am

Aren't we all missing the real point? Random searches are no big deal. I saw plenty of them being conducted a few weeks ago as I waited three hours at TPA for a connection on WN. In fact, I had so much time to kill that I actually timed how long the searches took. Almost all of them took less than three minutes! So what's the big deal?
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
jahckass
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:52 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:37 am

On a recent SFO-DWF trip on AA, my 2 year old daughter was randomly searched at the gate. Now If the search was truly random, then this is going to happen from time to time. My only problem with it is that when she went into the "line" of people waiting for the search, there were only two other people in this line, one was about 6 and the other, maybe 12, so of the people boarding - that i saw - three were randomly searched and the average age of this search was about 7.
Also, if a clever terrorist were to hide something on a 2 year old, wouldn't they just take the child as a lap child, bypassing any "random" searches on the kid?

 
Guest

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:49 am

Hey everyone, I have heard just about every good and bad point there is about re-screening at the gate. 1)Racial profiling, good because we sometimes can tell what race will and will not be terrorists. Bad because it takes away what this country is based on-freedom. 2)Screen people from 15-35. Bad in every way. Terrorists can come in all shape, sizes, ages and races. 3)The norm, pull every 4 or 5 people aside. I would call that so-so. People at the back of the line can tell if they will be picked or not. That enables terrorists to move about the line so they will not be re-screened. 4)Find out everything about them; age, sex, home, ect. This would be a pretty good solution to security. One problem. Everyone is a first flyer at one point. Those first flyers could be terrorists and have a clean record. This would let them board all that easier.

Lets just all face it, there is no easy solution to keeping terrorists off planes. They fight a whole different way then we do. Terrorists will get on planes, maybe not that often, but they will. We can prevent some but there will always be those few who will make it. Any flaws you find in my statement please point out so I can have right views of the world.

Chris
 
Guest

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 12:30 pm

common people keep talkin, i want to hear opinions
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:40 pm

The whole idiocy of the current screening, "improvements"  Insane has caused me to want more then ever to finish getting my PPL.

That was I can avoid all the airlines altogether.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
H. Simpson
Posts: 933
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:30 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:07 pm

"Random Searches" simply = "Racial Profiling"

I remember seeing a guy dressed in like Arab (hey, no offense here) was fully searched (laptop comp. opened, shoes off, bags searched) just before boarding a flight from Toronto to New York - LGA. And everybody behind him don't have to do the search, even there are rooms for it. Don't you call this racial profiling?
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 4:35 pm

H. Simpson,

Aren't you glad that guy WAS searched? I would be.

Don't you call this racial profiling?

You talk as if somehow it is a bad thing. It isn't. Historical statistical evidence shows that certain peoples which can be visually differentiated from others (call it racial if you wish) are more likely than others to use terrorist tactics.

But Racial profiling is only a part of the profiling that needs to be done. It's not just appearance, but behaviour, destination, origin, answers to basic questions asked at checkin, etc. And yes, someone clearly of middle-east origin definately needs a good once-over.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4810
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:19 pm

What it boils down to is that the political correctness police have such a hold on this country that we are willing to traumatize small children just so we won't "offend" anyone. About six months ago a saw a four year old little girl go through the extra screening at the gate. The poor thing was terrified. I wonder if the people on that flight felt safer knowing that four year old underwent extra scrutiny.

On that same trip I had my bags undergo "additional security". Let's see, I work on the airlines aircraft but for some reason someone decided I needed to be looked at more closely. Makes sense to me!
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Mon Aug 05, 2002 8:22 pm

Simpson. Neither my mom or mother in law was dressed like an Arab. For those of you who justify this nonsense of checking the elderly and infants...if my mom was going to "rush" the cockpit to takeover the plane, we'd most likely land before she made it... she doesn't move all that fast. I'd add that in BOTH cases for my mom and mother in law, BOTH were travelling alone. They didn't have the big bad terrorist son travelling with them. So...in the event that a mean evil terrorist planted a 44 magnum on my mom while she was waiting in the gate area so that he could retrieve it once she got on the plane, then yes, the searches work. But you've just been thru a metal detector and wanding at the security checkpoint. The second search is a waste of time. And do you not have just as good a chance of a terrorist slipping right past the "random" checkpoint as you do of a grandmother or infant being caught with a switchblade?
 
adh214
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:07 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:31 am

There are statistical methods to use both random screening and profiling.

For example, there are 100 factors that could make you a terrorist. Of these each has a different weighting. The factors could be race, frequency of travel, age, gender, nationality, purchase method, etc. Each of these factors is assigned a score. This is then multiplied by a randomly generated number. If you are above a certain score you are screened. If you are below you are not screened. This means that you will not always be screened if you are a 28 year old Arab buying a one way ticket with cash and you will not always be passed if you are a 78 year old grandmother with a cane. However, the first passenger will be screened more frequently than the second.

Now of course, the factors and the scoring cannot be public otherwise people will try to game the system. Thus, we have these endless debates about what is fair when in fact it is all statistics.


Andrew

BTW, the best way to make a truly random search is to shuffle a deck of cards. As each passengar approaches the gate, they flip over the top card. If it is an Ace they are searched if not they can board. Of course this might work best at Las Vegas but at least no can bitch about it not being random.

 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:28 am

The random searches are like putting a band-aid on a deep cut, it helps some, but doesn't exactly fix the problem. Many terrorists are smart, they use the weaknesses of the system to their advantage. Take Pan Am 103, the bomb was in luggage that came in off an Air Malta flight in FRA, and the bag was just thrown on the a/c like the other bags, no special searches, no positive bag matching, nothing. Why did the bomber do this in this way? Because they knew that U.S. airlines didn't tend to doing bag matches on flights. 9/11, the hijackers use boxcutters (which were within the allowed 3" or less rule for knives onboard a/c) to hijack four a/c and do the destruction they did. Knives under 3" in length were allowed because when they started using metal detectors in U.S. airports, no knives were allowed at all; the 3" and under rule was as a result of the airlines. They complained that their pilots couldn't bring knives onboard (which they considered a tool) for any cockpit mx that may occur in flight. The gov't relented, and opened up a huge loophole.
People may not like the idea of profiling, but it may come down to this. How many more people will have to die in terrorist acts before the rest of America wakes up to the fact that maybe we ought to be more selective with our random searches?
 
Guest

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:39 am

>>No white middle-class American did<<

I know, ever since Muhammad McVeigh destroyed the federal building in OKC, to Samir Walker joining Al Qaeda, all it has been here are Muslims, Muslims, Muslims!
 
Transtar
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 1999 5:51 am

What About The Idiocy Of Unrandom Searches

Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:11 am

I was flying back in December 2001 and was checking in at a Continental e-ticket stand at Washington National (which is supposed the have the tighest security). Quickly, very quickly, I noticed that the e-ticket baggage agent at the counter was putting every e-ticket bag checked bag through the scanner. None of the other agents at the regular check-in positions were scanning any of their bags. I pointed out to the e-ticket agent when I got to front saying that there was really no point in scanning the bags if he was the only one doing it. Any terrorist with any sense of a brain would have noticed the pattern. He responded by saying, "Yeah, I know, none of the other agents like to scan their bags." I responded back by saying "There's realy no point then, as anyone worried about getting their bagged scanned would simply go to another line." He didn't heed my criticism and went on scanning every bag.

I'm sorry, but without the implementation of even a modicum of an effective, profiling based, interview centered security process, there's really no point in implementing cosmetic changes. Anyway, if these terrorists are smart, they will not use airplanes the next time around. Looking back at their pattern, they've used truck bombs, boat bombs, and have never struck the same target more than one incident.

Only place that has absolutely ship tight security at the airport is Israel and there is no way that US travelers would tolerate having to get to the airport 4-5 hours before an hour flight.
 
TimeForFlight
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2000 6:36 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 7:49 am

random screening is bullshit. the fact that board passes either have ***CLR*** on them or not in big bold letters doesnt really make anything a secret. ive flown nearly 20 flights since 9/11 and nothing has been changed significantly. sure, ive been screened, but if i had been carrying anything my boarding pass would have simply been my indication to get rid of it! the american system is pathetic and leave it to good ol george bush to let it fall to pieces again. he didnt want federal baggage screeners, he doesnt care about the safety of americans. he cares about his political future and what he's done to "protect" this country since 9/11 amounts to what my cats dropped in the litter box!
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:16 am

If security is done correctly at the first checkpoint, then why is "secondary screening" necessary? Here in Houston, the pervert screeners pulled aside every 12-year-old girl in line for "additional search", while every who fit the "profile" was allowed to pass untouched.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:28 am

This thread just makes me laugh. What do most of you sound like ???  Crying
Is 3 mins of your time really so important to you that you don't get searched ???. Does it really matter if you get searched 100 times ???

Terrorists hi-jacked not one, but FOUR a/c all on the same day from differant airports and managed to destroy 2 of the worlds tallest buildings killing thousands of people because security was so lax and now it's been tightened up, you STILL complain. What would you rather have ?.  Confused

Security can only be a deterrant no matter how tight it is, the most determind terrorists will find a way through, but the more security there is, the harder it makes it for them to do that.
You say that they wouldn't try that again, why not ?. Maybe that's what they are expecting, that people will think "oh they've tried that, they won't do it again", maybe they will just to 'rub it in' that the security is still crap.

From what I hear from our crews, the US security is still nowhere near up to UK and European standards - I'll find out for myself in 2 weeks when I go to MIA.
You guys need to decide what's most important, better security, or the potential for more hi-jackings.

Just my 2p's worth

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:36 am

Leezyjet...call me a fool, but until a grandmother or a 2 year old conducts a replay of 9/11, then "random" checks are bullshit. If you want to do a check before boarding the plane, check everyone. The odds of a grandmother toting a weapon are about the same as a potential terrorist slipping thru because they weren't the "random" selectee.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:45 am

Goingboeing,

If you don't like it, there is a simple solution - don't travel by air.

As has been said before, it's usually the most unlikely people that carry things onboard they shouldn't have, like the elderley German couple I had on my flight yesterday that were stopped with 4 razor blades in their bag and 2 pairs of scissors. How were we to know that they weren't going to pass those on to a more able person that could hi-jack the a/c ?.


"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:52 am

It appears that you incredibly important people (which includes the very important teenagers on here, who must be very, very important since you statistically appear to fly Business and First Class so very often) are ticked off that your white middle-class appearance (and your very very busy schedules) doesn't buy you a Get-Free Pass at Security, while, Gosh, that Middle Eastern looking chap over there (or is he Hispanic or Sri Lankan??? Oh well. Who cares??? He just looks like a guy in a Nic Cage flick) is just walking right through Security without being held at gunpoint by 4 marines !!

As I've said before, its 3 minutes of your lousy lives. Live with it. There will be plenty of time to go gawk at your Southwest 737 before boarding.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:53 am

Leezyjet...my point is...how do you know that a healthy, able bodied, blond haired blue eyed lunatic with 10 razor blades and 5 pairs of scissors got past the "random" check? What did the random check accomplish? If you want the options:

1. improve the first level security or
2. Subject everybody to a secondary check
 
wingman
Posts: 2795
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 9:30 am

I agree with Leezyjet and Jaysit 100%. You'd think half the nimnods on this thread had already forgotten the events of 9 months ago. I fly all the time and sometimes get the extra checks even though I'm as white as the Michelin Man and about as fast from Row 27 to the cockpit. But I don't complain because this extra security is happening for a reason, over 3000 of them to be exact. And checking babies, toddlers and the elderly is not only acceptable, it's plain common sense. Young children have been used as drug mules for years, what's to prevent the would be terrorist from slipping his weapon of choice into an unsuspecting traveler's clothing, carry-on baggage or stroller? Seems simple enough to me. Then just find that person once in cruise and in less than 10 seconds you're on your way.

So next time someone takes 3 minutes of your precious royal lives, think for a minute about the three thousand that were lost and consider that they MIGHT still be here if these same procedures were in place on 9/11.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 9:49 am

I a-m t-y-p-i-n-g- t-h-i-s s-l-o-w-l-y I don't disagree with stepped up security. But only a "nimnod" can believe that anything that is "random" is going to increase security. Either fix the initial checkpoints, or check everybody a second time. "Random" in and of itself implies that there is just as good a chance that a terrorist gets thru as it does that someone is stopped for a pair of scissors.

And hey random guys...on a trip last week that I was on with my family, including my mother in law..she had a pair of scissors that made it thru the first security check on the way out, and she wasn't "randomly" selected for screening for that flight or the connecting flight. The threat of the scissors was on board the plane. Thank GOD we weren't hijacked. On the return, the scissors were confiscated at the initial security checkpoint. RAndom is just that - random, which equals useless. Will it take another 9/11 to prove that?
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 10:23 am


Count me in on the thinking that the "random" search is full of crap.
I just recently returned from a vacation with my family, 15yr old and
2yr and my wife, and we got the "extra security", including shoe x-ray
luggage xray, gate search etc every time, but on this same trip I had a business meeting in the middle of it, so I booked the last minute, had no baggage and an open return, and you know what, I walked right through without even a second glance. Didnt even have to show ID at the gate to board the plane. Now tell me how travelling with a family, pushing a
stroller and lined up for the early boarding targets me as a "terrorist".
We had one bag x-rayed 3 times because the people at the machine
could not figure out what a Giant sucker was. I guess the key to
travelling is not to pack candy in your suitcase!
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
goingboeing
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RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 10:42 am

Just for grins, I looked up the Webster's version of "Random". After reading this, tell me if it makes you feel safer...I'll bold the terms I find most comforting:

Random - adj. 1. Having no specific pattern or objective; haphazard. Without definite method or purpose; unsystematically.


 
wingman
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RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 10:51 am

Hey, I also agree with you Goingboeing, but 100% security would cost more than the defense budget and would only be feasible in a totalitarian state. Freedom and security are not natural companions and one will always come at the expense of the other. The issue is how to find the best balance. In my opinion we have to cough up more dough at the airports and take this function away from the airlines. Next we just admit that profiling is a necessity. The ACLU will scream bloody murder but we have to remember that this is not our fault and was not initiated without good cause. We took a hit from a group of people with certain characteristics and backgrounds. If people with similar characteristics and backgrounds (on the surface!) are offended and outraged by this security measure, then they are free to move to another country. I'm very sorry but, again, not our fault. 3000 lives then and 270,000,000 lives in the future are inmeasurably more important than someone's feelings. I happen to hate the Atlanta Braves, but me and the rest of NY fans do not have any record of bombing the Braves stadium or flying jetliners into their hometown skyscrapers. Hate is one thing, but taking the step towards mass murder is another thing entirely and someone will have to suffer the consequences, however innocent they may be. In any case, three minutes of your life ain't such a high price. And before someone brings up McVeigh again, let me assure you that the FBI is camped squarely up every militia's ass all across this country. That FBI monitoring flies directly in the face of the right to free assembly, but someone has to pay the price for OK City and I agree it should be those that most closely fit the descriptions of McVeigh. The prior point is no different. It sucks that we have to do this but what we're protecting is life and a way of living it that is without question superior to Osama's brand of life. Take the West with all its faults and weigh it against life in Afghanistan under the Taliban. That's the choice.
 
GD727
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RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:32 am

I have argued with the extreme liberals about this in the Non-Aviation forum many times before. Racial profiling is necessary, many liberals think it is racist, but it is not. This is how I see it, most Arab people are just like normal, everyday people, however the terrorist group responsible for 9/11 (the Taliban of course) is completley made up of Arab people, so who are you gonna' look for? We do not profile Arabs simply because they are Arabs, but because the terrorist group responsible for 9/11 is completley made up of their race. They could always recruit members of other race and they have, but there are not many, so here is the solution: Profile all Arabs, and randomly check adults of other race, but check them much less frequently as we do now, leave the children and elderly people alone.

-GD727
Mmmm forbidden donut.
 
AgnusBymaster
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RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:52 am

I heard about this lady at ATL who was stopped at security because of her bottles of breast milk. She was required to drink all three bottles or be barred from boarding the airplane. Apparently, they thought there could be an explosive device contained within the bottles.

At the very least, they could have simply confiscated the bottles (which I would still consider ridculous). But, subjecting this person to this kind of public humiliation shows a clear abuse of power.
 
jaysit
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RE: Random Searches: The Stupidest Idea Ever

Wed Aug 07, 2002 12:44 pm

Even the Supreme Court has implied that race used as a factor among others does not violate civil rights laws in this country, and neither have liberals. Some of you on here don't realize that race and ethnicity are currently being used in security profiles at all U.S. airports, but they are used in tandem with other factors, like those mentioned on this forum. A Saudi born male travelling alone will probably get subject to a search more often than a little old lady from Osh Kosh. But an Arab-American frequent flyer who flies the Detroit - DC route on a weekly basis on the same airline will probably not (although those of you standing in line at the airport who know nothing about this individual are probably baying like wolves for his head on a platter). Neither will the Indian Computer programmer (who may look Arab to some of you shrieking Nimrods on here, but who the ticketing agent, security staff, and the computer profile will pass up on). If security and searches and profiling were left to the social geniuses on this forum, then anyone who doesn't look like Leonardo DiCaprio will be strip searched, whether or not they have anything to do with the Arab or the Muslim world or terrorism.

And how is a security agent supposed to know that any of you VIPs is not a terrorist? At a time like this other terrorist groups (composed of anti-government fringe groups for instance) may think that if airport security is merely directed against "those" people, then its easy street for the likes of them to create their own brand of havoc. Just because Al-Qaeda and their thugs are running rampant, doesn't imply that other groups are out baking cookies.
Atheism is Myth Understood.