FrequentFlier
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How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:27 am

Recently, speculation has arisen that a "whooshing" sound could be heard coming from the front of the 757 during the hijacking and subsequent murder of the passengers of flight 93 on 9/11/01. The NY Times reported that flight 93 was flying at low altitude when the famous "heroes of flight 93" forced their way into the cockpit. In fact, one of the passengers told his wife that there was a gun on board.

Is it remotely possible that either someone opened a door or window or shot at the fuselage of the 757 causing a massive decompression that forced the plane down during the struggle?

What do you think about this theory, or any other theory of how UAL93 came to its tragic end?
 
SQ325
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:30 am

An Airliner doesn't crash because of a rapidy compresion!
You level off @ 10000ft when you have a compresion!
The guys enterd the cockpit there was a fight they lost controll and thats it!
 
FrequentFlier
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:34 am

It wouldn't crash if someone fired a bunch of shots into the fuselage or into the controls?
 
Ralgha
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:39 am

Shots into the fuselage: no.
Shots into the controls: maybe.
Hit the ground: yes <-- this is what happened.
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SQ325
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:41 am

you would need a M16 to shot the controls of a B757 to damage them that the AC would crash!
And if it wouldn't crash in that way,that you couldn't find a piece longer than 20cm.
 
Guest

RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:08 am



I heard tell that it just sort of dove into the ground & that was all she wrote. I do so wish however that the media would stop playing up how much those clowns were supposedly heroes. I'll just bet that if the same thing happened, but they ended up flying to a mall or hospital, instead of the woods, they would have just blamed it on the hijackers then.
 
hawkeye2
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:13 am

The hijackers crashed it into the ground after the pax entered the cockpit; this was documented in a Newsweek article in December 2001, based on leaked CVR recordings.
 
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STT757
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:19 am

Wow for a fellow NJ resident that was a shitty statement Silverangel.

Im proud of what the folks aboard that flight did, an older gentleman from up the street from me died on the flight. He probably didn't do much to fight the hijackers, although he was in fantastic shape for his age. He was going to Yosemite for a hicking/ camping trip like he did every year since he retired.

And I was in Princeton at the Forrestal village Marritott the day they let the families hear the audio, although I wasn't alowed inside the conference rooms.

The families indicate that the tapes support the overtaking of the cockpit scenario, and it also displayed the evil acts of Murder the hijackers performed on a Women who was heard sreaming for her life.

Im proud of what they did, Im not proud of what you just said.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
heavymetal
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:23 am

I do so wish however that the media would stop playing up how much those clowns were supposedly heroes. I'll just bet that if the same thing happened, but they ended up flying to a mall or hospital, instead of the woods, they would have just blamed it on the hijackers then.

But that's not what happened. UA 93 went down in about as harmless a place as you can find, from all rational guesses because the hijackers knew their time at the controls of the 757 was coming rapidly to a close, courtesy of aforementioned 'clowns'. It did not hit a mall or a hospital or, if memory serves here, the White House or the Capital.

If those people were 'clowns', Bozo's got something to be proud of.

(rolls eyes disgustedly)
 
wannabe
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:09 am

First of all, ignore Silverangel. Never give any idiot any attention, they ain't worth it.

Based upon what little has been leaked, my guess (and this is just a guess) is that the hijackers realized that they were not going to be able to hold off the passengers until they got to Washington. As the passengers got into the cockpit, the hijackers started to place the plane into a dive. The "wooshing" sound was probably noise genereated by the nose of the plane as it went beyond a normal speed for the altitude it was at. It sounds as though the plane was either inverted or in a dive with passnegers yelling to roll it over and/or pull it up. I doubt the wooshing sound was a rapid decompression. But not having heard the tape, this is pure conjecture.
 
Guest

RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:15 am

So, what you are saying is that you wouldn't mind if that crashed into your house/appartment etc? Are you volunteering your residence for the next time something like that occurs? Ok then.
All I said was that I am sick of people being played up or down by a one-dimensional and often fickel media. What happened happened, either way get over it & while you are at it you can get over the fact that what happened was quite reckless.
Heavymetal, I had always heard that it was crashed by PAX, who of course, always know when a plane is over a deserted unpopulated area, and would never accidentally blunder into a neighborhood. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong & the terrorists really did it then. If not, then it was a stupid thing to do, & there was nothing brave about it.
Hawkeye, I heard a rumor that those recordings have been released to the public, any truth to that?
 
Guest

RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:33 am

On a upcoming new release book, it has some description on how UA93 crashed.

The main conclusion on how UA93 crashed is The terrorists were forced to crashed the plane because the cockpit was almost opened.

There were 2 passengers on board who knows flying theory. 1 of them was a retired ATC, while the other 1 have pilot's license on board UA93. Both of them were trying to get control of the doomed 757.


The terrorists thought they successfully controlled the plane at the first place and announced the plane has been hijacked. After being notified by their relatives about the catastrophic event in NYC and Washington, the passengers decided to fight back.

Passengers were throwing dishes, glass cups, heavy leather shoes at the terrorists. The cabin was full of breaking utensils.

Then the flight attendants begin to pour hot water towards the hijacker. When they're running out of hot water, they throw the bottle instead.

Terrorists suddenly went into the cockpit and locked the door. At least 4 people has been killed at this time. The passengers and crews begin to use the food carts with huge force, trying to break the cockpit door. The cockpit door was almost opened.

At the same time when the door was almost opened, one of the terrorist announced "END THIS FLIGHT". Moments after, the plane crashed.
 
flynavy
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:39 am

There is another theory that states flight 93 was shot-down by fighter jets. For more information, visit http://www.flight93crash.com/. I personally don't know what to believe, although I do think there is a strong possibility the 757 was shot-down on September 11. Regardless if the passengers retook the cockpit, there was no way for anyone to know this. Remember, also, that flight 93 was on a course towards the general vicinity of Washington, D.C. and fighter jets WERE scrambled in the general direction of flight 93. In addition, parts from the airplane were found 8 miles from the impact site. If it were the case that flight 93 was shot-down, the government would keep it secret. We may never know.

Later,
Chris in Orlando
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
762er
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:45 am

Silverangel: I don't know if you heard about the phone conversation certain passengers had with their loved ones before the plane crashed, but it was clear through those conversations that they were going to do everything they could to save as many lives as possible even if it meant that they would have to sacrifice their own. Just the fact that they tried, makes them heros in my eyes. Not only did they try, but they were also successful. Have a little respect for those who died in an effort to save lives. That statement you made makes me ashamed to call myself your fellow American citizen.
 
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STT757
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:53 am

Those F-16s (3 or four of them) were scrambled from Langley AFB in Southern Virginia near Hapton Roads.

Flight 93 went down in Somerset County PA, still quite a Distance from Washington DC. And even further from Langley AFB, with lots of airtraffic still in the air and Washington just minutes from IAD, DCA, BWI and other smaller airports it would have been irresponsible of the F-16s (from the North Dakota ANG who were at Langley) to left Washington vulnerable to persue a "possible" hijacking.

Also there were eye witnesses who saw flight 93 roll over and crash nose first into the ground, the fact that no wreckage was found outside the hole where the aircraft impacted indicates that the aircraft was not hit by a missle.

Remember there were several "possible hijackings" that day, one was a DL 767-200 that made an emergency landing in CLE.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Guest

RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:20 am

767er you also put shame to being called an American. Silverangel has a right to voice her opinion here just as you do, without being belittled just because you do not agree with what she has to say.

Everyone has their theories about what happened and what the passengers did. Just because someone on this forum does not think they were heroes or anything special does not mean he or she is any less of a person.

In your mind she is just an asshole at a computer who you think doesn't deserve to be here, but you know nothing about her. Lighten up and open your mind, not everything is as perfect as you want to believe.
 
flynavy
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:36 am

STT757:

There were more than three fighter jets scrambled! Jets were scrambled from Otis ANG Base (in OHIO) and Langley. Are you denying the possibility of such an event occuring (the shoot-down of flight 93)? There is no definite answer from the government as of yet. The majority of people are using this "hero" idea as a scapegoat. I recommend viewing this timeline of events: http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_timeline.html.

There was a sonic-boom recorded in PA on Sept. 11, 2001. The following is quoted from http://www.flight93crash.com/.

The relatively obscure field which considers the seismology of supersonic aircraft has produced something of a smoking gun in the mystery surrounding Flight 93's final moments. Evidence from the seismic record indicates there was at least one supersonic warplane within striking distance of Flight 93 on the fateful morning of September 11, 2001. A signal exhibiting the seismic signature characteristic of a passing sonic boom was recorded at 9:22 A.M. local time by an earthquake monitoring station in southern Pennsylvania. This station is just 60 miles from the abandoned stripmine in Somerset County where the Boeing 757-200 hit the earth at 10:06. (for more of this article, read http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_seismic_event.htm)

Later,
Chris in Orlando
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
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STT757
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:37 am

It's one thing to express your opinion, it's another to insult somebody you don't know by calling them "clowns".
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Guest

RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 10:29 am

Well...maybe they were actually clowns. You know, like birthday parties and stuff.







 Smile
 
Beefmoney
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:05 am

I too am offended by what Silverangel said. What if the passengers on flight 93 just said "We might cause the plane to crash into a house, so we better not try to take down the hijackers" and then the UAL 757-200 was flown into the Capitol Building, or the White House, destroying some of the most recognizable and meaningful buildings in the entire world, and killing who knows how many more innocent civilians. Today, those great structures still stand. Do you know why? Because of the heroics of those brave pax. I can not think of an America without the White House or the Capitol Building. I salute those passengers.

God bless,
Michael Hawkins
 
762er
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:16 am

AZO/DTW: Yes, she does have the right to express her opinion and I have the right to express mine. How dare you tell me to be ashamed of being an American. You will find few people as prideful of and dutiful to their countries as I. You yourself are being a hypocrite by telling me that I am in the wrong. Sorry I'm trying to defend the reputations of people who died bravely and honorably. I'll just let them get insulted and disrespected from now on. I apologize for my bitter tone, but this subject is touchy to me because of the family and friends I lost to 9/11. I will not accept people who died for their country being disrespected. Being an American is about standing up for what is good and noble, not being politically correct and accepting getting spat on as is the trend these days. This is my opinion and I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I don't like to get personal and I'm sorry that this post has. I have to defend myself because this is an issue I feel very strongly about.
 
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STT757
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:40 am

The strongest evidence that flight 93 was not shot is the fact that Cheney was very adament on Meet the Press that he had given the order to do so if neccesary, and that the American public would have been understanding and supportive under the circumstances.

Sacraficing 50 or so passengers compared to the hundreds or thousands that would have been killed if the aircraft had crashed into a large office building or nearby three mile Island.

There is no reason to hide that kind of information, because it would not hurt anyone. On the Contrary the fact that Bush had quickly given Chenney the go ahead to give such orders shows great courage, something that was plentiful amongst many Americans that day.

Fly Navy as I understand it the only units on "5 minute strip alert" on the East Coast were Langely and the Massachusets ANG out of the Cape Code area.

The Vermont ANG and NJ ANG 177th were not on strip alert but managed to scramble aircraft within an hour, the Vermont ANG were first over NYC and the NJ ANG responded to DC.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
flynavy
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:05 pm

Then how do you explain the seismic recording? Were there any earthquakes in PA on September 11? I didn't think so.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
AlaskaMVP
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 1:16 pm

Is this the dumbest discussion ever? Supposedly "there was a gun on board', or the plane was "shot down". But we have a clear cockpit voice recording recovered with sounds of struggle until the flight crashed, but no sounds of gunshots or explosions, no witnesses on the ground to a huge fireball from an exploding missile, nada... In america I am proud we are free to believe in conspiracy theories, and shoot your mouth off like SilverAngel, but it doesn't make either any less stupid Smile

Hey FlyNavy, don't believe all the bullcrap you read on the web, those "facts" on the web site you linked to were likely written by a 14 year old...
 
Beefmoney
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 2:11 pm

I dont quite understand how the sonic boom gives evidence for flight 93 being shot down. There quite easily could have been a fighter going supersonic at that time, perhaps intercepting flight 93 or another aircraft that was under suspicion, or any number of other things.
 
AZFAN
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 2:33 pm

STT757,
I never heard about the possible hijacking of the DL 767-200 that made the emergency landing in CLE, what are the details about that flight?
 
sudden
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 6:15 pm

As I remember from the ATC tape, they talked about smoke coming from the fuselage before it crashed.
Smoke don't come from a plane without a reason!!!

It all comes down to speculations.
I think the true story, as I see it, went down in the ground when UA93 crashed.
That's also why all these discussions end with a fight. No one knows, but everybody wants to know, me included.
The true story might be known by Mr. Bush and his staff. And if they know, and haven't told the public about it yet, they will never do it.

Regards.
Sudden
When in doubt, flat out!
 
globemaster
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:35 pm

Sept, 06, time to calm down a little and remember all the victims, because that's what we DO know...they are all victims.

Even if the passengers were all sitting in their chairs, scared to death and didn't do anything, there is no reason to forget the word that you Americans seem to love most: respect.

They were victims to the worst terrorist attack ever, not too many people know what really happened. Maybe the media played a little too much with all those theories, fragments and rumors.
BUT, nobody of those passengers told anybody what a big hero he was, nobody of them was overdoing or even lying, in fact nobody of them got the chance to tell anybody about what happened.

Now give me one reason again to call them "clowns".
Calm down, just remember the pictures you saw on TV and hope that it never happens again.

From Germany,
Peter.
 
RP TPA
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:11 pm

UA93 was definately shot down by a missle. Pierre Salinger told me so the other day.
 
sudden
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:33 pm

Excuse my ignorance, but who is Pierre Salinger?
When in doubt, flat out!
 
clipper471
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:31 pm

AZFAN, the manager of tactical operations at the FAA ATC System Command Center in Herndon, Virginia is quoted in the Dec-17-2001 Aviation Week & Space Technology...

"...Once we started putting those feelers out, we started getting more and more calls about bomb threats, about aircraft we that we had lost communication or radar identification with... We had a [whiteboard] on the operational floor, and we used it to put down the call signs of various aircraft that we had gotten reports on... We were tracking 11 aircraft that we had gotten unusual information on, that we thought seemed worthy of keeping a closer eye on." Two of the 11 were AAL77 and UAL93.

The anomalies that caused controllers to flag the other 9 aircraft were explained later to Herndon's satisfaction.

One of those 9 was DAL1989, a Boeing 767-323/ER, N189DN. Departed BOS at 8:05am for LAX.
 
clipper471
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:35 pm

Correction... N189DN is a Boeing 767-332/ER.
 
Guest

RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 12:21 am

. I apologize for my bitter tone, but this subject is touchy to me because of the family and friends I lost to 9/11.

I'm sorry, I had no idea that makes your opinion more legitamate. Fact is, you do not know where I am coming from either, so it's probably best not to assume that just because someone doesn't agree with you, that alone means they don't have very strong ties to the issue at hand. Don't waste time responding, I will not see things your way, just accept that.


AZODFW, it is that right which makes this country better than many others. My concern though is that lately there is a lot less tolerance of "minority opinions". I am however glad that some people here understand this, even if they may not agree with the opinions of the hour (that is what it's all about after all). Godspeed.
 
ABQ757
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:03 am

The Smurfs shot it down with thier Mushroom shaped tank.
 
jaysit
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:26 am

Apparently crashed at 575 mph inverted at a 45 degree angle into soft ground. The first 30 feet of the aircraft including the cockpit shattered on impact, the remaining 130 feet of the 757 accordioned into a crater less than 30 feet in depth. Not pretty. I don't know if any bodies or identifiable remains were ever found.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Pilot1113
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"Among The Heros"

Wed Aug 07, 2002 2:52 am

A new book has come out that has put forth the best scenario yet as to what happened aboard UAL93.

Contrary to popular belief UAL93 was NOT shot down. The closest fighters were still 5 minutes off when UAL93 crashed. As is my understanding the fighters were en route from Otis AFB, which is in Massachusetts (more exactly on Cape Cod) not Ohio.

The passengers did not overpower the hijackers, they merely made them run for cover in the cockpit. The passengers used a food cart as a battering ram to gain access to the cockpit, which is where the fight began.

Per the CVR, access was gained to cockpit because muffled American English with American accents suddently became more crisper with a bang (which is probably the door being broken down). Someone in English is recorded saying, "roll it up or push it up" which has been judged by experts as being at least one of the passengers or the UAL pilots resuming partial control. I say partial becuase there probably was still a chaotic fight going on within the confines of the cockpit. Mind you all of this took place in the last minute of the CVR tape which ends when the plane crashes.

A rapid decompression could not have occured as the plane was below 10,000 feet when the passengers began their struggle.

Also, the suicidal pilots did use the plane as a weapon to try to force the passengers into submission. They rocked the plane back and forth and at one point discussed how to cut the O2, but that wouldn't have made a difference since the plane was below 10,000 anyhow.

- Neil Harrison
 
cedarjet
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 3:04 am

So how come a passenger on the phone said there was white smoke in the cabin? I'm not saying I think UA93 was shot down, but this white smoke (or condensation) has never been explained.

Really, it is a sad state of affairs that this flight wasn't shot down (if indeed it wasn't). The WTC2 had collapsed and WTC1 had been on fire for nearly an hour and a half at 10.10am. Hadn't the penny dropped by that point? Where were the fighter jets? Indeed where was airline security when it was needed - the poor people on UA93 were let down by United, by the US defence forces (not that being shot down would have changed their fate, I grant you). The only thing that saved the White House or the Capitol was the bravery of the passengers, every other link in the chain failed utterly to protect the country.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
762er
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 4:15 am

Silverangel: What are you talking about? I just wanted to clear up that I'm not using my ties to 9/11 to "makes (my) opinion more legitamate." It just explains why I got personal with this post, which I regret that I did. I usually don't respond to comments like yours. You have the right to say whatever the hell you want.That's not the issue. But you've said what you feel and I responded with what I feel, so let's just put this one behind us and calm down. Ok?
 
Joni
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 4:31 am


The plane was hijacked obviously with the intention of ramming it into a class-A terrorist target. There was a fighter plane behind it. Then the plane suddenly gets blasted all over the countryside. Of course, it's possible that the civilians onboard could have overpowered the armed terrorists, but my money is on a shoot-down and cover-up. The nation was in need of some good news, and a heroic rescue does the trick nicely. This is all human behaviour from everybody involved.
 
Guest

RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:12 am



Well I wasn't angry in the 1st place 762er, but sure, we can do that. All my frustration came from was that it seemed as though only one point of view was being considered. From what I've read up on it, it really does point to the hijackers crashing it anyways, so I don't see much relevance to Pax issues here. I don't think it was shot down anyways...
 
Pilot1113
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Joni

Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:42 am

There was no fighter jet within striking distence of Flight 93. There was one dispatched to intercept it, but it wasn't close.

- Neil Harrison
 
Pilot1113
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Cedarjet

Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:46 am

>>So how come a passenger on the phone said there was white smoke in the cabin? I'm not saying I think UA93 was shot down, but this white smoke (or condensation) has never been explained.

If this guy was a legitimate airline "nut" (for lack of a better word), then I would believe him. As is he probably was a business person, futhermore he was under duress... extreme duress which makes his statements misleading.

That white smoke could have come from a fire extinguisher, which was used as a weapon to disorientate one of the hijackers.

- Neil Harrison
 
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STT757
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RE: How Did UAL93 Crash?

Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:32 am

There was no wreckage found outside the 30 foot crater, indicating the planned nose dived into the ground.

The Missle theory could be applied more to something like TWA flight 800, where a large part of the foward fuesalage was found miles away from the rest of the aircraft.

Not the case with flight 93, everything was in one spot, a 30 ft crater.

Also eyewitnesses saw the aircraft in an inverted dive right into the groud, no trailing smoke.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Pilot1113
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Frequentflyer

Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:20 pm

>>Is it remotely possible that either someone opened a door or window or shot at the fuselage of the 757 causing a massive decompression that forced the plane down during the struggle?

No... agiain, the plane was at or below 10,000 feet when the passengers began to fight back. Altitude dropped dramatically after that. I believe when the passengers reached the cockpit the plane was barely holding on to 2,000 feet.

At those low altitudes, rapid decompression cannot happen. An explosive decompression that causes an inflight breakup or crash is even more remote.

This is one of the stories that seems to be born in the confusion of the 9/11 chaos. Just because the NY Times reported it, once, doesn't make it God's truth. No other source, not the CVR or FDR or otherwise, seems to support this claim.

- Neil Harrison

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