gr8slvrflt
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First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:11 am

It really does give a totally different, and better, look!
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I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:18 am

Please also see lengthy discussions on this from two days ago:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/894235/
 
transswede
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:26 am

What were those windows for in the first place? They always struck me as useless.

And when will Boeing remove them from the 737's?
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:26 am

Please also see lengthy discussions on this from two days ago:

So very sorry. I did a search for Boeing 717 and the above referenced link did not come up because Boeing was not in the title, I guess. I apologize for wasting anyone's time.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:35 am

Didn't waste anybody's time... just pointing out another reference that may answer anybody's additional questions.

I searched for "717 eyebrow" and came up with that thread. Airliners.net's search interface is problematic at best most of the time.
 
srbmod
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:58 am

With the eyebrow windows removed, you also decrease MX costs as well. You don't have to worry about having to keep the parts for those windows, and less parts means less overhead. Those windows also do affect aerodynamics to an extent as well. They are a flat piece in an area that is curved, and those cause some drag because the airflow is disrupted because of the break in the curve.
 
Delta777-XXX
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:20 am

Are you sure those windows are flat? I would think that they are curved just like the other cockpit windows.

Hank
 
Greg
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:26 am

When does the first 73NG without eyebrow windows roll out?
 
l'espace180
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:40 am

TransSwede : those windows were meant, in the earlier aviation times, to navigate using the stars, which is now useless with the new technologies (GPS and such).
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:45 am

those windows were meant, in the earlier aviation times, to navigate using the stars

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I don't think so.
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
brons2
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:50 am

Yes, Clipperhawaii, that's what they were used for.

Do you have some alternate theory to advance here?
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clipperhawaii
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:56 am

Yeah, they were placed there for air traffic avoidance. So I was told by a Douglas test pilot. Why would a DC-9 need to navigate by stars on such short segments?

CH
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
Gregg
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:18 am

I thought they were used to see the "stop bar" that used to be on gates.
 
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PW100
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:33 am

Yes, Clipperhawaii, that's what they were used for.
Do you have some alternate theory to advance here?


YES. They were meant to stay visual with the runway when turning final. When at an angle to the runway, when banking, the runway would disappear out the side window due to the banking of the aircraft. These eyebrow windows made sure that the pilot [at least one of them...] would would stay visual in the banking turn.

PW100
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DIA
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:38 am

If that is true PW100, why are they geting rid of them?

I don't know the answer myself. . .but. . .

those windows were meant, in the earlier aviation times, to navigate using the stars

In a modern jet?!

 Laugh out loud I haven't laughed that hard in awhile!  Laugh out loud

No disrespect to anyone. . .DIA

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sunilgupta
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:47 am

Another reason the aircraft without the brow windows looks odd is that the the window frames are painted the same color as the fuselage. On most DC-9, MD-8x and 717's they are left natural metal. Anyone know why the frame is painted?

Sunil

 
DIA
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:48 am

I guess this CV880 didn't need to see the stars!

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or this SUD Caravelle!

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Poor guys, should have gotten the sunroof option.  Wink/being sarcastic

LOL. . .DIA
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DIA
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 7:18 am

What. . .nobody knows for sure?

Any tech's out there?
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l'espace180
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:20 am

The stars were used in extreme cases of course...and if it's still on a modern jet, it's because that "modern" jet comes from an "old" jet.
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:28 am

I believe PW1000 is right. I asked a DL Captain of a 737-300 why they needed the upper windows and he said it was to still be able to see the runway when turning on final and also for spotting other aircraft etc. Maybe in the 737 the main windows are positioned in a matter that would block their view normally.

I think anything that would help a pilot when flying couldn't be too bad of an idea...  Smile What if the navigation system goes out and they neet to get out thier sextant???  Smile
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
DIA
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:37 am

L'Espace180:

Reference my post above with the "old jets." If the stars were used in extreme cases, then these "old jets" and the new 717 with no eyebrow windows are out of luck.

FO: "Guess we're lost Cap'n, and we don't have any eyebrow windows, so we gotta ditch!"

Captain: "Dammit! I knew this airline should have gotten some DC-9s so we could have seen the stars!"

FO: "Damn this Caravelle!"


DIA  Big grin
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Jj
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:37 am

I thought they were for the navigators/flight engineers to see outside the aircraft when their vission was obstructed by the pilots...
 
justplanesmart
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:38 am

Remember that the cockpit window arrangement on the 717 came from the DC-8 originally, and that of the 737 was straight from the 707. When both of those first-generation jets were introduced, navigators were still a regular part of the cockpit crew, especially for overseas flights. I doubt that the either the DC-9 or the 737 have ever carried a navigator, but the windows stayed until now.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
tt737fo
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:43 am

Regardless of the origin, the eyebrows increase the visibility.

An ALPA review of the 717 that I read a few years back was extremely positive. Their chief complaint was sticking with the vintage DC-9 windows--which are pretty narrow.

Thus, I am surprised that the eyebrows have been eliminated alltogether.
 
DIA
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:44 am

"Aaaaahhhhh!!! We can't navigate by the stars either!"


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DIA
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:46 am

snoozing. . .We are still looking for the original proven reason for these extra windows.
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timz
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 9:12 am

Hey guys, I can't figure it out-- were you serious about the astronavigation?
 
BWIrwy4
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:08 pm

Yes, they were serious. On transoceanic flights, the only way to know your position until about 1970 was to have a sextant and use celestial navigation. Then, inertial navigation (I think) came along and made celestial navigation (and the navigator) obsolete. That's why planes originally designed after that point don't have eyebrow windows. (747, 757, 767, 777, DC-10, L-1011, Airbus, etc.)
 
AA717driver
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:29 pm

It's because without the eyebrow windows the cockpit would take longer to reach the 100+ degree temperatures. And, that's two less windows to generate that high-pitched screech when they develop the inevitible air leak.

Seriously, it's for the view on approach. When the -9 was developed, pilots still got to do their own base to final turns instead of the 30 mile finals like you see at IND. Ooops, did I say that? Big grin TC
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L-188
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:14 pm

The window are so that you can see into a turn. Such as turning final.

Those windows would be useless for taking a star shot.

You need a dome to to that correctly, The nose of the aircraft isn't always going to be pointed the way you need it to. With an Astrodome the navigator has a full 360 to view the night sky.
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solnabo
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:29 pm

Personally I find 717 a ugly looking a/c......
was popular 35 years ago.
Booooring design, Boeing!!!!!
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lapper
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 9:08 pm

Solnabo: Actually you need to blame the designers at McDonald Douglas for the design of the B717, as it was originally to be one of their planes, but was adopted by Boeing when they bought MDD out.
 
cxcx330
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:42 pm

Looks like Fokker 100  Smile
 
Skystar
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:52 pm

I was told that those windows were added so that Douglas and Boeing could actually meet window size/area requirements - which no longer are required.

Quite plausible to me.

Cheers,

Justin
 
DIA
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Thu Aug 08, 2002 11:19 pm

AA717driver:

Thanks for your straight answer.

You are a pilot, in the series with and now w/o windows no less, I'll trust you to know the correct answer.

Regards, DIA
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Lortab 7.5mg
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:01 am

An ALPA review of the 717 that I read a few years back was extremely positive. Their chief complaint was sticking with the vintage DC-9 windows--which are pretty narrow.


Flying the B-717-200
Air Line Pilot, March 2000

"Given the small windows and resultant poor visibility, this pitch attitude was rather uncomfortable. For as long as I have been involved with ALPA's evaluation of aircraft (15 years), I can remember complaints about the small size of the DC-9's windows. The windscreen size is probably one of the biggest legacies of the 1960s design."


more...
http://www.alpa.org/internet/alp/2000/marb717.htm
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Fri Aug 09, 2002 11:21 am

I wonder what AirTran had to say about the situation?

I wish they never would have gotten rid of those windows. Now it is going to make AirTran's fleet look odd.  Sad Oh well
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timz
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Pre-1970 Oceanic Navigation

Fri Aug 09, 2002 11:46 am

I've long wondered just how much astronavigation was used on airliners in, say, 1955, or in 1965. I assume very few 707/DC-8s ever used it regularly-- was Doppler radar the usual by then? But I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that it wasn't used that much even in the 1950s. Were the Constellations and DC-7Cs getting some kind of fixes from those weather ships parked out there at fixed midocean positions? Were they using Loran or Consol or something? When did Omega start, early 1960s?

I once read that even in 1939 Pan Am didn't want to rely on astro with their B314 flights (which, after all, wasn't pressurized, so couldn't be sure of getting above cloud)-- they wanted some sort of radio alternative, but dunno what it was.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:20 pm

I know that on the old 707s QF used, the navigator used a sextant to navigate using the stars at night (obveously before satnav). Both my father (who was an ex QF FA) and John Travolta confirmed this. Perhaps this does shed some credibility on they claim that the same was for the 717 or DC-9 as it once was.


QANTASforever
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sllevin
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:25 pm

Celestial Navigation was done from a small dome in the top of the fuselage (optional). While it was common to see the dome on propliners, by the time the jets were coming out, it was already going away, and while I believe a few 707's and DC-8's were ordered (the early "overwater" models) with it, most were not.

The eyebrow windows were always for visibility in turns.

Steve
 
Skystar
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:57 pm

Visibility seems plausible, but why would they need to remove the feature now (apart from cost cutting) - surely there's no less a need for visibility now? They haven't increased the main glass area, so by removing the eyebrows - the visibility has been reduced.

I think the mandated window area theory does compliment the visibility argument. I remember hearing from somewhere that it was an FAA requirement at the time. Ahwell.

Cheers,

Justin
 
timz
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Apparently It Will Ever Remain Unknown...

Sat Aug 10, 2002 8:33 am

...just how airliners got around before INS. Back in the 50s an article about Qantas' Constellation to South Africa said they had to fly the Cocos-Mauritius segment at night so they could use the stars-- but then how did Pan Am and United manage to fly California-Hawaii in the daytime? Sounds pretty guess-and-by-gosh to use only the sun.

There was that weather ship halfway along the Hawaii run; did that make the difference? There were seven such ships parked in the North Atlantic north of 40 deg N.

049 Constellations and maybe some DC-4s had astrodomes, but later propliners could still use the stars, with a periscopic sextant that just poked out the roof a few inches. Certainly astro didn't disappear when astrodomes did.

But: give up this notion that some DC-9s had navigators peeking over the pilot's shoulder with a sextant. If Douglas had ever imagined a DC-9 crew had the least use for the stars they would have provided something better than that.

 
Iflewrepublic
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:00 pm

It's odd to say this, but....

that old Douglas nose looks...very...um...very....BOEING.

Iflewrepublic
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F111
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Sat Aug 10, 2002 6:54 pm

The Shorts 360 has eyebrow windows and they are there for visibility.
 
FBU 4EVER!
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RE: First Boeing 717 Without Eyebrow Windows

Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:02 pm

The eyebrow windows have always been there for one purpose:Visibility.Both for circling approaches and visuals.
As most airports nowadays are equipped with ILS and approach radars the need for these windows has decreased.TCAS systems also give a good indication of nearby traffic.
Celestial navigation on jetliners continued up to the late -60's.This was performed with a built-in sextant that lowered from the cockpit ceiling,the star "shots" being taken through a small prism that extended less than an inch from the fuselage skin.Eyebrows for starnav.?Never.
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