BA
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BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:51 am

It is officially in the schedules now.

The British Airways DEN, PHX, and SAN flights move to London Heathrow on October 26.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
searpqx
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:54 am

And still no offical word how they are getting around B2? Curiouser and Curiouser......
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 3:05 am

Expect an announcement on 8/15.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:11 am

I still don't understand how BA got round the Bermuda 2 restrictions?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Trvlr
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:25 am

Posted by Arsenal@LHR:
I still don't understand how BA got round the Bermuda 2 restrictions?

That could be what the announcement on 8/15 is about. My guess is that it's going to involve a lot more entities than BA...at least if Pat is in on it Big grin.

Still, I don't think that the schedule change carries much assurance of the approval of these services. If worse comes to worse and nothing happens (ie BA is forced to keep the flights at Gatwick), then I won't be surprised that BA made the schedule changes at this point in time.

One can only hope for the best!

Aaron G.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:27 am

If these changes are genuine, then something could be in store for the US airlines.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
blink182
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:30 am

This could be big, I am sure that BA will not be operating these routes without the US airlines getting something in return. BA's LHR-DEN service will probably mean that United starts an LHR-DEN service.
Just out of curiosity, why those three cities? I would have thought IAH would get LHR service before any of those three.

blink
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:37 am

That's what i'm asking aswell Blink182, there could be a mini Bermuda 2 deal agreed on a limited service basis. who knows? let's wait and see.

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OA412
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:37 am

Just out of curiosity, why those three cities? I would have thought IAH would get LHR service before any of those three.

This was speculated on another thread. Obviously, logic dictates that IAH especially as well as DFW and ATL should get LHR flights prior to PHX, DEN, and SAN. However, one should remember that the three former cities are also have service from a US carrier whereas the three latter cities do not. Certainly, BA realizes that announcing LHR service from IAH, DFW and ATL would cause CO, AA, and DL respectively to scream bloody murder and would make it much more difficult for BA to circumvent B2. By moving flights from cities without competition, BA faces less resistance from US carriers.

Anyway, I would wait for the 8/15 announcement that DeltaSFO mentioned to see exactly what US carriers will get in exchange for the route swap by BA. Certainly, the US will not allow BA to just move these three flights to LHR without reciprocal rights for US carriers.
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KWSea
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 11:26 am

Virgin has been very quite about all this. Me thinks they must have gotten a little something which is keeping them happy.
 
Trvlr
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 11:36 am

Maybe Virgin is getting MCO, LAS, and rights to LHR from another American city?

Aaron G.
 
usairways85
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 11:52 am

i know virgin wanted to start service to phl after the new international terminal opens in december and an aggrement was reached dealing with B2, but i dont know how likely it is for virgin to start service to phl.
 
johnboy
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Thu Aug 08, 2002 4:58 pm

Still not able to use BA's website to book flights onward from LHR when traveling from PHX. Although, to be fair, when calling reservations, the agent will quote a route and fare.

Guess they're not THAT certain yet.
 
ryu2
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:58 am

Expect an announcement on 8/15.

So, where's the announcement?
 
David_itl
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:25 am


One of BBC online's stories begins:

"Negotiators from the US and the UK are meeting in Washington to try to find a way of relaxing the rules on air travel between the two countries.
The so-called 'open skies' talks include the possibility of allowing more airlines to fly to the US from London's Heathrow airport."


David
 
aamd11
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:37 am

Finally some sense from the talks "limited measures"
I suggested the same thing should happen, give bmi the rights, and ONE more US carrier, so that B2 consists of SIX carriers not the current four, its an interim step towards full open skies, which i dont think should happen until the airport [LHR] is ready for it [ie when T5 is opened and space in the other terminals is freed up a bit].

To me, this is the logical step, but who knows, if you ask me, competition is all good and well, but why open LHR to one more british carrier and 4 or 5 US carriers?? thats a bit one sided dont you think?
what will we [britain] get in return for letting so many new US carriers into our primary hub?

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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:39 am

Well if UA continue to have problems....
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:42 am

what will we [britain] get in return for letting so many new US carriers into our primary hub?

Umm...whose fault is it that there are only three intercontinental carriers in the UK, as opposed to six in the United States? In Open Skies, there are no restrictions. Britain "gets" nothing. In the US-Italy market there are all six US internatonal carriers and only one Italian carrier, Alitalia.
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donder10
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:44 am

The UK wants the ability for UK airlines to fly domestic US routes and the US to drop the 'fly American' policy.
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:04 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/020815/transport_openskies_2.html

British officials proposed at a State Department meeting that each country be allowed an equal number of additional carriers over the next two years to service Heathrow, U.S. officials said.

The new British government plan would permit each country to add two new airlines in 2003 and another two each in 2004, U.S. officials said. The revised access could include cargo flights as well as passenger service.

One source said one airline promoted for new service by Britain was BMI British Midland, the U.K.'s second-largest carrier behind British Airways.

The actual number of any new transatlantic flights for Heathrow would have to be negotiated.

There is no timetable for the Bush administration to respond, nor were new talks scheduled.

The U.S. government would have to decide "winners and losers" as well as how many flights airlines would get under any limited agreement, a scenario Washington has not wanted to negotiate in the past.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:19 am

A deal needs to be struck before the EU comes in and hi-jacks any open skies agreements.

So are they still talking or has anything been decided?

In Arsene we trust!!
 
747firstclass
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:28 am

If both countires can add 2 new carriers for LHR-USA service, per year, please explain how and why BA plans to fly to PHX,DEN and SAN from LHR, when those cities are clearly not allowed under Bernuda II and BA is certainly not a new carrier at LHR. Confused and bewildered.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:44 am

Both countries to add 2 new carriers? The US can provide CO,DL,NW and US. The UK has BMI, so where's the second UK carrier?

Confused aswell.

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MAS777
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:51 am

As LGW is my home airport and many friends are BA employees (and EX-employees post lay-offs at LGW).... Bah humbug is all I can say.

Stopped flying BA for over a year now...and more people should too!
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 11:17 am

Maybe they are concidering changing the whole scope of where to fly. With the SAN situation, maybe they will extend the LAX coverage to include SAN. Also myabe they will move the ANC coverage to PHX or DEN. Just a thought.
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 11:34 am

These flt will all have a stop in a city that is allowed service into LHR if a new agreement is not reached. Just like the IAH-LHR flt. I doubt they will come to an agreement easily as everyone wants into LHR.
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:09 pm

If both countires can add 2 new carriers for LHR-USA service, per year, please explain how and why BA plans to fly to PHX,DEN and SAN from LHR, when those cities are clearly not allowed under Bernuda II and BA is certainly not a new carrier at LHR. Confused and bewildered.

Though not specifically mentioned in the article, I believe that it is the intention of the British government (and the American for that matter) to lift the gateway restrictions. In this way, BA can operate from LHR to PHX, SAN, and DEN to LHR and, for example, DL would be able to operate ATL and CVG-LHR, CO would be able to fly IAH and CLE to LHR, etc. However, keep in mind that if there is no decision from either side, you won't be seeing BA operate SAN, DEN, and PHX to LHR.
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:13 pm

My guess is that either CO/NW will get the flight, and most likely DL unless US can try to rally a sympathy vote. Note: Co and NW won't be the 2 airlines that get to fly to Europe b/c of the complex code-sharing agreements.
 
cba
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:56 pm

Uh, they're probably stopping in a B2 city. BA operates IAH-LHR, and gets around B2 by stopping in IAD. I'm guessing something similar for DEN, PHX, and SAN.
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:57 pm

Cba: the flight times that BA has make the flights non-stop, not one-stop.
 
johnboy
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Fri Aug 16, 2002 4:48 pm

Fairly ballsy to load such flights in the computer though.

Luckily my flight to AMS has connections either via LHR or LGW, but some poor souls might be locked into taking a bus ride to LHR if those flights aren't approved.

IMHO, that wouldn't be very good PR.
 
BA
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:39 am

They are not stopping anywhere. The DEN, PHX, and SAN flights will be non-stop. I don't know how many times it's been mentioned.

Heck, check the database (http://www.oag.com) or the British Airways schedules.

EVERYTHING is in their. The aircraft type, the flight time, departure and arrival times, and the amount of stops (in this case 0). It is all in their.

It's going to happen. Expect to hear US carriers announcing LHR service in the coming months aswell.

This is possibly full open-skies between the US and UK. Or it might possibly be a limited open skies which is more likely.

Anyways, limited or complete. It's better than nothing, and it's going to allow British Airways to transfer the DEN, PHX, and SAN flights to LHR.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:42 am

Here's the latest, CO and DL would get two flights each.

http://www.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=marketsquote99_news.ht&s=APVwwRBUvVS5LLiBP


With the state of the US Airline industry in disarray I would think that officials might soften their stance on AA/BA, but instead of letting British carriers operate in the US domestic market I could maybe see them allowing a "virtual" merger of airlines like AA/BA, UAL/BMI, CO/VS.

Airlines would keep their separate identies but wuld combine resources and manpower.

Or maybe not.

But besides Richard Branson who I think would do well with Virgin America since he an his Virgin companies have such strong name recognition in the US what British companies would want to operate a US carrier. I could see British Airways interested in flying JFK-LAX, SFO but would they base 737s and 757s here to fly NY-FLorida?. They do have a decent size terminal of thier own at JFK which they're doing a great job of renovating, perhaps they woul make JFK hub and transfer passengers from the UK there to flights to places like Indianapolis, Cleveland or Pittsburgh?
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BA
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:44 am

Thank you for posting that STT757.

It's amazing how some users on this forum act as if they work for the airlines, or the government and know better than the airlines themselves...........especially when something has already been announced and is IN the schedules......

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:53 am

Either a limited deal has been struck or a full one. The article mentions 2 US carriers in 2003, could that be CO and DL, and another 2 carriers in 2004, that will probably be US and NW. But how would they decide who get's access first? the largest airline from the quartet or just the biggest?


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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:12 am

It's amazing how some users on this forum act as if they work for the airlines, or the government and know better than the airlines themselves...........especially when something has already been announced and is IN the schedules......

Being announced and being in the schedules vs. actually operating a route are two very different things. Just because BA has put these flights into the schedules does not mean that they are under any obligation to fly them. All carriers announce flights they never operate all the time. For example, over the last few years DL has announced JFK-SJC, JFK-SMF, and ATL-DEL. None of this service materialized for whatever reason. So, I repeat, this is far from a done deal. Unless the US agrees to the British deal, the DEN, PHX, and SAN flights will remain at LGW. Simple as that!

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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:18 am

Here's the latest, CO and DL would get two flights each.

I saw no mention in the article of CO and DL getting two flights each nor any mention that these would be the first two carriers in. If you remember, about 6 months ago, the USDOT said that it would approve the alliance if DL was given 6 flights, CO and NW 4, and US 3. I expect the US Government to make a similar demand this time around. Unless these airlines are given meaningful LHR access, I don't expect the US to go along with this.

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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:19 am

OA412,

Another example of a route announced with schedules and equipment and ticket sales on their website was AS's planned SEA-LGB. When it became apparent that slots would not be available, the service was switched to Horizon RJs with a change in scheduled times (and of course a equipment change). Nothing is definite until the first plane lifts off.



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BA
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:39 am

OA412,

Last minute changes are possible. However it is unlikely for such a move as this.

Yesterday, the US and UK began talks about a limited open skies.

BA would not announce this change if they were not certain it would happen.

This is not Delta. This is not Alaska Airlines. This is British Airways.

Also, the fact that other LGW-US flights were not moved is saying that they were somehow "guaranteed" on the DEN, PHX, and SAN move.

Also on a side note, United and American will also benefit from this deal despite already being allowed in LHR.

We'll see what they will be given.

Their should be an announcement in a couple weeks or so. The talks I believe just ended last night.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:56 am

Rumor has it that the UK govt. is about to approve tha UA-BMI alliance agreement.

All the major US carriers will somehow "benefit" from the deal also. First will be Continental and Delta. Then in the coming years Northwest........

This is getting interesting......
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 8:05 am

No way would DL and CO agree to only 2 daily round trips from LHR, that is simply not enough for the routes to be profitable enough. DL would want at least 3 daily ATL round trips, 2 daily JFK flights and a daily to CVG. CO would want at least 3 daily to EWR, 2 daily to IAH and a daily to CLE. NW would be happy with 2 daily trips to DTW and MSP respectively.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 8:09 am

And let's not forget the best example: Alaska Airline's YVR-SNA, which actually did start, but only to find out on the first and only day of operations that Orange County cannot have international flights.
a.
 
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OA412
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:10 am

And let's not forget the best example: Alaska Airline's YVR-SNA, which actually did start, but only to find out on the first and only day of operations that Orange County cannot have international flights.

I had forgotten about that one. What fools! You'd think someone at AS would have checked this out before the airline actually started service. Anyway, there's also the example of AA which announced BOS-NRT service, put it in the schedules, sold flights then yanked the route. Happens all the time.

BA would not announce this change if they were not certain it would happen.

This is not Delta. This is not Alaska Airlines. This is British Airways.


I don't follow your logic here. Why is BA somehow immune to and above the actions and mistakes of other carriers? BA would certainly not have announced the change if it were not fairly certain that the new deal is going to be approved. However, there is still a chance that it will not be (especially if the deal is not seen as being beneficial to the US side) and BA will have to keep those flights at LGW. Regardless of whether or not it announced the move and loaded the flights into the schedules.

Also on a side note, United and American will also benefit from this deal despite already being allowed in LHR.

We'll see what they will be given.


Certainly they will though they will probably benefit less than the non-incumbants. I would expect that AAs deal with BA will finally approved and that UAs alliance with BMI will face a similar fate. It's also highly likely that AA will, assuming there are available slots of course, be able to move its DFW and RDU flights to LHR from LGW. Being UAs only hub without London service (and it's only non-B2 hub for that matter), I'd expect UA to be given the rights to DEN-LHR and to operate said flight once its financial situaiton gets just a little better (read: when the very survival of the carrier is no longer at stake.)





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OA412
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:16 am

No way would DL and CO agree to only 2 daily round trips from LHR, that is simply not enough for the routes to be profitable enough. DL would want at least 3 daily ATL round trips, 2 daily JFK flights and a daily to CVG.

Exactly!!! As I stated earlier, I would expect the airlines and the USDOT to demand the exact same number of flights as was demanded earlier in the year in exchange for approval of the AA/BA alliance. In that round, DL was "given" 6 daily flights, 3 from JFK, 1 from BOS, and 2 to be used from whichever gateway it chose (undoudtedly ATL). Neither DL nor CO will agree to just 2 daily flights each into/out of LHR. How the hell will they compete with just 2 flights?
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BA
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:16 am

OA412,

I'm not saying BA is immune to mistakes.

However, from the sounds of your previous posts, you sound almost certain that they are mistaken, and will end up continue flying from LGW. You can't be certain unless you work for BA.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MAH4546
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:21 am

Anyway, there's also the example of AA which announced BOS-NRT service, put it in the schedules, sold flights then yanked the route. Happens all the time.

That was one of many. In the announcement that BOS-NRT was canceled, AA canceled MIA-ASU, ORD-SVO, ORD-AMS, and JFK-NRT, all which were put in the scheds and on sale. JFK-NRT did eventually start, and rumours are that AA's new HD 763 configs may make MIA-ASU (which currently operates via GRU) possible.
a.
 
BA
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:28 am

Here are my 2 cents.

Perhaps the DEN, PHX, SAN flight change to LHR may have nothing to do with an upcoming Open Skies agreement. Perhaps, British Airways made a request with the US and UK government to give them an exemption for these 3 cities.

Perhaps the US DOT and UK saw that these 3 cities have limited European flights, and to better promote them, they decided to allow these 3 cities to move to LHR because of the better connection opportunities than LGW.

Notice how BA has made no announcement about the DFW and ATL flights moving to LHR. Possibly because these cities already have substantial European connections, so they were not given exemptions for these cities.

SAN's only Europe connection is the British Airways flight. LGW is very limited when it comes to connections, and it is getting more and more limited each year as British Airways transfers routes and flights to LHR.

DEN and PHX are also similar, each with only British Airways and Lufthansa providing Europe flights.

In Dallas, you have American with many destinations in Europe, plus the couple European carriers. In Atlanta, you have Delta with many destinations in Europe, plus the several European carriers.

This is a strong possibility and it makes sense.

Anyways, let's start talking about the benefits if these changes really happen.

This is a good article in the Rocky Mountain News:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_1299165,00.html

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:31 am

Also on an interesting side note, for the past 2 years Denver officials have been trying to persuade British Airways to move the Denver flight to Heathrow because of the better connection possibilities. They were even going to the DOT and UK govt. officials trying to find a way to exempt Denver from the Bermuda II agreement, or add them to the Bermuda II agreement.

Have any other cities tried to do this?

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 11:30 am

There's no way that the US would let BA alter the Bermua II treaty, letting BA make some changes would errode the US's bagaining position.

Why should BA be allowed to move flights from DEN, PHX, and SAN to ORD when there is little economic benefit for those cities compared to the economic benefit of allowing AA fly to Heathrow from their biggest hub (DFW) or allowing CO and DL into Heathrow.
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RE: BA DEN, PHX, And SAN Service Move To LHR 10/26

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:38 pm

I'm not saying BA is immune to mistakes.

However, from the sounds of your previous posts, you sound almost certain that they are mistaken, and will end up continue flying from LGW. You can't be certain unless you work for BA.


I see! Certainly this is not some grossly stupid mistake. Obviously, they expect something to come of this round (as do I) otherwise they wouldn't be so confident. This is one of the few times that the UK has actually initiated the process by giving US carriers and more British carriers access to the LHR-USA market. In that sense, BA believes (as does the UK governemnt, IMHO) that the US will agree to this and BA will be allowed to fly these routes. I too believe that the US will agree if its terms are met. Let's face it, CO, NW, DL want LHR access yesterday.
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