mhsieh
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Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:59 pm

Read about Boeing taking back SIA's A340 as "trade-in" for purchasing 777...Of course this upset Airbus so they threatened not to provide any maintenance support to any airline that buys these A340s.
1. What did Boeing do with these A340??
2. Is it good PR or legal for a manufacturer to refuse to provide support for a plane it built?
Thanks
 
A340-Fan
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:06 pm

to 1.) Boeing sold some to Khalifa and Air Switzerland. I also read that LH is interested in them.

to 2.) I think that Airbus don' t do that, because they annoy the airlines.

A340-Fan
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:30 pm

1) As above they have been sold to Khalifa Airways, Air Switzerland and another airline.

2) Airbus did do that - it was a bad PR move. They are now supporting the aircraft.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
babaero
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:17 pm

B-HXM,HXN and HXO of Cathay Pacific were bought from Boeing. these were ex SQ aircraft also.
 
bobcat
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:23 pm

Boeing made the same offer to China Airlines.

To sell the 777s, Boeing will let CI "trade-in"
their existing A340 fleet, as long as CI does not
buy the A330s.

 
9V-SVA
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 7:21 pm

Boeing takes A340 in and sells them to third-party airlines while it gets a Boeing 777 sale. Simple.

9V-SVA
9V-SVA | B772ER
 
User avatar
PW100
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 7:58 pm

It's just like a car sale deal. Trade in your VolksWagon [340] and buy a brand new Ford [777] with all sort of complimentary extra's:
including delayed payment [TAKE IT NOW AND PAY IN TWO YEARS!!];
including free leather seats;
including free on-board entertainment system;
including customized external trimming and colour of yoir choice;
including training and familiarization [sp?!?],
including 50.000 miles of free maintenance [which isn't that hard to guarantee on a 777...];
including........

PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
Klaus
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Singapore_Air

Sun Aug 11, 2002 8:04 pm

Singapore_Air: 2) Airbus did do that - it was a bad PR move. They are now supporting the aircraft.

As far as I know, they originally announced that they might not support these aircraft when re-sold by Boeing.

I think it´s not difficult to understand that Airbus reacted with a certain amount of saber-rattling to Boeing´s aggressive sales tactics. And I doubt that the airlines have too many illusions about how serious both competitors are taking business...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
celestar
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:16 pm

I don't know if Boeing is deperate or what, they made the same offer to China Airlines and local paper said that Boeing is going to requote to China Airlines next week to try to get this business from CI.

CI made a consciencious move (I think a wise one) years before to replace MD11 with A340. They now want to move ahead with fleet modenization to replace their aging A300-600R and the natural and correct business decision will be A330. Boeing came to this round and get into contact with Taiwan government to sway CI decision. Part of the deal was to take back the A340 which CI pilots had becoming accustom to.

It is a pity that when CI crashes a plane, people in Taiwan point out CI is under too much politics from government so they were never accountable. Now CI wants to make decision, the government intervened. I pity CI situation.

Whether B777-ER or A330 or A340 is a good decision or not, let CI decide.
Frankly speaking, if you look at the route that CI will be flying, ETOP will be a concern and having sit on both Boeing and Airbus planes, I think A340 is the right decision.
 
JAL
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Mon Aug 12, 2002 2:51 am

Boeing needs to be more aggressive in winning orders if taking in an Airbus aircraft will seal the deal then Boeing should do it.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
Joni
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:13 am


JAL,

What should be the target of this "aggression"? I don't think CI will be more likely to buy from Boeing if Boeing employees would, say, blow up airplanes or CI's offices.

 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Mon Aug 12, 2002 12:01 pm

Mhsieh,

As already mentioned, Boeing has sold 3 to Cathay Pacific, 3 to Khalifa, and an undetermined amount to Air Switzerland. In addition, they offered them to Lufthansa during the recent bids for a medium-haul fleet. However, Lufthansa not only chose the A330-300, they even converted their remaining orders/options they had on the A340-300 (4 + 6) with Airbus to do so. I think its safe to say LH will not be getting any A340-300's in the foreseeable future.

Immediately after the deal was announced, Airbus decried the tactic and threatened to withhold support for the aircraft. Of course, this did not go over very well, especially when the first airline to buy some of the ex-SQ birds was Cathay, a pre-existing A330/340 operator.

Interestingly, according to everything I've read, Airbus has offered to buy-back easyJet's 737 fleet (including their new -700's) if they decide for the A319. The shoe is now on the other foot. . .


Celestar,

I've been in contact with a few sources close to CI, and it has also been reported on the Orders forum, so believe me when I say that you actually have it backwards - CI asked Boeing to buy-back the A340's, not vice versa. Also, according to one of my sources, any A330 deal would also include an A340 buy-back. In other words, the A343 is done at CI. That is actually why Boeing's original bid was so much higher than Airbus's. While the price of the 777/A330s were relatively on par, Boeing was only offering @ $35 million for the used A340s, while Airbus was offering close to $85 million. Apparently, Boeing has now come back and offered a lot more than their initial $35 million offering in order to capture the deal. However, CI has now postponed a decision, and will combine their A300 replacement with their scheduled long-haul renewal next year.

Could this give the A343 another chance? I would doubt it. The way I see it CI will either go: 1) Boeing with the 772, 772ER, 773, and either 773ERs or 744ERs 2) Airbus with the A332, A333, and A346. I don't see CI operating the A380 for a number of years, but I could be mistaken.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
brons2
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Mon Aug 12, 2002 12:21 pm

All this brings up an interesting question....

Does Boeing actually make money reselling planes from other manufacturers?

I mean, a Ford dealer will still try to make a profit if he's selling a Chevrolet off his lot. Or a Honda or a Volkswagen for that matter.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Mon Aug 12, 2002 1:11 pm

Brons2,

I'm sure Boeing intended to make some type of profit through the deal. Either directly from the resale of the A340's, or through the profit-margin on the sale of 777's to SQ. However, with the depressed market, especially for A340's, there can be be no question that Boeing is losing money on the resales.

Also remember that the agreement to buy-back SQ's A340's was a provision of the original 1995 SQ order for 777's. So this is not as new or surprising as it was made out when that provision was exercised in 1999. I think if Boeing knew the market for A340's would be so bad today, they might have thought twice about agreeing to the deal. Then again, in the end, the chance to 54 and counting 777's to SQ would have been too good to pass up.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
celestar
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Mon Aug 12, 2002 11:50 pm

Dear Hamlet69,

I was surprised to hear that you stated my original thinking was wrong. Local newspaper was never professional enough so I have to rely on advise and opinion. What makes me difficult to understand is why is A340-300 going to be phase-out with CI? I just don't get it. With B777ER or A332, CI will be left with 2 engines planes flying over some of the Pacific route where ETOP will always be an issue. Also, I recalled correctly that when CI decided on A343, it was cleary stated that with 4 engines, CI can fly these plane in shorter and more direct distance, eg Taipei to JFK.

Can you help me to understand more?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:29 am

Celestar,

ETOPS is not nearly as big an issue as most people tend to believe. Given Taipei's location, CI would only need the standard 180-min. ETOPS to fly their Trans-Pacific routes. Now, obviously CI has not had the best safety record during the past decade (that's an understatement, isn't it?  Wink/being sarcastic ). However, they are an experienced twin-engine operator, having flown the A300 since the early '80's. This is actually more important than their safety record. Obviously, they will have to demostrate that their maintanence procedures and facilities meet the stringent ETOPS standards. Usually, to gain an ETOPS rating, an airline has to have experience operating and maintaining twin-engine aircraft for a least 1 to 2 years. CI already has this qualification.

What is more important than ETOPS is aircraft performance. Airbus promised that the A340-300 could fly non-stop TPE-JFK, both directions, even during the dead of winter. However, this turned out to be false. Now, during the winter, the A343 either has to fly payload restricted, or make a service stop in ANC when flying west-bound. In addition, the 772ER can carry a larger payload than the A343, which equals greater revenue. As far as the issue that the A340 could fly a shorter route, this is true - as long as the carrier does not have an 180 ETOPS rating. If CI qualifies for 180 ETOPS, then the 777 can fly the exact same route the A340 can.

BTW - I seriously doubt CI will ever send a possible A332 fleet Trans-Pacific. Should CI chose the aircraft, I garauntee they would be for Australiasia and Europe flights.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Lortab 7.5mg
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:52 am

Off topic, but somewhat related:

Boeing unit reaches for profits of finance world

'Big-ticket transactions' are stock in trade of Boeing Capital Corp.

Monday, August 12, 2002
By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER AEROSPACE REPORTER

...While Boeing is transforming itself into a global aerospace powerhouse far from its commercial airplane roots, the company's independent financial arm continues to broaden its role as a lender -- from commercial jetliners, including Airbus planes, to non-airplane big-ticket items such as oil rigs and ocean-going vessels.


more...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/82215_palmer12.shtml
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:56 am

Here is what is going to happen...

They are going to take the A340, Modify it a little. Put different engines on there and make it a twinjet and then pass it off as the Boeing 787  Yeah sure

(This is what happened to the MD-95, Boeing took over douglas, and slapped their name on the MD-95 when it was born as the MD-95. It should not have been changed)  Smile
Puhdiddle
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Boeing Takes Back A340...then What?

Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:57 am

BTW -- if anyone reads my post up above, but does not realize that it was a joke. Now you know. That goes double for seiple.
Puhdiddle