AMRAAM
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United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:35 am

Just heard on Fox News that United Airlines could be the next to file for bankruptcy. They need 1.8 billion in government loans to keep their fleet in the air.

Tough times for the airlines indeed!

Survival of the fittest. =)
 
Sabena332
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:43 am

Bad news, very bad news. What will the Star Alliance do without UA? I hope also that US will survive! September 11 has changed the world and especially the whole airline industry.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
AMRAAM
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:49 am

I agree. It would be really sad to see US and UA go bust. It was sad to see Pan Am and Eastern go down the drain in the 80's. What a year for the industry!
 
brons2
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:11 am

I don't think the world's 2nd largest airline will be allowed to go down the drain. I think, now that USAirways has taken the plunge, bankruptcy might not be viewed as such a bad option after all.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
174thfwff
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:14 am

Maybe if the airlines started to give a crap about their passengers then maybe they would have more business. Most of the employees I have been in contact with are rude, don't care about lost luggage, and cram you into a small seat only to give you dog food for dinner if you are lucky and get mad when you ask them for more soda when they are in the back talking.

The only airline that I have been 100% happy with is Jet Blue.

-174th

Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
Guest

RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:14 am

Is AA gonna make it  Confused
 
ORDUAL24
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:17 am

UAL is here to stay....i work the ramp and i DO care....polite to customers and do the best i can....proud to be UNION also!
GO IAM
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:24 am

I think the government will step in before they let UA go bust or any of the big 3 for that matter!
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
AMRAAM
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:34 am

Ordual24, I wouldn't be so confident or cozy if I were you.

The majors in the US have really lost touch. Their profits hinge on premium/business travelers while they stick it to the rest of us (the majority). They're turning into Greyhound/Amtrak cattle haulers.

People figure if they're going to get the shaft by the majors might as well go for the cheapest rates on airlines like JetBlue, Southwest, Ryanair, easyJet. Point to point, skipping congested hubs. These airlines are thriving in a very tough market.
 
Setjet
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:37 am

AMRAAN, you forgot a "?" in your title. Makes a big difference...
 
Braniff727
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:44 am

I don't want to start a fight here, but I don't want the government saving any airline, especially United or USAirways.

While I'm sure it's know that I'm not a big UAL fan, I don't want to have to pay for the mismanagement of a company simply because they are big and going under. I'm sorry, I work hard for my paycheck and I don't want it going to bail out an airline that can't get itself in shape.

Both U and UAL have been poorly run for years. If they can't make it, then it's time for them to turn off the lights and let other companies that are able to make good business decisions take their place.

American, Continental, Delta and Northwest are all doing quite well after 9/11. They have made decisions prior to 9/11 that made them far more financially sound, and they are surviving. United has poked fun at the age of the NW fleet, but you don't see NW looking for concessions from employees to get a loan garuntee, do you?

I truly feel bad for the situation those companies are in, but I don't want any of my tax dollars going to help them because of their own stupidity leading up to their current situation.
Climbing
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:48 am

I don't think just 'Sept 11' can be solely put down to all UAs problems, a contributing factor for sure,forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't they just post their 9th financial quarter or half year loss in a row, that puts it at long before Sept 11. I really do hope that UA stays. it has so much history, and is such a major player in the Global Airline market.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
174thfwff
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 6:41 am

Braniff727,
Exactly my thoughts as well!

-174thfwff
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
picarus
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 8:12 am

I guess I should have seen this one coming. It would be nice if everyone would just stop speculating about what, if, how, why, and when the next airline will file bankrupcty.

I'm sure it's fascinating to create all kinds of mysterious what-ifs, but it really does not serve any valuable purpose. Airlines have filed bankrupcty before and survive today (Continental--twice. American West--twice). They have also filed bankrupcty and disapeared completely (Pan Am, Eastern).

U S Air's bankrupcty filing a strategic move to gain DIP financing and time before it was pushed into bankrupty by creditors. United may follow the same path, or it may not. In the end, does anyone really believe that they can do anything about it one way or the other?

Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

Picarus
 
travatl
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:12 am

Braniff727 writes "American, Continental, Delta and Northwest are all doing quite well after 9/11." Uh, Not. They may be faring LESS BADLY, but they are all four FAR from doing quite well. Let's take a look:

AMERICAN - Lost $495 million in the second quarter and $1.07 billion in the first half of 2002. Passenger traffic fell 9.7 percent to 12.0 billion RPM in July, compared with 13.3 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity dropped 8.6 percent in July to 15.9 billion ASM.

CONTINENTAL - Lost $139 million in the second quarter and $305 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic at the No. 5 carrier fell 8.6 percent to 5.7 billion RPM in July, compared with 6.2 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity shrank by 10.1 percent to 7.2 billion ASM.

DELTA - Lost $186 million in the second quarter and $583 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic fell 6.6 percent to 9.72 billion RPM in July, compared with 10.4 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity fell 6.6 percent in July to 12.5 billion ASM.

NORTHWEST - Lost $93 million in the second quarter and $264 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic fell 8 percent to 6.98 billion RPM in July, compared with 7.59 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity dropped 8.5 percent in July to 8.7 billion ASM.

In comparison, yes UA's and US's numbers are worse, but there isn't anybody out of the woods yet with the exception of Southwest:

UNITED - Lost $341 million in the second quarter and $851 million in the first half of 2002. Passenger traffic fell 12.3 percent to 10.52 billion RPM in July, compared with 11.99 billion RPM a year earlier. Capacity fell 13.1 percent in July to 13.6 billion ASM.

USAIRWAYS - Lost $248 million in the second quarter and $517 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic fell 18.6 percent in July to 3.9 billion RPM, compared with 4.9 billion a year earlier. Capacity shrank 19.4 percent to 249 million ASM.

SOUTHWEST - Earned $102 million in the second quarter and $124 million in the first half of the year. Passenger traffic rose 0.4 percent to 4.33 billion RPM in July, compared with 4.31 billion a year earlier. Capacity grew 4 percent in July to 5.9 billion.

Travis
 
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RayChuang
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:42 am

I think UA will NOT go bust anytime soon.

The reasons are simple:

1. They have a very powerful international network (their transpacific network is profitable, and UA has the highly coveted access to LHR). UA looks like it's losing money big time, but only due to the fact we are talking a very large airline indeed.

2. UA has a important hubs at ORD, DEN and SFO. The DEN hub is very profitable for UA because there is essentially no serious competition there.

3. UA is a major player on the LAX-JFK and SFO-JFK routes, some of the busiest domestic routes in the world.

4. UA has many powerful friends in Congress, especially from Illinois, Colorado and California. This influence will ensure that UA will not need to go into Chapter 11 anytime soon.

5. UA's association with several regional airlines across the USA (SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, ASA (?) ) means there are plentiful feeds to UA's major hubs and other major UA destinations.

6. Being a founding member of Star Alliance, UA frequent flyers can fly to anywhere in the world and still get UA frequent flyer mileage in most of the airlines in the alliance.
 
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OA412
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:54 am

I think the government will step in before they let UA go bust or any of the big 3 for that matter!

Honestly, I would not bet on that! Sure, the government did step in to help out the airlines post-9/11 but I doubt they it will go out of its way to save UA or any other financially strapped carrier for that matter. If history offers us any lesson, the demise of EA, PA, TW, Branniff, etc., etc., are quite telling. If the government did not step in to save any of these pioneers of the American airline industry, why should/would they step in to help UA? Honestly, the government can save itself a lot of grief by allowing these airlines to go out of business and having others take their place than to try and save them from extinction.

Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:49 am

Some of you people have let your peronal feelings get in the way of objectivly looking at the situation. UA is not in the same position that US is in.

The only reason that UA is mulling over a Chapter 11 filing is because of a $900 million debt that needs to be refinaced this fall. I think that ua has some 2 billion dollars in assets that it own out right. In other words if UA can't get the debt refinaced they can sell off some of there assets to pay the bill.

US on the other hand was reported today to have 7.8 billion in debt and 7.3 billion in assets. Thats a far cry from UA's problem.

Also some of you apparently don't know what a loan gaurantee is. The US Goverment is co-signing a loan that an airline would get from the private sector. The taxpayer is only out money is the airline defaults on the private loan. If you drive a Dodge car today its because the US goverment gave a similar gaurantee to Chrysler in the early eighties. This is not unusual, the only thing unusual about it are the sircumstances that made bad times worse, saddled airlines w/ extra security costs and scared away customers.

UA has not been poorly run for years as someone said. It was poorly run for 2 years. See what the difference 2 years can make. UA was the worlds largest airline, profitable, and founding member of Star Alliance, before Goodwin. The big turn came in 1 YEAR 1 Summer, and the pilots had alot to do w/ it, not just management.

Lastly, UA will be fine, even if they file for Chapter 11 many airlines have before. You all like pointing out PanAm and Eastern. But you leave out CO which had an almost yearly habit of filing Chapter 11. They almost have turned a profit, they would have if the security costs where not straggling the airlines.

You peopel get your facts straight before making dire pronouncements, remember Dire pronouncements with out getting the facts straight got Goodwin fired.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:11 am

ualphlcs,
you have put that just wonderfully.

branniff727,
it is funny to hear you say you dont want your tax dollars going to helping out a poorly mismanaged airline?
instead you would rather have it going to a lazy sod on welfare sittin on his ass while YOU stagger off to work at o dark hundred?
cool,

and 1747thfwff,

i feel that this is your opinion, and i have mine that people dont agree with but i gots to say a couple things to remedy the situation.
first if you dont like the dog food then eat at mcdonalds that pretty much every major airport has,if you dont like mcdonalds pack a lunch.
second if you dont like the small seats ask for e+ and if they wont give it to you buy first class tkts next time.
and last you say that every employee you encounter is rude?
maybe you carry yourself the wrong way,maybe it's you? we have premiers fly out weekly on us in COS and there are a couple who are always cheerful and some who are always jerks.why? i dont know but nobody treats the jerks well and they see them comin and people run and hide.smile more and treat people the way you want to be treated yourself.
now there are those EMPLOYEES i dont even like to work next to,for they are rude and always hold a grudge.so if your ever in COS i'll check you in and i will smile for ya and if you say your from a.net i'll sneak you up to e+ for your whole trip on UAL.



ual 777 contrail
 
Braniff727
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:12 am

No, AA, CO, DL and NW are not doing well, but they are in no danger of bankruptcy. My point is that they aren't trying to get concessions from employees and worrying about bankruptcy. The reason is because they didn't make stupid decisions. UA and US did. End of story.

Poorly managed businesses will eventually get weeded out, and this might be their time.
Climbing
 
pecoua
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:15 am

Bravo UAL777, and after you check them in, I will kill them with kindness on board like I always do...I still love my job and treat me pax that way....

Keep up the good work and together we will survive. Big thumbs up
 
seven_fifty7
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:17 am

UALPHLCS is exactly right. All this blabbing about how "I don't won't my tax dollars going towards saving any airline" is coming out of the mouths of those who have no clue of what they're talking about.

Folks, for once and for all, a loan guarantee is NOT a "loan." Please read UALPHLCS's post.

Also, understand that when companies file for Chapter 11, it IS within the realm of possiblity that they can emerge from it successfully. It does NOT automatically mean the airline will "perish" by the following year (or two years, three years, or four years for that matter).

 
ual777contrail
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:18 am

we'll make it PECOUA,we'll pull through and come out a stronger airline.
we have alot of good employee's out there,keep smilin and doing the job your getting paid to do.

thanks pecoua



ual 777 contrail
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:39 am

FYI those of you who think UA can't make it without Goverment help and can get there hands on the Wall Street Journal should read the article in todays Journal about how UA DOSEN'T NEED THE MONEY, to survive. They explain that this is all a tactic to get concessions from labor and with Goverment backing get a better interest rate on the money they will eventually borrow. They have not even tried to go out and get a loan from banks. Why? Because it will be a higher interest rate. With a goverment garauntee the banks will lower the rate UA gets a better deal and the passengers get a better deal. Who do you think pays the interest on airline loans? Ticket buyers thats who. Some of you need to take a course in economics. I want UA to get the Goverment gaurantee, I think it will be good for the airline, and good for ticket prices in the long run.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UAL-Fan
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:11 pm

Maybe there are lot's of people out there like me. I am a 100,000 + mile a year traveler. After the summer from absolute hell, I just never went back. I have found that other carriers appreciate my business.

I honestly do not feel the US government will set the precedent of keeping this company from going under. If they do, where does it stop? All the other airlines would definitely be crying fowl.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:33 pm

Let me ask you a question UAL-Fan, why not come back?

The idea that a any large corporation could "personally" appreciate your business seems a bit much. Of course INDIVIDUALS within that corporation value your business very much. But as much as we would like to think that corporations are big mean immortal monsters, they are not. They are simply a form of business.

Also realize how frustrated employees felt during the Summer of Hell. I can't think of a single group of people that where happy about the problem other that the pilots. Oh sure they loved to tell us how sorry they were. But Pilots made mechanics lives miserable during that time. Finding the most miniscule things to delay or cancel over. They made Flight attendants lives miserable, by delaying or canceling their trips or leaving the F/A's to deal w/ the angry customers during the flight. Most of all they made Our lives in CS hell because WE are the customers advocate within the airline. WE Do the rebooking and deal with the irates and took it on the chin for their raise. So if you see a UA pilot on a flight and they are in a middle seat, CS probably put them there on purpose. CS was is and always will be on the customers side.

That out of the way, UA has made some incredible gains. We improved On-time, baggage, and cancellations, we are now well above the pack in these areas. We have maintained these levels during the busy summer schedule. PHL has had several days of 100% on-time with load factors on those days of well over 80%. In other words, this isn't the same airline it was in June, July and August of 2000. And there is more good to come. With the new CEO will come a new senior management staff and those who presided over the Merger folly and the Pilots contract fiasco will be gone.

My point is, and then I will get off my soapbox UAL-Fan, that a company is just a company, it is incapable of appreciating you. UA's people do appreciate your business, and do want you back.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
RoyalDutch
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:50 pm

I feel bad to see any carrier going under, because I know there are lots of good employees out there who will suffer...so I certianly hope that UA can make it, for their sake alone. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if its since Sept. 11th or has always been this way, but my first (and hopefully last) two experiences with UAL this summer went from unpleasant to downright stupid inconsideration by UAL employees. So to all you decent UAL workers out there, my best wishes, but next time I'm flying AA...they need the business too, and in my experience, they've shown a lot more appreciation.
 
Westjet!Eh!
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:58 pm

I would like to say goooooodbye to United Airlines...I'm gonna miss it! :-(
 
klwright69
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:12 pm

RayChuang..... I'm not sure having powerful friends in Congress makes any difference whatsoever in whether a company files chapter 11. I'm sure CO, TW, HP have had powerful political friends in Texas, Missouri, and Arizona, respectively but they were forced to file Chapter 11 anyway.

Here in Denver, F9 is very popular and serves many destinations from here. If if everyone were so happy with UA, F9 wouldn't thrive like they have been.

Yes, UA has a lot of great assets. However if all this was built on a business model that's no longer relevant, that could be a major problem. Plus other carriers would be delighted to relieve UA of some of their assets that you mentioned, if UA needed to make some tough choices. I doubt much of that will be necessary though, UA can reorganize under chapter 11, stay mostly intact, and go on their merry way in life, just like CO did.

I wonder how UA is doing in Latin America now. It seems lately DL, CO, and AA are becoming the major players in that region.
 
flymia
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:15 pm

Again Hopefully and probly not but if UA gose down i for sure see Delta taking over is South American Routes and some othe INT routes. hopefully not though.

Knock on wood



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UALPHLCS
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:05 pm

Good Lord do any of you people READ. Westjet, is that you professional opinion? HAve any of you actually read the other posts? Let me try to get you all to understand UA IS NOT US. We are not filing for Chapter 11, Chapter 11 is not a closure of an airline, AND UA IS in decnt finacial shape considering the security costs, the lack of customers due to 9-11 and the slow economy. THE ONE and ONLY reason UA is telegraphing to the world that it may file for chapter 11 is to get out fromunder a $900 million debt it has to restructure. If UA can persuade the goverment to gaurantee the loan UA will get a better interest rate, IF they can't guess what?... UA has $2.2 billion in airplane assets that it owns outright. They can sell those and pay off the debt. If some of you actually read what others post intead of just posting without any reason to your comment you would know this all already.

UA is talking about totally restructering the fares it charges, and changing the buisness model. BUT, that won't start until a new CEO is in charge. So all things considered I am buying UAL at historic lows cuase in a few months its going to rebound.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:21 pm

Well working at DTW I see some of Northwest's problems too.

This past week some of Northwest's workers were picketing at the ticketing level of the new Midfield terminal with some of the unfair labor practices- employees getting hurt on the job etc.

One of the issues happening in Detroit was that the Northwest CSA's are short staffed downstairs in the International arrivals section. Several CSA's are still layed off from Sept 11, but instead of bringing them back to work, Northwest was using Prospect employees to load the transfering passengers luggage on the belts in the customs area after the checked luggage went thru customs and needs to be rechecked. The Prospect employees are kids about 16-20 making 6 bucks an hour. They were not checking tags and half of the luggage they were putting back on the belts had DTW tags on them and they were throwing around a lot of the luggage too.

I agree though with what was said, I don't think our tax dollars should go to bail out an airline. I can understand the sept 11 bailout, but NO MORE. If United must go belly up then it goes belly up. Why should my tax dollars help an airline that doesnt treat its passengers well?
 
LJ
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:35 pm

Just like UALPHLCS correctly puts it UAL's possible Chapter 11 talk is nothing more than a way of getting the concessions it wants. Even if they declare Chapter 11, they will remain operating like US is doing now and will use Chapter 11 to put a knife on all UAL creditors and employees. As one baknruptcy laywer put it yesterday on CNBC. UAL (and USAirways) will remain. The only question willl be who will own the airlines after the debt restructure and how big the airline will be.

Regards
Laurens
 
174thfwff
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:43 pm

My dads friends businesses are failing, why doesn't the government help them out?
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
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STT757
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:28 am

I would just like to add a couple comments,

First can we all agree that if that bloated purchase of US Airways had gone through a couple years ago that the combined UAL and U would have gone out of business already, not bankruptcy but literally closed it's doors.

AA is definetly regretting buying TWA in bankruptcy, they would be in much better financial shape and they wouldn't have to be the bad guys they are now. Most of the layoffs and cutbacks are effecting TWA employees, and the system cutbacks AA is making (and the others they will likely make this Winter) will reduce AA's size to what they were prior to the TWA purchase.

Alot of these companies like WorldCom, AOL/Timewarner, Vivendi are suffering because they got too big too quick.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:45 am

I think that I am actually the only person here ready for the bankruptcy and embracing it with open arms.

There is no question in my mind that United will survive the bankruptcy, and will turn out to be a leaner, stronger flying machine. As we all know, one of the main sticking points with the loan are the wage concessions which will be asked for by United. With the exception of management and the pilots [shudder], every employee is at or below industry standard wages. By no means are any of these people making great money! But on the flipside, with the most senior pilots currently raking in $350,000 per year, about to go up to $400,000, something has to be done with their salaries. If United asks for concessions from only the pilots (where the real labor cost issues are), they're going to scream bloody murder because they would be the only group giving up money.

However, the way I see it with a bankruptcy, no judge is going to ask a flight attendant who makes between $14,000 and $40,000 to give money back to help the company, yet he will order the pilots to give up a good chunk of their enormously large salary. Pilots won't sit there and bitch about being the only group to see wage cuts this time, as it is mandated by the courts.

Just for fun, look at this math:

2,500 pilots make $150,000
2,500 pilots make $180,000
2,500 pilots make $250,000
2,500 pilots make $350,000

If the courts were to cut their salaries by just 33%, the pilot groups would still be making this amount each year:

2,500 pilots would make $100,000
2,500 pilots would make $120,600
2,500 pilots would make $167,500
2,500 pilots would make $234,500

The money saved each year just by dropping those costs by 33% is a pretty good chunk of money which could be ploughed back into the company: $768,500,000.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
na
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 2:33 am

FLY777UAL,
it would be wonderful, if this could happen. I mean its their own company and their own stocks that are at risk! But its always the same, the employees needed most get the most money. They know it and therefore in most cases are the last to make concessions.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 9:14 am

UA is talking about totally restructering the fares it charges, and changing the buisness model. BUT, that won't start until a new CEO is in charge.

Speaking of a new CEO, just how close is UA to choosing one?

This article

indicates they are "close", but it seems like I've been reading that for several weeks now. This October will make a year since Goodwin left, and Jack Creighton was only supposed to be temporary.

Also, do you think UA will be at somewhat of a disadvantage if the new CEO is someone from outside the industry as the above article suggests?

LoneStarMike

 
tzMSP
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 9:51 am

Braniff727:

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a NW fan. I love the airline, and even own stock in it. But before we toot NW's horn too loudly, let us never forget that the State of Minnesota bailed NW out of a major mismanagement and labour crisis in 1992, loaning the airline $900MIL at reduced-interest rates in order to keep it in business. There is still resentment among native Twin Citians and Minnesotans that NW got a great deal at taxpayer expense.

Though you've argued your point well about government not supporting airlines, NW is alive today because of the taxpayers of the State of Minnesota.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy tzMSP
 
ual777contrail
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 11:43 am

lonestarmike,
it sure cant hurt to have a ceo from outside the aviation industry.look at what goodwin did to UAL.he has been with UNITED for like 37 years. he got his golden parachute and screwed the company up so bad. so i say hire someone outside the industry and fire rono dutta before the new ceo takes another breath.and all the other morons from dutta down.

just my opinion

ual 777 contrail
 
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STT757
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 11:53 am

Didn't Leo Mullin of Delta airlines use to head a Power company?..

And what about Donald Carty? I know he's Canadian but where else hs he managed?.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
padcrasher
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:06 pm

Frankly, you could bring Jack Welch in here and he would get nowhere.
Unions are just too powerful in the airline industry. You either pay or you're crippled by a strike. This whole industry is going nowhere until this the bargaining system is fixed. Go with the system that Major League baseball has where each side presents one bid to an arbitrator who then picks the one that is most realistic. CO pilots asking for a raise in this environment would be laughed out of the room. The NW mechanic raise would have never happened, the last UA pilot contract would have never happened. This industry would be a lot healthier today.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:12 pm

there needs to be a cap on everything, a pilot isnt worht making $500,000 a year.

a mechanic isnt worth making $100,000 a year.

a CSR isnt workth making over $75,000 a year.

a f/a isnt worth making over $22,000 a year(just kdding)

all i have to say is cap the damn industry.

there has to be a ceiling.
what do you think?

ual 777 contrail
 
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STT757
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:18 pm

Do you really wat to use baseball as an analogy for collective bargaining?

Baseball and the airlines need to cap salaries and improve the health of their leagues/industry.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Mexicana757
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:40 pm

UAL will survive, UAL is to big to go out just like that, the government wouldn't let it happen. And for those of you who say " oh I don't want the government to be spending my tax money on rescuing United," Maybe you should ask yourself, why the government rescues Amtrak all the time with your tax dollars. Amtrak is a government Subsidiary that hasn't made a profit since it started operations.
 
tu154m
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RE:Ual777contrail

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:48 pm

Ual777contrail,
When you state that a mechanic is not worth $100,000.....
A)Do you feel safe when flying?
B)Does your job require you to have a working knowledge of say 8-10 commercial airliners, all with different hydraulics, autopilots, flight control systems...I could go on and on.
C)If there is ever an incident, who does the FAA come for first? Whose license is at risk everytime an airworthiness release is signed?
D)Who is the first person to get called every time a pilot or flight attendant or baggage handler has a problem with an airplane, no matter how big or small?
E)Do you actually know any airline mechanics that come close to $100,000 a year????????
I could go on and on....my point is that someone who ensures the safety of the travelling public(sometimes a couple thousand people fly between routine checks) is entitled to a good salary. Most people have no idea what an airline mechanic, whether they be a line tech or a hanger tech, deal with on a daily basis. Most are in it because they love airplanes, not because it is worth it financially. Yes, pilots have a huge responsibility.....but those that maintain their systems and make their job a little easier should be a little closer in salary.
Steve
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
Canadian747
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sat Aug 17, 2002 12:57 pm

Look!

you in the state you are lucky the US government bails out the airlines, Take an example Here in canada we had Canadi>n witch had a major pacific influence... but they failed my prediction all thought that the Star Alliance is the major on through the world is that UA and US will bite the dust just like Pan Am and Eastern........... And to alll the major airlines in the world START treating your passengers and employees like people and maybe then they will fly again.... And September 11th was just a major nail in US and UA's coffin.

That is my opinion
Canadi>n747
My Trave travel agent YQM
 
ual777contrail
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sun Aug 18, 2002 6:50 am

TU154M,
dont preach to me about do i feel safe when i fly crap,do you feel safe when you fly?
there has to be a ceiling,or should be.that is why airlines are having these problems right now.so let me turn it around here steve.do you think a pilot should be paid $500,000 to $750,000 a year?

do you think the guys and gals who load your bags,deal with security issues that the other two job groups dont have to deal with should be paid $95,000 a year? just to load bags? so if you beleive that these mechanics work from dusk to dawn humpin ass all day long then you are a fool.i deal with mechanics 3 to 4 times a week and i see what they do.dont preach to me,ok steve.

do you even know any pilots????? come on steve,you really dont beleive the non-sense you wrote?

i was asking a queston,i will repeat it. do you think there should a ceiling as to the max that one should or could get paid to perform their respected duties? when is enough,enough?

those figures i gave were examples.


ual 777 contrail

 
tu154m
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Ual777Contrail!

Sun Aug 18, 2002 1:37 pm

Contrail,
I will preach to you about feeling safe......safety should and IS the most important thing about flying!!! I don't care if it is United or CapeAir flying Cessna 402s!!!!! And, name ONE person throwing bags that is clearing $95,000 a year. If it was that good I wouldn't have left to pursue a different work area. And NO, I do not believe these mechanics "hump ass all day long". I know, as I am a mechanic.....we hump ass 8-10hrs at a time!!! Oh, I forgot, you see what we do, so you know what it is like to have a 767 fully loaded and the pilot discover a discrepancy which we have to fix.....sometimes having to lay an aircraft down for SAFETY. About the pilots......my next door neighbor is a pilot, and in my daily job duties, I come across about 30-40 on a one-to-one basis. Other than that I didn't even know they existed. I thought the front seats were for the best frequent fliers and unaccompanied minors. I do however, agree that there needs to be a cap.....for ground personnel, mechanics, pilots, AND MANAGEMENT. Just like professional sports.........I say let baseball strike.....maybe it will put them back on our planet. Anyway, your profile does not say what you do for UA??? Where do you work and what do you do?(just so I can get a reference to where all this mtc bashing is coming from....hehe)
Steve
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
Rhino4ever
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RE: United Next In Line To File Chapter 11

Sun Aug 18, 2002 11:09 pm

How will UAL pay these loans back. They aren't even close to supporting their cost structure as it is. Their recent pay hike and work rules are very unproductive in cost per seat mile and being competitive. They were in serious trouble long before 9/11. I doubt they will get the employees to give anything near what USAir got to justify giving them a loan. They should be asked to downsize as USAir is doing, and sell assets and leases to get to a manageable size. They got themselves into this mess and shouldn't be allowed to get a bailout for incompetence. They have had how many CEO's in the recent past? Far too many to have any consistent culture. And a lousy business plan on top of everything. In our free market system, many other businesses that have made all the blunders UAL has consistently done has gone out of business. They have consistently been near the bottom in on-time performance, high in customer complaints, etc...

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