PIAforME
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SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:10 pm

Daily danish tabloid EkstraBladet is telling abt. a SIA 737 with 276 souls on board emergency landing in CPH (EKCH) 2 hours ago.

It must be a 777 and not a 737 as the newspaper is quoting (first thing newspapers mix up is the modelname).

Safe landing conducted - anyone with more details?

PIAforME
Kamran Sarwar
 
Rick767
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:19 pm

No details on the event itself, save to say that they must have meant 777. Single engine approach and landing is no big problem, it's easier than you would think and it is mandatory for every pilot to be trained in the simulator to carry out such a procedure every 6 months.

Whilst I have never done one for real (except in training) I imagine it would be like second nature. That's the idea anyway!
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
A320-addict
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:35 pm

He Rick 767...

Are you really an airline pilot?! In the previous topic you ask yourself who did the abort (don't know in your company, but I think it is ALWAYS the captain that does the abort), which sound pretty basic to me, and here you state that you are indeed an airline pilot (like your profile says as well)


pretty confusing....  Confused


AA

 
Rick767
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:44 pm

If you read the topic in question you will note that my question posed how he knew it was the Captain who had aborted the takeoff and not the First Officer (if you go back to my most recent post on that thread you will note that in my airline and many others, it can be either).
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
A320-addict
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:50 pm

Interesting....

I have flown so far 737 (200-300-400-500) and A32F (319-320-321), and as I recall the official airbus and boeing manuals always state that CM1 performs the abort. How come your company does not follow this philosophy?!

Who holds the throttles at your company during the take-off roll?!
How does the captain state during the take-off roll who will do the abort.... I have controls you have controls?! abort or not?


still confused, but interesting to have an other point of view on the aborted take-off.
 
CPH-R
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:04 pm

Kamran/PIAforMe

I think it must have been the daily flight out of EKCH. It leaves at 12 noon, and if the engine went bust right after take off, it must have been easiest for them to return straight away.

KD_Larsen
 
Rick767
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:09 pm

For the benefit of those who did not read my post on my companys SOP on rejected takeoffs:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/902431/

I think the Boeing and Airbus manuals do state the procedure you use. I thought most airlines had moved away from this with current thinking on enhancing CRM aspects of such events? Certainly BA moved over to this new procedure in the early 90s. In the same manner, many airlines still do not allow the first officer to taxy the aircraft. Most early Boeings do not have nosewheel steering tillers on the f/o side, and as far as I know some airlines actually request not to have them fitted!

Like BA, our airline allows a complete role reversal during f/o sectors including taxy and aborted takeoff (with only a slight difference in the latter procedure).

The throttles are held throughout the takeoff by the flying pilot (P1, which confusingly can be the captain or f/o so I prefer the term "flying pilot"). Legally the Captain is always P1, but our company call it "In Command under supervision" (P1 ICUS) when the f/o is flying pilot.

The aborted takeoff procedure is fully briefed by the handling pilot prior to pushback, and 99% of the time we run to Standard Operating Procedures so there is rarely any ambiguity. The pilot taking control of the aircraft will do so using the normal phraseology as defined in our SOPS ("I have control" / "You have control").

The takeoff is aborted below V1 by the command of "Stop", from either crewmember. This can be called for fire, engine failure (2 or more confirming parameters noted), configuration warning, or in addition by the Captain for any reason he/she sees fit. So the first officer can only call stop for a fire, engine failure, configuration warning, siginificant handling difficulty (on his sector) or a blocked runway.

Would be interested to know how all this works in your airline.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Mr.BA
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:10 pm

Given the B777 has the extra feature that other twin jets don't have it would be easier. But another engine failure on SIA's B777s? Good luck to them on their desire to have 180ETOPS. Glad everything went okay.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
9v-svc
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:12 pm

I agree with you Mr BA .
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
tsentsan
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:13 pm

Would this mean the end of SIA's bid for 180ETOPS?
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jetskipper
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:18 pm

As far as I know the 777 is the only aircraft Boeing makes that is certified for autoland approaches on one-engine. If this crew wanted to they would not have had to disconnect the autopilot at all.

FYI. At the airline I work for if it is the F.O.'s leg, the F.O. advances the thrust levers, and when near the N1 target tells the CPT to "set thrust". At this point the F.O. no longer has his hands on the thrust levers, and ultimate autority to reject is given to the CPT. In the event of a rejected takeoff the CPT calls "reject, reject" and retards the thrust levers to idle, and into reverse if necesary. At this point the CPT calls "I have the controls", and from that point on the CPT completes the rejected takeoff procedure, leaving the F.O. to inform ATC, and inform the passengers to "remain seated, remain seated". If there is any problems (power loss, engine fire, unrelated caution or warning) after V1 the F.O. maintains control of the aircraft and continues the takeoff and when at an appropriate altitude calls for the require memory items or instructs the CPT to reference the appropriate QRH checklist.
 
A320-addict
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:27 pm

He Rick thx for explaining your company sop's during an abort.

This is how it goes at my current company:

-On the ground we give a briefing about the rejected take-off. We do not discuss the actions, because these will always be the same, no matter who is flying. We discuss the take-off as being critical or not critical, so we would be rather go-minded or stop minded, based as well on the performance calculations we did.

-Take-off thrust is ALWAYS set by the captain, and he remains at the controls of the thrust levers at all time.

-Abort is called by the Captain by calling out :"Stop" with these words he takes control of the aircraft, (he does not have to state I have controls, it is included in the stop) closes the thrust levers and applies Max reverse.

-All systems that help the aircraft to decelerate are monitored by the FO
(RTO function, spoilers, reversers.) At my current company, we just monitor them, and do NOT make a callout unless something is not functioning properly.
(so it is rather silent during our initial abort sequence... which I have to say I am not too fond of, but the philosophy is that the priority is to stop the aircraft first and not to leave the runway)

-FO calls 70kts during the deceleration (normally full reverse should be brought back to idle, but MAY still be used if necessary in the interest of safety)

-Captain sets the parking brake, and FO makes sure it is set.

-From now on the aircrafts systems will be monitored and from this comes the decision to evacuate or not.

 
Zander
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:29 pm

Nice to hear that everything went okay.

CPH-R,
The SIA flight is thrice weekly not daily as you said.
It would be great if it will be daily in the future.
And one more thing it departs at 11.30  Big grin

Alex
 
Mr.BA
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:00 pm

SQ 351 is estimated at SIN 0541, 24 minutes ahead of schedule. Weird.
Boeing747 万岁!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:21 pm

This is a most unfortuante incident.

I see nothing from AP / AFP / Yahoo / Reuters / Dow Jones so far but I'll try and see what articles if any can be found tomorrow.

The most recent SIA information is regarding the good traffic figures for July.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
CPH-R
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:26 pm

Zander

I never look at the timetables, I usually judges by the time they fly over my head at Kystvejen.... and the last few times I've been there, they usually departed at 12 noon Big grin

.. and a minor update: It was a birdstrike that caused it to return to CPH. They were, as far as I understood, stil within CPH airspace, so it mut have been right after takeoff.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Fri Aug 16, 2002 12:41 am

My company seems to do it in exactly the same way as A320-Addict's. The Captain always sets take-off thrust regardless of who is PF or PNF. Abort procedures will always be the same, and during the departure brief we say "This will be a company standard departure...". This implies standard crew actions in case of any abort. If we do abort, the Captain will call "Abort" and do everything. The FO monitors his actions and calls anything he has missed. Apart from that, the FO and Captain roles are pretty much reversable, normally. However, we do have different limits for the pilots. For example, Max crosswind on the 777 in CX is 38kts for Captains, 15kts for FOs. FOs are also not allowed to autoland, or do night visual approaches into certain airports. We also have weather restrictions as well, below which the Captain has to land, autoland or not.

Mr BA + Tsentsan,

I believe that bird strikes do not affect the ability to get ETOPS, as it does not reflect on the company's maintenance or operational procedures, or engine reliability. If this was indeed due to a birdstrike then SQ does not have to worry about ETOPS. When the ETOPS trials were being performed prior to the 777 entering airline service I know of one case where an engine shed a blade on departure. Obviously this would have had a major impact on the ETOPS effort, but the engine had apparently had a birdstrike 2 days earlier that had not caused any damage after checks. They attributed the engine failure to the earlier birdstike. I am not sure if it was justified or not, but it had the desired effect of keeping the service record!!
 
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Jofa
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Fri Aug 16, 2002 12:59 am

Cx flyboy

"If this was indeed due to a birdstrike then SQ does not have to worry about ETOPS."

According to http://ekstrabladet.dk/ it was a birdstrike.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:32 am

http://ekstrabladet.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=173618

Plane does emergency landing at Kastrup (Airport)

A Boeing 777 plane belonging to Singapore Airlines with 276 passengers on board had problems on Thursday afternoon after a bird flew into one of the plane's engines.

Information from Kastrup police indicates that the pilot made a landing with only one engine.

The pilot emptied the plane (my note: he jettisoned fuel) to make the plane as light as possible. Furthermore, he got the engine shut down, says a person in charge.

They could land afterwards without any problem.

When the Falck received a message, he sent some ambulances to Kastrup Airport where they went on a so-called Standby 2 alarm.

Information was gathered from the above hyperlinked website. My comments are clearly defined in brackets with 'My note:' preceeding the comment. Full information can be viewed by clicking the above hyperlink

Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
tsentsan
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:57 am

From what info I have, it wasnt a bird strike. It was a fire warning in the engine.
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777236ER
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Fri Aug 16, 2002 4:29 am

A320-Addict and Cx flyboy,

I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job or professing to know more than you, just ask a few questions.

So can an F/O initiate an abort? If the f/o is the handling pilot and calls "Abort" will the aircraft be stopped automatically with no discussion? If this isn't the case, then surely this doesn't really promote CRM.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:22 am

With AirMalta the PF for that sectors starts the engines and does everything a PF does except taxi the plane (because there is no tiller on the 737 - on the A320 the FO taxis if flying with a training capt) including performing a GA if necessary. I think it is a good system as it prepares the FO for his eventual command and minimises confusion on the flight deck.
 
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Jofa
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:31 am

So, does anyone know how the passengers finally got to Singapore?
 
bells
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine L

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:38 am

This was NOT an inflight shutdown and was NOT a birdstrike.

Part of the cowling came off on take-off. Tower informed the crew. Crew decided to return as a precaution.

The engine wasn't shut down - this was purely a nacelle problem.

Sorry guys!
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 11:00 am

777236ER,

During the takeoff roll, if the FO is PF, his eyes will be firmly outside and he/she will occassionally glance in to have a look. The Captains hands are on the thrust levers and chances are if there is anything wrong, he will notice first and call abort. He will takeover and do the abort.
If the Captain is PF, his hand are on the levers and the FO sits there and monitors everything. If she/he sees anything unusual it is up to them to call it. The Captain's eyes are firmly outside for the takeoff roll. However, it is the Captains decision whether to abort or not. If we see something, we call what we see, and not 'abort'. If we see a fire, we call 'fire', if there is an engine failure, we call 'engine failure'. It is then the Captain who will decide, then call either "abort' or 'continue'. Obviously if it is a serious problem, and the FO calls 'abort' resulting in an abort, I doubt that he/she would get into trouble.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 11:17 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Colin Abbott



So it's a bird strike?
Boeing747 万岁!
 
AWspicious
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:00 pm

Well, I may not know for sure if it was a bird strike, an engine fire, or a cowling seperation, but, I did learn the Danish words for the days of the week. Lordag looks like a good day.


aw
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
bells
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine L

Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:13 pm

Mr.BA - read my post above. No it wasn't a birdstrike.

Have you ever seen a bird fly into the back of an engine?
 
Mr.BA
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:18 pm

Apologies Bells somehow I missed it, sorry!

Would this affect ETOPS?
Boeing747 万岁!
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 2:55 pm

A bird COULD cause damage that dislodges fan blades which come out the back end ripping cowling with it. It is very possible.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:36 pm

Singapore Airlines has now confirmed the unfortunate incident.

---
Singapore Airlines has confirmed that a plane bound for Singapore from Copenhagen had to return to Copenhagen as some debris fell from the aircraft's engine.

"A Boeing 777-ER aircraft turned back to Copenhagen on August 15, 2002 after the captain had been advised by air traffic control that some debris might have fallen from the left engine."

270 passengers were on board the aircraft.

The plane (My note: 9V-SVI) was making it's 10th flight.

The captain did not shut down the Rolls Royce Trent 892 engine. He dumped fuel.

More information at the Reuters / Forbes website

Information was gathered from the above hyperlinked webpage. Full information can be viewed by clicking the above hyperlink. My comments are clearly noted in brackets with 'My note:' preceeding any comment.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine L

Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:37 pm

If a fan blades goes off, it should never come out of the engine. Such an engine would never a certification. It is in both JAR and FAR regulations.

SailorOrion
 
Guest

RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:49 pm

Maybe i missed it somewhere here, but can anyone come foreward with a registration ?
thanks
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:08 pm

Pakistania: it was the newly delivered 777-200ER Jubilee 9V-SVI.

See the post above:

Username: Mr.BA
Posted 2002-08-17 04:17:40 and read x times.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
jesseycy
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2001 2:15 pm

RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine L

Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:32 pm

Yipes, that looks bad.... Singapore Airlines seem to have run into a whole series of bad luck lately......

Let's hope they get some good luck back soon!!!!! Or then again, will these incidents suggest some error in their maintenance?
 
jesseycy
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2001 2:15 pm

RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine L

Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:37 pm

Regarding to above post,
I thought I'll clarify what I mean by error in maintenance... I DO NOT mean their new plane. Just thought I'll say that, in case someone flames me for accusing a brand new plane of maintenance error.....
 
tsentsan
Posts: 1921
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:48 pm

RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:57 pm

Quoted by:
Username: Bells
Posted 2002-08-17 06:13:24 and read 127 times.
Mr.BA - read my post above. No it wasn't a birdstrike.
Have you ever seen a bird fly into the back of an engine?



Errr.... I think it only happens to a certain aircraft we all know  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
JUST JOKINGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Rick767
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:02 pm

Cx_flyboy,

"it is the Captains decision whether to abort or not."

That's a weird procedure. How can the Captain possibly be in a position, for example, to determine whether the First Officer is experiencing any significant handling difficulties during his takeoff roll?

In my company the procedure is quite clear, the call is "STOP" from either crewmember

Up to V1 the First Officer (as P1 or P2) may call stop for:

- Any Fire
- Engine failure (2 or more confirming parameters)
- Configuration Warning
- A significant handling difficulty
- A blocked runway

The Captain can call stop (again as P1 or P2) for all of the above, plus his own decision.

Any other malfunction not listed above will be called by the non-handling pilot, and the Captain will then announce "STOP" or "CONTINUE".

Now I am not being critical of your company's procedures, but it seems to me that no thought of CRM has really been applied. What if the Captain suffers an incapacitation during the takeoff roll and becomes unable to say stop? I think the First Officer can be trusted to make the decision personally, after all he too is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.

Out of interest, is it also only the Captain @ CX who can decide to go around?
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Ejazz
Posts: 689
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:11 pm

Rick,

The procedure outlined by Cx_flyboy for CX is exactly the same for Singapore Airlines. The decision to abort is the Captains and his only.

That is not to say I agree with it. Our F/O's are trained and checked on their ability to reject a take-off every six months. The day an engine fails and the F/O is flying I think natural instinct will take over. To try and prevent this the F/O never has control of the thrust levers.
Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:46 pm

Ejazz,

Thanks for that info. It seems my airline's procedures are less common than I thought amoungst other airlines around the world. I know that British Airways use the same takeoff and RTO procedures as us in their SOPs.

I guess our procedure works better given that the flying pilot has control of the thrust levers during regardless of how many stripes are on his shoulders! If the Captain had the thrust levers during the First Officer's takeoff I can see the logic behind it being his decision to abort, but I maintain that the First Officer should be able to make that decision for a blocked runway, flight control malfunction or loss of thrust.

From what I Cx_flyboy said it seems that the First Officer would have to announce "blocked runway!" then leave it to the Captain to decide what to do. Those vital seconds wasted could result in an accident IMHO.

Also would be interested to hear in Singapore Airlines do the f/o's taxy the aircraft on their sector?
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Ejazz
Posts: 689
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RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 8:08 pm

Hi Rick,

I would like to see F/O's given the responsibility to determine whether a take-off should be continued or not. It might be the low experience level of many of the F/O's that lies behind the procedures. Some F/O's on all fleets have less than 400 hours total time when they check out.

The F/O's on all fleets taxi the aircraft although parking must be done by the Captain when the lead in and parking system is biased to the Captains side.

Cheers
Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:13 pm

Ejazz,

Yeah we have the parking exception too.

Basically we are permitted to do a complete role reversal between Captain and First Officer (entire allocation of duties reversed). Of course responsibility is not reversed, the Captain remains to hold full ultimate responsibility for the "safe and efficient conduct of the flight".

With that in mind, the following caveats are placed on the First Officer ICUS (In Command Under Supervision) flying:

Compete role reversal is subject to the First Officer's handling limitations and experience
Captain must sign the Tech Log etc.. and be satisfied they are correct
Slightly modified RTO procedure
First Officers cannot fly an autoland as P1
Stand Guidance systems - First Officer Sector - if the visual guidance system is aligned with the left seat, captain must take temporary control to align aircraft and set parking brake. Once the brake is on, duties revert back to F/o as P1

I must say it is fascinating seeing how other airlines do it. I know of a few UK operators who don't even allow the F/o to do engine starts and taxy on their sector. This leads to a handover of control at the start of the runway and the end of the landing roll, the latter I think is particularly hazardous.

One of my friends who flies as a f/o at an airline using that procedure is always telling of the captain "tweaking up" the power as he lines up on the runway being told "you have control" before he is fully ready.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6056
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: SIA Emergency Landing In CPH - Single Engine Land.

Mon Aug 19, 2002 4:23 pm

Rick767.

I agree that I think it would be a good idea for the FOs to decide as well about aborting a takeoff. It would be great if we had control of the thrust levers for takeoff, but I guess there are reasons for having it the way it is. (not sure of any good ones, but I am sure someone has a reason!)
As far as CRM goes in CX, I cannot really fault them. Every other aspect of the flight involves the FO just as much, including engine starts (Captain can only do a manual start on the 777). However FO's are not allowed to do autolands as PF, as your airline does. For a go-around, anyone can call it, and it is considered not a critical or highly dangerous manouvre, so you do it, then talk about it later. I guess the take-off abort is a critical and potentially dangerous situation.
It certainly is interesting to see how others do it.

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