dc-10 levo
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American And The 747

Sat Aug 31, 2002 7:29 pm

 Smile Hi everyone!  Smile

I have recently been looking throught the database and noticed that American have never had the Boeing 747-400. (There are no photos in the database.)
Why don't they consider buying some 747's as they are a big company and it would help them in many ways.
Most big companies today have 747's so why not American?

DC-10
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: American And The 747

Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:32 pm

747s aren't too popular with American carriers today - only United and Northwest operate them. Not that there's anything wrong with the 747, but the smaller 777 is better suited to the needs of American Airlines and most other American carriers. Just because they are a big company doesn't mean big planes are what they need, epecially after 9/11 when passenger levels have been down.

Shamrock_747
 
Dalmd88
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RE: American And The 747

Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:45 pm

AA did operate the 747-200 at one time. I believe the Space Shuttle Transporter is a former AA plane.
 
EGGD
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RE: American And The 747

Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:57 pm

I think they operated 747-100's actually.. and they got them pretty early too (1973???)..

hmm.
 
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American 767
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RE: American And The 747

Sat Aug 31, 2002 9:22 pm

Yes, they did. They received their first Boeing 747-100 back in 1970 when the aircraft was brand new. The type was ordered for high-density long haul domestic flights, for example the route JFK-LAX which American has flown for decades, and was the launch customer for the Douglas DC-10 which entered service one year later. The 747-100's remained in the fleet until the early 80's when a deal was worked out with Pan Am for the exchange of 747's against DC-10's, like you say one of them went to NASA to carry the Space Shuttle. Pan Am would get the ex-American 747's and American would get back the ex-Pan Am (origninally operated by National) DC-10's. So in the mid 80's, American was done with the 747 and had a large number of DC-10's, but in 1987 it acquired two ex-TWA B747-SP's for the long haul flight to Japan. At that time DFW-NRT was the only transpacific flight American had. The two 747-SP's remained in service only on that route until the early 90's when the MD-11 entered service on transpacific flights, DFW-NRT of course, but other flights to NRT were added, those were SJC-NRT and SEA-NRT. The SP's remained in service for another year on the daily JFK-BRU flight and were finally removed in 1992 in favor of the more efficient B767 on that route. That's the whole story of the Boeing 747 at American Airlines.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
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yyz717
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RE: American And The 747

Sat Aug 31, 2002 9:40 pm

The original AA 741 order was for 16 aircraft. They quickly proved themselves unsuitable for the AA domestic network, and the fleet dwindled into the early 80's with a number converted into cargo.

AA used the 741 on the DFW-LGW route when BN collapsed & AA inherited the route.

AA applied for the ORD-NRT route in the early 90's and make tentative arrangements to add 2 ex-CP 744's for that route. The authority did not happen and the purchase collapsed.

Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
blink182
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RE: American And The 747

Sat Aug 31, 2002 11:47 pm

Right now, acquiring a 744 would kill AA.

As it is, they really do not have a huge need for them. The 777s are suitably well for AA on their high density routes. Also, AA has a lot of partners across the Atlantic and Pacific, so AA really does not need them for range purposes as their partners' 747s do the flying to AA hubs.

Also, AA 777s across the Pacific do them well. AA doesn't have the capacity even pre- 9/11 to really require the use of them.

As much as I'd love to see an AA 744, it would take a miracle for that to happen.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:08 am

American operated 20 various 747s thru the years...2 -121s on loan from Pan Am when AA's first of 16 -123s were being assembled, and of course the 2 ex-TWA's SPs. American today, has adopted a 'twin-engined powered fleet only' policy, to keep the all-around cost down. I don't foresee AA ever having the 747-400. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
B747-437B
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RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:21 am

This information is accurate as of January 2002.

On November 1, 1966, American Airlines, represented by their then CEO, Cyrus Rowland Smith, placed orders for 16 Boeing 747-123s, with deliveries beginning in 1970.

However, in early 1967, Bruce Connelly, the VP of Sales, at Boeing disclosed that the initial 747 design would fall short of performance targets. American's VP of Engineering, Frank Kolk, accordingly formed a consortium featuring American, United, Eastern, TWA and Delta to develop a set of requirements for an alternate design that they initially called the "Jumbo Twin Air Bus". These requirements featured 220-230 seats, 1850nm range and a weight of 270,000 lbs to allow it to operate from LGA. The twin engine concept was modified to a tri-jet at the request of Eastern and TWA to allow them to operate it overwater on their Carribean routes and across the Rockies respectively.

With Boeing already committed to the 747 design, Douglas and Lockheed emerged as the contenders for this market. By 1968, when these designs were nearing completion, the consortium disagreed as to how they should award their orders. George Spater, who had succeeded C.R. Smith as CEO of American when Smith had become Lyndon Johnson's Commerce Secretary, was of the opinion that all five airlines should pick a single airframe and engine type so as to develop a "strong challenger" to Boeing for subsequent design competitions.

Due to design constraints (specifically dealing with the S-duct air intake for the #2 engine on the L1011), Lockheed was only able to offer the British manufactured Rolls Royce RB211 as an option on their aircraft. Douglas, in the meanwhile, offered either the RB211 or the General Electric GE CF6 (the civilian version of the military CF-5A). Spater favored the RB211, but pressure from C.R.Smith to "buy American" forced him to place an order for 25 DC-10s in February 1968, without specifying an engine choice. Lockheed's chairman, Dan Houghton, immediately began lobbying to offset the purchase of British engines through overseas sales of the L1011. On March 29, a British holding company called Air Holdings Ltd. placed orders for 30 L1011s, followed the same afternoon by TWA and Eastern. Delta completed the L1011 hattrick the next day.

The last holdout was United, whose president, George Keck, used this opportunity to negotiate the price of the DC10 down even further. David Lewis of Douglas not only slashed $0.5 million off of EACH airplane, but also arranged a financing deal in association with GE and Morgan Guaranty to enable United to acquire the CF-6 powered variant on sweetheart terms. American also signed up for this GE/Morgan financing deal and committed to the CF-6 to power their airframe.

As a result, American's 747 program was dead before they even took their first delivery. Nonetheless, they were committed to the 747, and received the first one on May 17 1970. I have enclosed a detailed history of all 16 747s delivered to American Airlines, as well as the 2 747-SPs acquired from TWA in 1986 when AA began operations to Japan from DFW.

N9661 (cn 46/msn 20100) was delivered 17 May 1970, converted to Freighter in 1974 and sold to Flying Tigers as N800FT, leased to Pan Am as N903PA, back to American from 1981 to 1984 as N9661 and retired for UPS as N674UP in December 1995.

N9662 (cn 57/msn 20101) was delivered 16 July 1970, converted to Freighter in 1974 and sold to Flying Tigers as N801FT, leased by Tigers to Lufthansa and El Al, leased back to American as N662AA in 1980, back to Tigers in 1981, back to American for 1982-84 as N9676 and finally to UPS as N676UP until retirement in December 1995.

N9663 (cn 59/msn 20102) was delivered 30 July 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1984, sold to Citibank and leased to National Airlines as N14943, leased to Cargolux in 1986 as LX-KCV and subleased to Iran Air, Air Afrique and Carribean Airways until 1988, sold to United and operated as N152UA until 1999 when she had the honor of operating the final 747-100 service for UAL.

N9664 (cn 65/msn 20103) was delivered 27 August 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1984, leased to Avianca, sold to Citibank and leased to Cargolux in 1986 as LX-NCV, sold to United in 1987 and operated as N154UA until 1998, then sold back to Boeing for use as an airborne flight testing facility until October 1999.

N9665 (cn 69/msn 20104) was delivered 18 September 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1984, sold to Dominicana as HI-472 through 1987, then sold to United and operated as N155UA until 1999.

N9666 (cn 77/msn 20105) was delivered 2 October 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1978, leased to Braniff through 1980, back to American till 1984, then sold to Citibank and leased to National as N14936, leased to Cargolux in 1986 as LX-LCV and subleased to Iran Air and Air Inter, then sold to United in 1987 and operated as N156UA until 1999.

N9667 (cn 79/msn 20106) was delivered 8 October 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1978, leased to Braniff through 1979, back to American till 1984, then sold to Citibank and leased to National as N14937 and then Air Afrique, leased to Cargolux in 1986 as LX-MCV and subleased to Iran Air and Air Inter, then sold to United in 1987 and operated as N157UA until 1999.

N9668 (cn 86/msn 20107) was delivered 29 October 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1974, then sold to NASA as N905NA, the original Space Shuttle carrier.

N9669 (cn 87/msn 20108) was delivered 27 November 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1984, then sold to Citibank and leased to National as N14939, leased to Highland Express in 1987 as G-HIHO, then Qantas in 1988 as VH-EEI and subleased to Air Pacific, then sold to Aer Lingus as EI-CAI and finally sold to Virgin Atlantic in 1990 as G-VMIA, the legendary "Spirit Of Sir Freddie".

N9670 (cn 90/msn 20109) was delivered 29 December 1970, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1984, converted to Combi and sold to Pan Am in 1984, then sold to UPS in 1992 and finally to Polar Air Cargo as N858FT.

N9671 (cn 115/msn 20323) was delivered 26 February 1971, converted to Freighter in 1975 and sold to Flying Tigers as N802FT, back to American from 1981 to 1984 and finally retired for UPS as N671UP in December 1995.

N9672 (cn 119/msn 20324) was delivered 16 April 1971, converted to Freighter in 1976, sold to UPS in 1984 as N672UP and retired in December 1995.

N9673 (cn 125/msn 20325) was delivered 20 April 1971, converted to Freighter in 1976, sold to UPS in 1984 as N673UP and retired in December 1995.

N9674 (cn 133/msn 20326) was delivered 12 May 1971, operated as passenger airliner for AA through 1983, sold to Pan Am, leased to Tower Air in 1987, returned to Pan Am until 1991, sold to UPS in 1992 and finally to Polar Air Cargo as N859UP.

N9675 (cn 136/msn 20390) was delivered 25 May 1971, leased to TMA in 1976 as OD-AGM, back to AA in 1977, sold to UPS in 1987 as N675UP until retirement in December 1995.

N9676 (cn 143/msn 20391) was delivered 25 June 1971, leased to TMA in 1975 as OD-AGC, sold to PanAm in 1977 as N901PA, sold to Flying Tigers in 1983 as N820FT, re-registered N629FE after the Tigers-FedEx merger, sold to UPS in 1990 as N677UP until retirement in June 1991.

N58202 (cn 439/msn 21962) was a 747-SP31 delivered to TWA on 21 March 1980, acquired by American in 1986 as N601AA until 1992, then operated by Kazakhstan Airlines as UN-001, Air Finance Ltd. as P4-AFE and finally Air Atlanta Icelandic as TF-ABN.

N57203 (cn 441/msn 21963) was a 747-SP31 delivered to TWA on 8 May 1980, acquired by American in 1986 as N602AA until 1992, now a VIP Transport for the UAE Government as A6-SMM.


"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Trident
Posts: 477
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RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:24 am

NASA acquired their first ex-AA 747-100 in 1976. It was used, still in basic AA colours, to carry the first Shuttle (Enterprise) aloft on the glide tests which were carried out in 1977. It was then used in 1979 to carry the first space-worthy Shuttle (Columbia) from the Rockwell factory in California to Cape Canaveral in preparation for the first space flight. It was during this ferry flight that the famous incident where the Shuttle lost hundreds of its tiles took place. For this, and other reasons, the first flight of the Shuttle was delayed until April 1981. Later, the 747 was repainted in NASA "house" colours of white roof with blue cheatline. It, and a second 747, have been in regular use ever since ferrrying the Shuttle fleet between Edwards AFB and Cape Canaveral when required.
 
BrowntailWhale
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 5:17 am

RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:44 am

B747-437B, I don't know what database you are using for your Ex-AA 747 numbers, but it is full of errors. 672, 673, 674, 675 and 676 are still in daily service with UPS, I should know as I fly them. BTW, 672 and 674 are scheduled to be scrapped right after peak.
 
lubcha132
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:37 am

RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:48 am

dalmd88- the other NASA 747 was Pan Am..thought you might like to know  Big grin
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
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RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:00 am

The 747 needs a long turnaround and the more the plane flies, the more money the airline makes and with a long turnaround, two 767 would eventually beat the 747.

UAL and Northwest use their 747 on mainly international routes, and a few domestic simply because they find (on domestic) that the time of the day is right and they are usually filled with passengers and also go to a hub. (UAL has a Denver-LAX/SFO 744 route that I believe goes to Asia/the Pacific.) Delta uses a MD-11 from MCO-ATL, then ATL-JFK, then I think it goes back or goes into Europe and on the MCO-ATL route, the planes are filled with no room to spare. The MD-11 is I think the second biggest plane (I do not know about Airbus).

Hope this give some info!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
fanofjets
Posts: 1978
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:15 am

The second NASA 747 is an ex-JAL -SR46, actually.

Does anyone know which of these planes starred in Airport '75? I believe it was one of the UPS freighters but am not sure.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
fanofjets
Posts: 1978
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:23 am

BTW, I thought I'd post this cool cabin view photo of the ex-AA NASA space shuttle carrier....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeremy Frew


The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
N751PR
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RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 12:05 pm

That and its sister a/c keeps on flying over us here in PMD occasionally. I remember going inside the ex.AA 747 in the Edwards AFB Air Show one time. The nose part is where the seats seem to only be located and behind that is just empty space. Just wish I had a photo of that.
"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
 
Trident
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2000 4:49 am

RE: American And The 747

Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:13 pm

The ex AA NASA 747 visited the Paris Air Show, carrying a Shuttle, in 1983. On the way back to the US, it visited Stansted airport. Thousands of enthusiasts flocked to Stansted to see the "combo" on the ground.
 
BrowntailWhale
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 5:17 am

RE: American And The 747

Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:18 am

N675UP was in Airport 75.
 
BWIrwy4
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:41 pm

RE: American And The 747

Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:32 am

Why is one of the shuttle carriers a 747 SR? Does that have the range to fly from Edwards to Cape Canaveral?

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