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skippy777
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VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:08 pm

I just heard a rumor that ILFC has taken 1 aircraft back from Vg/Delsey Airlines, because the lease wasn't paid. This aircraft should have been leased to MEA for a period of 3 months. VG/Delsey airlines is one aircraft short. So what are they doing to do on Sunday the 1st of September, IV 001 flies BRU-JFK-BOS.

I am a big fan of VG/Delsey Airlines but I think this could be the beginning of the end for VG/Delsey Airlines.

I also heard that Air Holland will be bankrupt by Tuesday.

A large advertising was in the news papers in Holland to ask support.

Can anybody tell me more about this.

 
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:41 pm

I also heard some rumours last days about a possible bankruptcy  Crying

So sad  Crying


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 Crying

 
pressclub
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:46 pm

Skippy,

You mention you are a journalist and that you have a presscard... Why do you write here that you are a 'fan' of a specific airline? As a journalist you have to stay neutral and you must always keep some distance. Don't you have a deontological code to follow??? It's a shame for our profession what you do.

Pressclub
'Journalist'
 
Turbotrent
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 5:49 pm

Indeed, if the rumor is true, again very sad weeks for Belgian aviation  Crying

Greetz,

Tom
Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge.
 
Turbotrent
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:01 pm

@ Pressclub : It's a shame that you attack Skippy on such a personal way. I think Skippy wrote that as a human, and not as a journalist. I don't think that this discussion will be published in a newspaper or magazine, so skippy is free to write here what he want, I think. Again, I am really disappointed in your reaction, pressclub.

Tom
Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge.
 
Flying Belgian
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:05 pm

...I would rather say at last.

Don't take me wrong, with all respect I used to keep for "ex sabéniens" but it took me quite long to understand how VG/Delsey could manage to survive so long with 30 pax on flights to U.S west coast (LAX). From what I've always heard this company has always grown with a part of black money.

Anything was clear from the begining on...
When you run an airlines there is always a moment when you have to analyse your financial income and outcome and the daily pax figures, otherwise you go bankrupt.

The saddest part is that ex Sabena people have still been dumped.

But it was a lost bid from the very begining on.


Regards.


F.B

Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
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skippy777
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:43 pm

@turbotrent thanks.

@pressclub, I am writing this indeed as a human person, I have no intentions to publish this story. Everybody knows that I did some work for VG Airlines.
I know how hard that they are still working, so please give them some credits.

Our are you that kind of Journalist that hopes that no airline will survive.
Maybe you are a big fan of SN Brussel Airlines and did you work for Sabena.
Maybe you hope that only SN will survive.

Please think first before you criticize me.
 
pressclub
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:44 pm

Tom,

Sorry but when you are a journalist, you are always a journalist ... Not only in your publications. The Belgian code is very clear and I respect it.

What i can say about Delsey/VG. I have heard that one of the Air holland Aircraft - i think the B 757- was leased from a Japanese bank via Tony Gram and Delsey/VG. So if it goes wrong with Air Holland, Gram and Delsey/VG have a B 757 they don't need at all.

This whole story is so stupid. Tony Gram took over Air Holland after a discussion that only lasted 4 hrs. So he didn't look into the financial books at all... So hed din't even know the exact debt rate of Air Holland.

He didn't know that the dutch charter business is so difficult with so many players involved (Martinair, Dutchbird, Transavia, Air Holland...)...












 
pressclub
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:56 pm

Skippy,

How can you be a journalist and 'do some work for an airline'???? How can you stay independent by doing this?

I give credits to everybody. I really hope we have a nice aviation business in our country, only when this exists I can do my job. I didn't work for SN BA/Sabena... I only work for my editor, he is the only one who pays me.

As a human being I hope that my many many friends in this industry are happy.

Am I a fan of SN Brussels? I can only say you this. I was the first to write in my newspaper that the marketingdirector was fired, the chief pilot was fired, that the COO was fired and that the occup rate is lower than expected... Do you really think that ' a fan' writes this? So I think I am really independent in my work.

Believe me, in the long term staying neutral is the only sustainable approach for a journalist. My readers deserve it, they pay the price of the newspaper to get unbiassed and correct news. I know that you travelled with Delsey for free to the US but please don't let your mind be influenced by this.

But let's stop this discussion and write about Delsey and Air Holland!  Smile




 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:46 pm

As I have already said on here some days ago, a reliable source within ILFC told me that Delsey/VG are in default on their lease payments for the A330s. They have until the end of the month (ie today, 31 August) to cure the default otherwise aircraft will be reposessed. How many aircraft are affected he wouldn't say, but this ties in with Skippy's report.

Their operation JFK-BOS is crazy. Either the aircraft will have a triangular routing - BRU-JFK-BOS-BRU - or a round-trip routing BRU-JFK-BOS-JFK-BRU. If the former, then where will the aircraft be turned around? If BOS, this means that pax originating in JFK for BRU will have to stay on board the aircraft whilst it is cleaned etc; and if in JFK then the pax from BRU for BOS will have to stay on board in JFK whilst the cleaning and catering is carried out. Don't forget VG will not have traffic rights between JFK and BOS.

If the latter, then considering their loads are so poor, they would be better off just flying pax on the Delta Shuttle between BOS and JFK.

Either way, pax will be inconvenienced and they will be more likely to fly with a professional airline rather than these cowboys ...  Insane  Yeah sure
 
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:49 pm

If the latter, then considering their loads are so poor, they would be better off just flying pax on the Delta Shuttle between BOS and JFK.

The fact that this doesn't happen, is it because DL does not thrust the financial situation of VG? I mean, that they are afraid that they will not get the money of the pax that VG puts on their flights?

Regards,
Frederic

 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:58 pm

Frederic, I suspect this is probably the case. Remember Freddy saying with much fanfare that Delta would be VG's 'partners'?

Does anyone know whether the airports, fuel and catering companies have put Delsey (and Air Holland) on a 'cash only' basis yet? If so, that usually indicates an airline about to go under.
 
manni
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:14 pm

These rumours about a possible bankruptcy for VG seem to live only on A.net.
I just got back from the airport, and yesterday, and the day before yesterday,... and never heard anything about it.

If there is nothing to write about, dont make up something but just dont write. By doing so, you're losing your credibility.
Anyway, tomorrow I'll ask a few people of the companies who do handling, catering, fueling etc. if they heard anything about it, or if there is indeed a 'cash only' rule for VG.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
airbuspilot
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:20 pm

A friend of mine is a captain B757 at Air Holland and they are allready on a cash alone bases at certain airports. He flies around with an enveloppe containing 10000USD just in case of!

Not very funny, I can tell you that much.......
 
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skippy777
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:36 pm

@pressclub

VG/Delsey airlines is not in my voting list for best airline so I stay independent even if Tony Gram would say please. No independent is my keyword for my researches. I have proved that in the past with KLM as well.

But lets discuss if VG/Delsey will go bankrupt.

 
pressclub
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:40 pm

But why you say that you are a journalist and that you work for an airline AT THE SAME TIME??? This is a big contradiction. A journalist can't work for an airline. I sincerely hope you are not a guy who approaches airlines and tell them that he is a journalist in order to get free tickets... And please, explain me why you mention that you are journalist and at the same time you work for an airline quality website... May I ask you for which publications that you work?


 
airbuspilot
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:10 pm

Hi Pressclub,

Just have a look at http://www.travelquality.com

He has something to do with that website......

Greetz
 
varig md-11
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:18 pm

SAS23

INS and U.S. CUSTOMS regulations state that the port of entry concerning pax coming from abroad is the 1st airport a plane lands at

that means if the flight makes BRU-JFK-BOS for example, pax can't stay in the plane at JFK but clear INS and CUSTOMS instead!! and re-enter the same plane  Nuts
to take a JFK-BOS shuttle would be a simpler choice and the A332 would ferry to BOS
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:26 pm

Varig md-11 - thanks for that. Clearly, the best (and most convenient for the pax) solution would be for VG to operate just to JFK and provide transport JFK-BOS-JFK for any pax travelling between BRU and BOS.

That they have not done this speaks volumes about the quality of their management!  Insane
 
KENNY
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 12:34 am

Well, It would be very sad for Belgian Aviation to see another airline go bankrupt.

But on the other hand, I believed in SN Brussels Airlines & Sobelair as seperate airlines, but never believed in the VG/Delsey Airlines. Sabena cancelled several transatlantic flights because they didn't get money on it, so why would VG get money on it?
There are simply to much airlines that go to America on such a small distance: BA (UK), KLM (Netherlands), AF (France) and Lufthansa (Germany). Then also yet another from Belgium? No, that wouldn't be a good idea, it would be a better idea to join forces with all the airlines that fly to America. For example: all flights start at Heatthrow, and the passengers from Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, France,... will be flown first to Heatthrow, there an aircraft of one of the participating airlines should be used to travel to America. Then you can make money (in my idea).

I surely hope they'll survive!

Greetz,
Kenny
 
Flying Belgian
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:26 am

I don't think those rumours are unfounded at all.

If VG flies BRU-JFK-BOS, it clearly means they have one aircraft less.

I wonder which pax will be stupid enough to fly them with such routing !!! The flight takes already 45 mins longer than with Delta.


FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
Boeing777/747
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:35 am

Yes, I heard the rumours too. But let's wait and see what will happen. Perhaps Delsey Airlines' owner Gram is going to let Air holland bankrupted. Than Gram will buy the stock of aircraft and the capable personnel, throwing out the Air Holland mis-managers and than he will perhaps re-colour the aircraft, including it's own 2 remaining VG Airlines A332's into Delsey Airlines livery.

Advantages:
He doesn't have to take back his 3rd VG A332
He can add smaller aircraft to his fleet (B752's)
He operates on 2 markets with one brand: Belgium and Holland
He will get rid of uncapable managers

Smart guy this Mr. Gram in case this scenario becomes true!!!!!!!!

To Pressclub: Give me a break. I'm a journalist and I'm a fan of Delsey Airlines too. Sorry to have my personal opinion. I'm off duty now: I'm not the holy spirit neither Skippy777 is.
 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:53 am

Boeing777/747, I have already said on the other thread you started about this that your scenario is a complete non-starter.

1) Delsey/VG has even worse management than Air Holland

2) Air Holland does not own any of its aircraft.

3) Multiple aircraft types in a small fleet are a bad idea ... especially when one of those types (the 767) does the same job as another type (the A330). From a commonality viewpoint, the 757/767 fleet makes more sense.

4) The Benelux market is effectively one already as the distances are so short, especially with high speed rail links such as the Thalys.

5) If he wanted to rename Air Holland as Delsey then he could do so now, without waiting for it to go must ... apparently, he owns 100% of the shares.

However, this presents him with a problem - under EU law, airlines operating to destinations outside the EU must be 51% owned by nantionals of the country of registration of the airline. No problem for the likes of Ryanair which only operate within the EU; but a major problem for Air Holland - especially with their long haul operations. Is Tony Gram Belgian - in which case Air Holland will lose its rights; or Dutch - in which case it is Delsey that will lose them?
 
Sabena 690
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 2:06 am

It seems that there are lot's of aviation journalists in Holland  Big grin

@Boeing777/747:

I heard a rumour that Delsey wants to use a B752 of Air Holland on the BRU-BOS flight, and this rumour passes in the scenario you wrote there!

You were talking about big news coming of Delsey Airlines, do you know what this news is going about?

Regards,
Frederic

 
Boeing777/747
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Sabena 690

Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:33 am

Dear Frederic,

Believe me I really do not have a clue yet. I'm just standing at the side line, we all have to wait and see. Unfortunately the future for Air Holland is not bright and for Delsey the situation is, to my opinion, uncertain. I think that Delsey is working on a revised strategy by operating smaller aircraft (B752's of Air Holland) and adding new profitable routes operated by A332 and B763.

Might be that I'm wrong at the end and that things are going totally different than I expected...
 
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RE: Sabena 690

Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:39 am

and adding new profitable routes operated by A332 and B763.

So two different long haul planes?? And this is a strategy? I think that it is logical that you fly or A332 or B763, but both?

Regards,
Frederic
 
Boeing777/747
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Air Holland Is Over. Delsey Has Been Cheated...

Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:14 pm

Sorry folks, only in Dutch...for now. It's over with Air Holland.

Reizen van 15.000 toeristen omgegooid
Noodplan Air Holland
vakanties
Hotelplan en OAD beëindigen contracten    
 
door Arnold Burlage SCHIPHOL - Voor meer dan 15.000 vakantiegangers wordt een noodplan gemaakt om hun vakanties te redden nu bankroet dreigt voor de in financiële problemen geraakte chartermaatschappij Air Holland.



Een bankroet dreigt voor chartermaatschappij Air Holland. (Foto: ANP)
OAD Reizen en ook Hotelplan hebben als eerste reisorganisaties dit weekeinde voor hun passagiers de stekkers uit de maatschappij getrokken. Zij vertegenwoordigen meer dan de helft van de Nederlandse passagiers van Air Holland.

"De belangen voor onze passagiers staan bij die beslissing voorop. We hebben de contracten met Air Holland met onmiddellijke ingang beëindigd. Het is spijtig. Maar we mogen onze passagiers aan geen enkel risico blootstellen", aldus Geert Jan Boven, algemeen directeur van de OAD.

Het lot van Air Holland, dat nog drie gehuurde Boeings in de lucht heeft, lijkt daarmee bezegeld.

OAD Reizen heeft gisteren direct een team van 20-30 medewerkers op de been gebracht om met noodscenario's de geboekte vakanties veilig te stellen. Het overgrote deel van de passagiers werd op vluchten van Martinair en Transavia omgeboekt.

Voor een aantal vluchten wordt uitgeweken naar Engelse, Duitse of Belgische chartermaatschappijen.

Een aantal passagiers, dat momenteel met vakantie in Turkije is, kan door de genomen beslissingen pas een dag later dan gepland aan de thuisreis beginnen. De kosten worden door de reisorganisaties betaald.

Voor een beperkt deel van de geboekte vakanties die nog moeten beginnen, betekenen de wijzigingen een andere vertrekdag. Voor een enkeling moet de vakantie met een dag worden ingekort. "We betalen in die gevallen een evenredig deel van de reissom terug", aldus de OAD-directie.

De andere reisorganisatie, waarvan de passagiers met onder meer Air Holland vliegen, zoals Q International, Komfort Tours en enkele andere kleinere reisbedrijven, moeten bij een faillissement hun passagiers ook bij andere maatschappijen zien onder te brengen nu het zomerseizoen nog in volle gang is.

"De komende dagen zijn nu inderdaad cruciaal", aldus Karl Runge, de nieuwe algemeen directeur van Air Holland, die na zijn benoeming enkele weken geleden in een chaos bleek terecht te komen.

Het vorige management van Air Holland en ook eigenaar Cees van Dormaël wordt financieel wanbeheer verweten.

Het Europese vluchtleidingscentrum Eurocontrol vroeg vorige week het faillissement aan van Air Holland, omdat de schuld aan heffingen voor gegeven verkeersleiding tot boven de 1,7 miljoen euro was opgelopen. De schuld van de chartermaatschappij blijkt totaal inmiddels miljoenen euro's hoger te zijn. Ook OAD liep een strop op van honderdduizenden euro's.

De faillissementsaanvraag van Eurocontrol wordt op 10 september behandeld door de rechtbank in Haarlem. Maar de laatste ontwikkelingen lijken de ondergang van Air Holland nu dichterbij te hebben gebracht.

Luchtvaartjurist mr. Frans Vreede van advocatenkantoor Boekel De Nerée, die de faillissementsaanvraag heeft ingediend, heeft vastgesteld, dat sinds 1998 geen balans meer is gedeponeerd. Dat is wettelijk verplicht.

Ook de onzekerheid voor de ruim 200 medewerkers, die de laatste maanden herhaaldelijk op hun loon moesten wachten, is enorm groot.

De Belgische multimiljonair en investeerder Tony Gram, wiens luchtvaartmaatschappij VG Airlines vluchten uitvoerde voor Air Holland, kwam in ruil voor zijn miljoenen een vordering op de maatschappijaandelen van Air Holland overeen. Maar daarvan heeft hij nog niets gezien, zegt zijn rechterhand Freddy van Gaever, directeur en grondlegger van VG Airlines

"We hebben alles gedaan om een financiële ramp met Air Holland te voorkomen. De afgelopen weken zijn zo middenin het hoogseizoen de vakanties van duizenden Nederlanders gered, maar met de miljoenen die onze aandeelhouder Tony Gram daarin stak, zijn we bedrogen uitgekomen. We hebben nog geen cent teruggezien. Op kantoor blijkt ook vrijwel geen boekhouding te zijn bijgehouden", aldus Freddy van Gaever.

De Nederlandse overheid is volgens de Belgische luchtvaarttycoon aansprakelijk voor alle ellende. Van Gaever: "Wat nu gebeurt verwacht je in een bananenrepubliek, niet in Nederland. We zijn ervan uitgegaan dat op de boeken en de maatschappij deugdelijke controles worden gehouden door fiscus en luchtvaartdienst. Maar daar blijkt nu niets van waar. Wij als geldschieters en bij een faillissement ook de passagiers zijn daarvan de dupe."
 
Leo
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:50 pm

The famous Belgian aviation pioneer Mr. Freddy van Gaever now holds the Dutch Government responsible for mismanagement at Air Holland !!!!

....................HAHAHAHHAHA!!

Fact is that: VG airlines' Mr. Gram took hold of Air Holland pretty well overnight, when nobody else would even look at Air Holland. When you take control of a basket case, don't blame somebody else when things go wrong.

Do your home work first please, Mr. van Gaever.

 
Sabena 690
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RE: Air Holland Is Over. Delsey Has Been Cheated...

Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:01 pm

Any official confirmation yet? Reactions of HLN?

What are the consequences for Gramm and Delsey Airlines?

Regards,
Frederic
 
1stspotter
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:09 pm

Hi,
The english translation of the upcoming Air Holland bankruptcy can be found at the link below.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/915339/

regards,
Marcel
 
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skippy777
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:14 pm

@marcel, your translation in English of the Air Holland story

Lots of articles in the dutch media about the to be expected soon bankruptcy of Air Holland.

This weekend two large tour operators cancelled their contracts with Air Holland. The two touroperators had about half of all the passengers flown by Air Holland. The passenger are now flown by other Dutch carriers as well as some foreign airlines.

Eurocontrol recently requested bankruptcy of Air Holland. The debt of the airline to the air traffic control centre was over 1.7 million Euro. The total debt of the airline is millions of Euro's higher than that. OAD, a Dutch tour operator still needs a couple of hundredthousand dollars.

There is a financial mess at the bookkeeping of Air Holland.

Belgium multimiljonair and investor Tony Gram, who's airline VG Airlines operated for Air Holland agreed to claim shares for the millions of euro's he still gets from Air Holland. Till now he did not see any money.

"We did all the prevent a financial disaster of Air Holland. In the middle of the highseason holidays of thousands of dutch people are saved, but the millions of Euro's Tony Gram invested are gone. The office of Air Holland did not seem to do any bookkeeping", according to Freddy van Gaever.

The Dutch government is according to the Belgium aviationtycoon resposible for all the missery. Van Gaever: "What is happening now you expect to see in a banana republic, not in the Netherlands. We thought that the bookkeeping and the airline were closely checked by the Treasury and the aviation administration. But this is false. We as a moneylender and in case of a bankruptcy also the passenger are left to face the music (are being the victim)

Source:http://krant.telegraaf.nl/krant/vandaag/teksten/bin.holland.air.passagiers.html

 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:46 pm

It seems like half the people on A.net could run an airline better than those clowns Gram and van Gaever!

I am frankly amazed that Gram has made as much money has he has done if the way that he runs Delsey and his other companies is the same as the way that he runs the airlines.

Anyone - anyone - investing in or buying outright a company does their due diligence first. You don't believe what you are told by its management ... especially when that management has already conned you once by getting you to lease them an aircraft without the ability to pay for it!  Insane

I understand that the deal to take over Air Holland was agreed in just four hours ... if so, then they deserve to lose every cent. Typical van Gaever, blaming everyone apart from the real culprit ... himself!  Yeah sure
 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:51 pm

Boeing777/747: the article states that bankruptcy is expected now that Air Holland has lost two major customers. You should not translate that by writing "it is over now". Chances are high that it will be over soon, but right now, Air Holland is still flying. Stick to the facts please!
 
Boeing777/747
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DutchDeltaDude

Mon Sep 02, 2002 8:16 pm

You're right but believe me it will be over very soon, open you eyes. The company will vanish or might be re-branded as Delsey Airlines. The name and reputation of Air Holland is C-R-I-P-P-L-E-D for at least the next coming 10 years.
 
Established02
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:51 pm

> The company (Air Holland) will vanish or might be re-branded as Delsey Airlines.

The VG/Delsey colour scheme contains a Belgian flag in the tail logo and on the winglets.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Olivier Deuson



I would believe that the Belgian aspect in the company logo may hinder the more international aspirations of Delsey. Especially IF Air Holland would continue its Dutch operations under the new name Delsey, then I guess the Belgian flag should be removed from the Delsey colour scheme. Perhaps I'm wrong and the Dutch public wouldn't bother at all about this little Belgian flag. But then again, the Dutch are much more nationalistic than the Belgians, so I may presume that definitely they would prefer a Delsey livery with a Dutch flag (rather than the Belgian one) or the plane painted all in orange instead of dark grey.

Established02
 
airbuspilot
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:25 am

Latest news from VG airlines:

* New York Night stop is canceled for the crews. Crews will fly one leg and immediately return together with the airplane.

*Boston has been cancelled until further notice. If in the future Boston will be added again it will be a flight Brussels-New-York-Boston which will certainly pose some problems as discussed here before.

*Beirut Night Stop has been added from this week on. First flight left today and the crew returns on Friday. It is possible that they will do some local flights as well!!

rumor goes that things do not run that smoothly between Freddy Van gaever and Tony Gramm. VG Accuses Gramm of having abused his honesty and goodwill to start up an airline. He feels like Gramm has abused his financial means in order to achieve some personal goals.....

To be continued....
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:55 am

Sorry, apparently someone has been over enthousiastic here...

Flight will be New-York/Boston with a nightstop in Boston......

Sorry about that one!
 
Sabena 690
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:33 am

Wow, this is breaking news, Airbuspilot! Thanks for it!

Beirut! Former low yield destination of Sabena.

Things are moving in their strategy apparently.

And who will be on the Beirut flights? Who knows at the moment that they fly to Beirut? Almost no-one!

So again loads of 0 pax, 5 pax, untill some people will know the existence of the flight.

Pff, what a management...

Regards,
Frederic
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:33 am

Van Gaever: "What is happening now you expect to see in a banana republic, not in the Netherlands. We thought that the bookkeeping and the airline were closely checked by the Treasury and the aviation administration

Wasn't that Tony's job when he took over Air Holland? Fogive if I'm wrong but I thought that Tony Gram was a venture capitalist and they do check the books before investing in a venture. Didn't Tony Gram really don't know that things at Air Holland were as bad as they are or did VG persuade Tony into this venture?

Moreover, doesn't VG realises that Air Holland is a very young new airline, like his and that it's a BV which means that they only have limited filing restrictions. Probably they do realise all these things but don't want to acknowledge they amde a very big mistake.

Anyway, it will probably be over very quickly for the brand name Air Holland. As already pointed out 3 bankruptcies in a short period doesn't actually look good on their track record. Moreover as Dutchbird is doing very good nowadays and has already taken over Air Holland's position as the third (and best) charter airline in The Netherlands.

Perhaps I'm wrong and the Dutch public wouldn't bother at all about this little Belgian flag. But then again, the Dutch are much more nationalistic than the Belgians, so I may presume that definitely they would prefer a Delsey livery with a Dutch flag (rather than the Belgian one) or the plane painted all in orange instead of dark grey.

Good joke. Dutch being nationalistic. The Dutch don't care which flag you put on. Or is EZY succesful in The Netherlands because they have orange aircraft?

To DutchDeltaDude, allthough I do like Air Holland you can't deny that during Air Holland I, Air Holland II and now during Air Holland III, the management always managed to make such a mess of the airline that they are again on the verge of bankruptcy. Maybe they should look at Dutchbird who seems to be doing very good at this moment (good management, realistic growth).

BTW all Air Holland flights of September 3rd are cancelled.

Regards
Laurens
 
User avatar
skippy777
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2001 6:01 pm

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:45 am

I just had news, that today an article has been placed in a Belgium newspaper, that Tony Gram is saying goodbye to Freddy. Tony is taking over Delsey airlines ( he already had the majority of shares ) I also had confirmed that the 00-SFR is on a short time wet lease been given to MEA. The plane did a flight BEY-LHR-BEY today and tomorrow it will be doing BEY-CDG-BEY.

The contract should be finished in a few days time, but Delsey needed the cash very badly and MEA makes sure that the money is on the bank the same day.

Also the Cabin Staff ( only the cabin Staff ) had to work 3 days without pay, due to the low performance of the crew. If this got something to do with the paxload is not sure.

@established02

I have seen the new livery of Delsey airlines already. Four designs and they look great. No Belgium flag on three of them and they also look great on a 757 and 767 ( don't tell anybody )
 
Established02
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 4:30 am

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:09 am

> I have seen the new livery of Delsey airlines already.
> Four designs and they look great.
> No Belgium flag on three of them
> don't tell anybody

All right Skippy777, I won't tell anybody. It remains a secret between you and me.  Big grin

Established02
 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 4:14 am

I thought Tony Gram already owned 100% of the shares of Delsey?

No wonder he wants to get rid of van Gaever, but he also needs to make sure that he gets in proper, professional managers replacing the entire team of idiots that he has at the moment.

However, with time running out on all fronts I don't think that Delsey has any future. It's reputation has been destroyed, and it hasn't built up any cash reserves over the peak summer season to tide it over the lean winter period.

Any bets on how many days it will last?
 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 5:08 am

Well, the answer for Air Holland is 8 days... they have until the 10th to get themselves refinanced and all outstanding debts paid or renegotiated. Failing that, September 11 will be another disastrous day for their employees, shareholders and creditors...  Sad
 
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skippy777
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Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2001 6:01 pm

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 6:29 pm

yes on the 11th of september (another black 11th of september) air Holland will be over. and no Tony didn't own 100% of the shares from VG Airlines, but more than 50%.
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:04 pm

Oops, I saw a mistake I made.

Forget my above posting, I thought that Airbuspilot meant flights from Brussels to Beirut, but of course, he means the MEA flights from Beirut to CDH and LHR.

Today, I read that Gramm paid for 100% of the shares, but that he didn't get them.

Regards,
Frederic
 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:56 pm

Frederic, that's what I heard as well - which was what triggered my post on another thread where I pointed out that if 50% or more of the shares were held by Gram as a Belgian national, Air Holland would lose its rights to fly to non EU destinations.

However, I am not sure whether the reason he didn't get the shares he paid for (or rather, didn't pursue the bill for the charter of the A330) was due to that ... or whether the Air Holland management scammed him again!  Big grin  Insane
 
Established02
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 4:30 am

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:07 pm

> if 50% or more of the shares were held by Gram as a Belgian national,
> Air Holland would lose its rights to fly to non EU destinations

I guess we're talking here about Mr Gram's company being registered in Belgium, rather than Mr Gram's Belgian citizenship. Therefore, even if Mr Gram were Dutch, this problem with the traffic rights would remain as long as Delsey (or whatever financing vehicle that he used) is registered in Belgium.
 
Leo
Posts: 308
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RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:18 pm

The Air Holland B757's were parked in a far, dim and dark corner of Schiphol this morning. Is this the end..
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................. or are we going to see a fool start with Air Holland 4.


 
Guest

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:07 pm

I hear that Delsey/Tony Gram have refused to invest another €uro in Air Holland ... and that all of Air Holland's suppliers have put them on a "cash in advance" basis.

I guess it's all over there, then ... how much longer before Delsey goes the same way?

Established02 - no, I'm talking about the EU regulation regarding ownership of airlines which state that an airline operating intra-EU flights can be majority owned (ie 50.1%) and controlled by nationals of any EU country; but airlines which operate outside the UE must be majority owned and controlled by nationals of the country issuing the AOC.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: VG/Delsey Airlines Nearly Bankrupt?

Wed Sep 04, 2002 2:03 am

No Leo, Air Holland will fly to IST on the 4th (and do the regular AMS-CDG-JIB-CDG-AMS flight for Daalo) I wonder if HLN will do the Fortaleze flight on Friday. If not this would mean Q-international is also gone to another airline.

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