steman
Posts: 1406
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:32 pm

Hello,
a good friend of mine who works for Alitalia and who has a lot of links with insiders in the Company, recently told me that KLM is going to join the SkyTeam alliance.
I was simply incredulous and I said that such an agreement wouldn't work because of many reasons: KLM's American partner Northwest and Continental would have a lot of problems in joining forces with Delta. Not to mention all the antitrust issues that this would cause.
KLM's hub would go in conflict with CDG and MXP.

But then I have read in this site that NW/CO and DL have signed a codeshare agreement and that this may lead to the entrance of the former in the Skyteam alliance.

So guys,
what is going to happen?
Didn't SkyTeam say that they wanted to keep the alliance small in terms of members in order to focus on the customer?

How would the aviation panorama change in Europe?
I don't know why but I feel that having KLM in the alliance wouldn't be good for Alitalia.

Any opinions?

Ciao

Stefano
 
keesje
Posts: 8867
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 8:43 pm

I think Delta decided to join the succesfull NWA-CO alliance regardless of Skyteam.

I think it is wise to look at operational strenght and bank accounts of the airlines involved before concluding who is in the driver seat in this process ......

That is what counts these days !
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:06 pm

I think it is wise to look at operational strenght and bank accounts of the airlines involved before concluding who is in the driver seat in this process ......

So Keesje, you conclude with no hesitation that Air France is in the driver seat?  Smile


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:02 am

Alain, AF is not involved in the domestic tie up of DL with NW/CO. Overtime the NW/CO alliance will possibly move into Skyteam. KL is having their own talks with AF at this time. The international alliance part of the deal isn't set in stone... it won't happen unless DL/NW/CO can get their plan through the US Gov't.

It's a shame that the creators and pioneers of the alliance as we know it today have to merge their work into the brand of a "green" alliance.


AZJ
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:38 am

I think the main reason KL is interested in joining the SkyTeam alliance is that DL, NW, and CO are actively trying to integrate their operations back in the States. If all is successful, we'll see all three Wings Alliance airlines in SkyTeam.

Aaron G.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:18 am

Well, good you didn't forget about HV  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

CO is not part of Wings, they only have some codeshares with them...

KLM has been talking about partnerships with European airlines for a decade or so.
All of those talks have always come to nothing at all because of KLM's attitude of superiority (like wanting equal powers in an alliance with an airline 10 times their size). Unless this time they are going to go into the negotiations with an open attitude and accept that they're the junior partner, this partnership with AF too will fail.
I wish I were flying
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 4:39 am

OK - so there is no such thing as WINGS. This was a brand coined by the media to characterize the NW/KL alliance. NW/KL have many partners that allow each other to access all parts of the world. The deal between NW/CO/DL is strictly in the states first... but it could lead to NW/KL/CO joining skyteam.


AZJ
 
keesje
Posts: 8867
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:13 pm

So Keesje, you conclude with no hesitation that Air France is in the driver seat?

Probably. That is if AF doesn't have to pay back the MASSIVE $ 5 Billion state aid they got in the last 12 years to stay alive ....

AF now tries removing it from the history books now but it is still in the court ...

An airline 10 times as big as KLM doesn't exist yet. KLM ranks 10 in the RPK world I think. Big airline in a small country ...

Bank accounts of NWA, KLM rank much higher making them play ball at this moment.

They will take care funds don't float into black holes like AF, Korean, Alitalia and Aeroflot !
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

http://library.northernlight.com/MM20000803980000152.html?cb=0&sc=0#doc
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:00 pm

From sublime to ridiculous, there is only one step.
Napoléon


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
Air Transport Business
 
keesje
Posts: 8867
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 10:18 pm

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."

Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Tue Sep 03, 2002 10:30 pm

I don't think either the US Justice Department or the European Commission will permit all these airlines to coordinate schedules, pricing, and share revenue, frequent flyer programs, etc....so easily. After all, you are talking about the third, fourth, and fifth largest US carriers (DL, NW, and CO), Europe's second largest airline (AF), along with two other large European carriers (KL and AZ, which incidentally, have had an acrimonious, and short-lived attempt at an alliance in 1998-9), and a dominance in the Latin America market, thanks to Aeromexico and Continental's route maps in the region, and a considerable trans-pacific presence (NW, CO, KAL).

The combination of Wings and SkyTeam would dwarf OneWorld and Star by a landslide but it could also rewrite the way airlines do business as competitors and partners.

ContinentalEWR
 
AFa340-300E
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:09 am

Science without consciousness is only ruin of the soul.
François Rabelais.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
Air Transport Business
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: KLM-NW-CO In SkyTeam?

Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am

I personally would not yet push aside the idea of KLM/COA/NWA joining SkyTeam or at least either KLM and one of the 2 aforementioned US carriers. It would take a lot of convincing for the US Justice Dep't or the EC but it's not entirely out of the question. The partnership between DL/CO/NW is just one more step closer, in my opinion.

-Chris
Bonjour Chef!

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