Bizjets
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Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:23 am

I have been thinking about this for a while.

With relatively low sales and only 2 customers (that I know of), the Boeing 767-400 has to be considered more or less a failure. While I think it is a very nice looking aircraft with great characteristics, the market just does not seem to want them. Will Boeing end the 767-400 program any time soon or do they have any planes for it?

Thanks for the info in advance.

BizJets  Smile


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kjet12
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:50 am

I don't think it will end anytime soon. If history serves me correctly, many airplanes have had a slow start. The 757-300, A330, and 717 to name a few. But the orders for those planes has gone up. I think Boeing is going to wait a while to see if it picks up a bit.

Kris
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STT757
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:53 am

There's also the possibility of large sales to the USAF to replace their ageing AWACS etc.
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jessman
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:55 am

The caption indicates that it goes to EWR Big grin
 
artsyman
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:59 am

Let's see, Probably the currently two best performing airlines in america are both happily using them, so I don't see there being too much of a problem. No airplane is going to fit into every airlines fleet plan. This airplane works for Delta and Continental, but at the moment, not for the others. The same as the 747 works for many airlines, but not a lot of the US carriers. In time, more will order this plane. As mentioned in previous posts, the development costs for this plane were very low, so almost any orders are a profit.

Many people say that the A330 is a stronger airplane in this dept, this may well be true, but Delta and Continental are not going to order airbus. Most airlines feel that the 737ng aircraft is better performing than the airbus that jetblue uses, but you are not going to see jetblue ordering from Boeing. It is just the way it works

Jeremy
 
jhooper
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:00 pm

If I understand correctly, the 767-400 had relatively low R&D costs since they already had the basic framework for the plane, so it wasn't as costly to develop as say the 747 or 777. So even with few sales, I wouldn't consider the project a failure.
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hkgspotter1
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:24 pm

A friend of mine flew on a Delta 764 a few weeks ago in the US and thought it was horrible (in terms of seating and space). I should mention this guy's an aviation nut and has flown on many, many types. In fact he loves planes so much he started his own model plane company, its one of the biggest in the business !!
 
artsyman
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:29 pm

A friend of mine flew on a Delta 764 a few weeks ago in the US and thought it was horrible

I have flown on more or less every airbus and boeing plane, and found it to be an excellent plane, I had many reviews on here that have said more or less the same as me.

Jeremy
 
jhooper
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:43 pm

The first class seats are good.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 5:43 pm

Coach in any DL plane is horrible. No fault of the 764. I'ver heard CO's are quite nice actually.

-Sean
 
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yyz717
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:00 pm

AA, UA, JL, ANA are all prime candidates for the 764...once the economy picks up and their financials improve.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L-188
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:03 pm

That is what happens when you try to introduce a new type right before the economy heads south.
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varig md-11
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:10 pm

Yyz717

correct me if I'm wrong but All Nippon ordered recently (and oddly?) new 767-300 instead of 400...
maybe their 300 fleet being large they didn't want to introduce a new type
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:26 pm

If the 767-400 had better range then maybe sales would be higher and this point in its existence. The airlines that have an almost all Boeing fleet like AA, would have a much cheaper time using the 767-400 instead of going to the A330. Just give it time, the 757 never caught on until later in its existence, and there are just a few of the flying around.
 
dvk
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:09 pm

I believe the 764 was developed at the request of Delta and Continental. Boeing reopened the 762 production line at Continental's request, so they are clearly willing to do things that are not outrageously expensive to accommodate good customers. From that standpoint, the 764 is not a failure.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
ContinentalFan
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:55 pm

Dvk,

I think there isn't a 762 specific production line. I think it's all one production line for all 767s, only a matter of whether you want a small, medium or large 767. You will probably be able to order any size as long as the line stays open, even if nobody really orders 762s anymore. I would imagine that it wasn't too expensive to retrofit the new interior into the 762, either.

Mike.
 
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:28 am

Most commentary on the 767-400's characteristics (flying, reliability, etc.) have been very favourable. On the one hand, it is probably hurting in the market vis-a-vis the A330-200 which was designed with higher weights for longer range ops, but then on the other hand DL isn't hauling around a lot of dead weight from ATL to Florida, for example. CO is using them transatlantic from EWR and to Latin America so I suppose they're getting their money's worth.
The DL configuration is for high-density leisure routes, as an L-1011 replacement. Quite frankly, I think the First class section on DL is herded together, definitely a comedown from the Tristar, but economy is probably equal or better than its predecessor. CO has 5-across in the front cabin and from the pics is a helluva lot more civilized.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:53 am

You have a point Varig MD-11, but it is easy for any 763 customer to step up to the 764 if market conditions warrant.

Regards
Neil
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:14 am



Upon reading the stats on the 767-400 it is the ideal aircraft for small airliners who operate long haul routes that dont have avarge loads of 300+ passengers. The problem however is that the 767-400 is to expensive for airlines like those mentioned above to buy and although it is a good concept i think that Boeing should try to recapture the 767/A330 size market with a 777 derivative. Thus after 20 years the NG 767s should have commonality with the triple 7.
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artsyman
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 3:06 am

I believe that the A330 was only listed as being a stronger aircraft than the 764 due to its ability to fly further and carry more pax. It is possible that if CO /DL don't carry much cargo on the routes, and I believe don't have the loads to justify the extra capacity. If you don't need the extra seats or the extra range then what is the point of having it ? For non-airbus customers, you end up with no fleet commonality, needing to train mechanics, pilots, fa's etc etc

Jeremy
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 3:34 am

Unfortunately, I think the cancellation of the 764ERX sealed the success of the A330-200 and the fate of the B767-400, and handed this market segment to Airbus. Since it's launch the 767-400 has had no customers, and the likes ILFC and Kenya Airways have cancelled. Whatever the economic climate, an aircraft that has a negative net sales total in its first 2 years of airline service clearly has problems. The A330-200 has enjoyed continued success in the same timeframe, no doubt aided by the lack of direct competition from Boeing.

I think Boeing may have fallen into the same trap British aircraft makers in the late 1950s/early 1960s, when the VC-10 was designed to meet BOAC requirements and the Trident was designed for BEA. Because these aircraft were so airline-specific, their sales records to other carriers was abysmal. In the same way the 767-400 was designed to stop Continental/Delta defecting to Airbus and meet the needs of US Domestic carriers to replace their DC-10/L1011 fleets. It meets those requiements well but the cancellation of the 764ERX, which would have made the 764 very attractive to potential customers, means the 767-400 is never going to have much appeal outside the US. Potential customers who evaluate ordering the B767-400 usually select the A330, B777 or stick to the existing B767-300 with it's slightly lower capacity but superior range. Range oftnen seems to be the reason protential 764 customers look elswhere; Continental's EWR-HNL route appears to be at the limits of the 764s range.

Shame really, I flew on a Delta B767-400 last year, and it was a very nice aircraft, certainly from a passenger perspective the new cabin is a considerable improvement over the old B767-2/300.

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clickhappy
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:00 am

didn't Kenya order the 764?
 
RickB
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:10 am

Clickhappy - no Kenya cancelled as did ILFC as Crosswind said !!

RickB
 
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:18 am

They cancelled and ordered 777 instead.
 
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 6:59 am

Its only been a little while since the aircraft came out. I am glad that we are giving up on the aircraft, because we all know that the 757s should have been scraped after the first year. Who would try and have fait in an aircraft so young.
 
manni
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:01 am

Yyz717,

ANA has recently confirmed that they ordered 9 767-300 and 5 777-200 aircraft. I doubt they're after the 767-400.

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manni
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:12 am

make it 5 777-300 aircraft,
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Crosswind
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:53 am

Its only been a little while since the aircraft came out. I am glad that we are giving up on the aircraft, because we all know that the 757s should have been scraped after the first year. Who would try and have fait[sic] in an aircraft so young
-----
OK. Lets compare the 757s early order record with that of the 764.

The first 757 delivery was December 22, 1982.
At that stage there were 107 orders for the 757 as follows;
Air Europe (2)
British Airways (17)
Delta (60)
Eastern (25)
Monarch (3)

In the following 2 years up to December 1984, orders were placed for another 28 757s as follows;
Air Europe (1)
LTS (2)
Monarch (1)
Northwest (20)
Singapore Airlines (4)

So yes, in the first couple of years of service the 757 was a slow seller, but it got off the ground with a very healthy orderbook of 107 from 5 different airlines. And it continued to gain orders once it entered service, both follow-ups from existing customers and from new customers.

On the other hand....
The first 767-400 was delivered on August 11, 2000.
At which stage it had 37 orders as follows;
Continental (16)
Delta (21)

In the following 2 years there have been no new orders.

In fact production of the B767-400 has ended, for now, on May 31 2002 Continental took delivery of the final ordered 767-400 - 37 aircraft ordered, 37 delivered.

The 767-400 now has no outstanding orders, and the last order for the type was placed on October 11, 1997. That's just a few weeks off 5 years ago!!!
People are constantly saying
"Give the 767-400 some time..."
Is 5 years without a single order long enoug before we can say this aircraft programme is in trouble, especially for a new variant like the 764?

I'm sorry but the 757 analogy just doesn't work, the 757 initially sold slowly and sales really took off after a few years in service. The 767-400 has secured no new business since in the 5 years since its launch, and it's now been in service 2 years.

I still think the answer to the 767-400s problems is the ERX. The 767-400 already has a new flightdeck, some new systems, a modified wing and a redesigned cabin. What it really needs are new-generation engines and an increased range which would give it much broader appeal, and give it a chance of enjoying similar success to the 767-300.

Regards
CROSSWIND

[The order totals I've used above are from Boeing and exclude subsequently cancelled orders from the likes of Aloha for the 757, and Kenya Airways for the 764 etc]
 
artsyman
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:38 am

OK. Lets compare the 757s early order record with that of the 764.

How can you compare the 764 with the 757, why not compare the 757 with the 767, the 764 is an upgrade of an existing line, it did not need pre orders where as the 757 was a new line, new everything. Boeing wasn't worried about advanced orders as it was coming off the existing 76 line.

Boeing made a healthy profit from the 764 as the costs were very low, and in the end, it will sell plenty more

Jeremy
 
Big777jet
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:04 am

>>>>>>>Coach in any DL plane is horrible. No fault of the 764. I'ver heard CO's are quite nice actually.

-Sean <<<<<<

Sean-

I don't think that Delta's coach is horrible. It is so excellent seat and nice window clear crispy in coach class. I flew 5 times on Delta 764. It was great ride and quiet plane! I just love this plane. Why is horrible? What was the problem is? Please tell me what is complaint about?

Big777jet

 
777gk
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:22 am

Just for clarification, we currently operate 16 767-424/ER models, in addition to 10 767-224/ER aircraft, with 4 remaining orders to be delivered from 2003 onwards. Once all of the initial order are taken up, we will likely order either the 767-300 (again) or a similar number of more 764's. So the aircraft does have outstanding orders, just not that many to speak of  Smile!

Sorry, I hate to nitpick, but I think she is such a great aircraft to fly, and has shown tremendous reliability, versatility, and performs as-advertised. For medium capacity routes from the East Coast to Europe, I don't think Boeing, or any other manufacturer, offers a better solution than this product. Plus, the seat-mile costs are quite low, making it ideal for low-yield, high-capacity routes within short range, i.e. Delta's ATL-Florida routes. If the aircraft's sales grow to include more than the two existing customers (of which I am almost sure, believe it or not COPA has been mentioned as of late), I think it will be a testament to the flexibility and quality of the Boeing product line.
 
cba
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 11:57 am

777gk, what routes would CO use the 763 for? Wouldn't the 763 overlap the current 762 and 764 markets?
 
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STT757
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 12:02 pm

AA is a strong canidate for the 767-400 to replace their A-300s and their oldest 767s, but not untill the economy recovers.

With AA a order of 35 or so aircraft is a strong possibility, as 777gk pointed out the 767-400 is perfect for medium range low yield/ high capacity routes like the Caribean and Latin America.
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akelley728
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:11 am

Cba:I'm sure the 767-300 would be used in markets that have 'outgrown' the 767-200, but can't quite support the 767-400. The 737-700/800/900 is used in much the same fashion.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:27 am

I've heard from one employee of a company that operates the 764 that it is "too much aircraft for the wing" and thus does not peform well fuel-wise. Could anyone comment on that?

Canceling the ER version does not sound to me like a smart move. It could turn the 764 into the second coming of the 737-400, whose too-short range sent United to Airbus to replace its 727-200's.

Jim
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artsyman
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:28 am

I've heard from one employee of a company that operates the 764 that it is "too much aircraft for the wing" and thus does not peform well fuel-wise. Could anyone comment on that?

I have heard that comment on here from delta fans etc, but the same problems are not being had at Continental
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Wed Sep 11, 2002 8:17 am

My guess, the main reason is the poor balance sheets of most airlines.
 
brons2
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:19 pm

I've heard from one employee of a company that operates the 764 that it is "too much aircraft for the wing" and thus does not peform well fuel-wise. Could anyone comment on that?

The 764 carries 246 three class passengers 5600nm on 23,000 gallons of fuel. That doesn't sound so uneconomical to me. Passenger miles per gallon of fuel... (246x5600)/23000=59.895.

The A332 carries 256 three class passengers 6400nm on 36,000 gallons of fuel. Passenger miles per gallon of fuel (256x6400)/36000=45.51

Hmm.

Admittedly, the A332 does carry more cargo. But for routes that don't require the range of the A332, the 764 seems like a better choice.

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keesje
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RE: Where Does The Boeing 767-400 Go From Here?

Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:53 pm

IMO it's not unlikely Delta, United and possibly BA will order A330-200 to replace 767.

It makes more sense then replacing 20 yr old 767's by basically the same less efficient aircraft ..

Question is how much pressure can Continental fleet planners / controllers put on Bethune to convince him not buying in-efficient 767 -200 and 400ER's and dream on SC 's ...
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