dfw-man
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 1999 5:19 am

STL,DFW,ORD,MIA Aa?

Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:02 am

How would you rate these American hubs in terms of importance.I figured that DFW and ORD will be rated higher than MIA and STL.STL is a hub that is up against the ropes imo.Miami has the vast latin america network and the cruise ships.DFW and ORD have the high yeild pax and the o&d traffic.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24560
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: STL,DFW,ORD,MIA Aa?

Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:10 am

DFW and ORD have the high yeild pax and the o&d traffic.

Ummm...MIA has that too. South Florida is almost as large as Dallas-Ft. Worth.

In "importance", I would say Dallas, Chicago, and Miami, in that order, no contest. In future growth, however, Miami will see the bulk of it, while St. Louis will shrink.
a.
 
dfw-man
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 1999 5:19 am

RE: STL,DFW,ORD,MIA Aa?

Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:14 am

I knew that Miami has a large metropolitan area I just did not know that it was comparible to the metroplex.I learn something new every day.
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: STL,DFW,ORD,MIA Aa?

Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:01 am

Dfw-man

Having lived in Dallas and now South Florida, I can tell you that DFW is the fifth largest "tv metro" ( a good indicator of how many viable customers there are in an area) whereas last time I checked, Miami-Ft.Lauderdale was #12.
As a metropolitan area, DFW stretches seemingly endlessly from east to west, whereas the greater Miami area is the same from south in the Keys 80 miles north to the northern stretches Palm Beach County.

The markets are similar...Dallas has it's slightly smaller , rough and tumble sister city Ft. Worth 35 miles away....Miami has Ft. Lauderdale 20 miles or so to the north.

That's where the similarity starts to split. FLL is a large, vibrant airport on its' own merits, pulling a large chunk of potential air traffic away from MIA. At first you would compare this "secondary" airport to MIA as you would DAL to DFW, but FLL doesn't have to operate under the stifling Wright Ammendment like Love Field does. Imagine a large, well served domestic and international airport just to the west of downtown Ft. Worth and you've got a similar situation (plus! put ANOTHER one out around Rockwall to the east, and that's Palm Beach International.)

I think American is vulnerable in South Florida. I think it underserves FLL and especially PBI. The logic seems like a no brainer (our hub is MIA, why would we heavily serve an airport 40 miles away?)....yet they forget most of the population growth in South Florida is Broward County and north. As a Palm Beach resident I would fly from MIA only as last resort....it's a nightmare to get in and out of, I'd NEVER park my car there, and I no hablo espanol, which is the preffered language of operation at MIA.

AA has a huge prescence in MIA, superserving South and Central America and the Caribbean. Take that element out and you find an airline whose domestic service to the airports people actually want to go to ....lacking.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24560
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: STL,DFW,ORD,MIA Aa?

Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:18 am

Heavymetal, I agree with your statements regarding AA in Miami. They underserve the domestic market greatly. No Cinncinatti, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Minneapolis, Memphis, Las Vegas, and Seattle among others, often leaving those markets to other carriers (despite how large, for instance, the Miami-Charlotte and Miami-Las Vegas markets are).

However, they are not that weak at FLL. They are the third largest carrier, and have service to key markets including Boston, LaGuardia, San Juan, Los Angeles, and Nassau. Caracas was supposed to be coming, but given the current situation in Venezuela, it is on indefinite hold. Though they could do better to protect their turf, especially considering that the majority of South Florida's big companies are based in the FLL area.

IMO, TV market size is not a good indicator of over marketize. I do not think Dallas is not #5 (closer to #8/9 I believe) and Miami is not #12 (closer to #14/15). It is especially weak because South Florida is split up since Miami and Palm Beach have different TV markets, and similarly Washington, D.C. is split up because Washington and Baltimore have different TV markets. The stats I perfer to use are Urban Area population figures that the United Nations uses (Miami #5 or 6, Dallas I think #8 or 9) on a global scale, but the most common is just CMSA/MSA used by the Census. Miami and Palm Beach are merging in 2004 (about time), making Miami #10, right behind #9 Dallas. Miami is #12 right now. Miami/Palm Beach, however, represents an area much smaller than Dallas (roughly 60% the size), even though MIA and PBI are in no way co-terminal airports.
a.
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: STL,DFW,ORD,MIA Aa?

Tue Sep 17, 2002 6:30 am

MAH

Thanks for your feedback. I didn't know AA was third at FLL, so thanks for correcting that. Last time I was through there though it seemed like they only had a coupla gates. Still, I don't deny that seasonal traffic still plays a heavy part in deciding routes to South Florida. But that's changing.

Regarding population, I erred when I brought up tv markets...here are market rankings according to Arbitron which is primarily a radio rating service, though used by tv too (not like Nielsen though).

The number to the right is the population over the age of 12 in the "metro".

1 CM New York 15,097,900
2 CM Los Angeles 10,407,400
3 CM Chicago 7,476,700
4 CM San Francisco 5,951,800
5 CM Dallas-Ft. Worth 4,418,400
6 CM Philadelphia 4,221,400
7 CM Houston-Galveston 4,055,300
8 CM Washington, DC 3,928,700
9 CM Boston 3,839,000
10 CM Detroit 3,811,500
11 CM Atlanta 3,617,400
12 CM Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood 3,377,400

Here's the Palm Beach market's rank:

47 CM West Palm Beach-Boca Raton 1,031,900

Add Palm Beaches and Miami/Fort Lauderdale and your number comes up at just a tad under that of the DFW metro. I think you're ranking Dallas as a stand-alone city, which would be like ranking Miami as a standalone. Fort Worth completes the picture and makes the area the super-city that it is.

Personally, I don't think UN numbers are very accurate to apply to US economic centers.

I'm convinced that if the everglades were dry land, Miami would sprawl all the way to the west coast of Florida, a veritible East Coast version of Los Angeles.
Let's hope THAT never happens.

Cheers
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24560
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: STL,DFW,ORD,MIA Aa?

Tue Sep 17, 2002 6:41 am

3I think you're ranking Dallas as a stand-alone city, which would be like ranking Miami as a standalone. Fort Worth completes the picture and makes the area the super-city that it is.

Not at all...Ft. Worth is to Dallas what Ft. Lauderdale is to Miami. They both complete the city, I agree with you. In Miami's case, Ft. Lauderdale/Boca is were mostly all are big companies are based...Office Depot, Sports Authority, ANC, AutoNation, TriArc, Citrix...

AA becoming #3 at FLL (I may be wrong and they may be #4 after CO, but they are #3 when one does not count CO Connection operated by Gulfstream) is recent, thanks especially to the USAirways cutback. Since last September they have doubled flights to Boston, Los Angeles, Nassau, and LaGuardia, and added flights to Dallas and O'Hare. They also added Raleigh, but that route is being sacrificed next month to send some RJs out west. Loads were excellent, but the problem with sending RJs to Miami (which is why only Air France and Comair do) is that they have too many weight restrictions, and cruise ship passengers especially brings lots of luggage. That also did not help with AE's MIA-CMH and -IND flights about two years ago. Full, very popular, but it was stretching the limits. However, American is building some RJ gates at MIA, so obvioulsy RJs are in the future.

I'm convinced that if the everglades were dry land, Miami would sprawl all the way to the west coast of Florida, a veritible East Coast version of Los Angeles.
Let's hope THAT never happens.


Agreed!
a.

Who is online