rolo987
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Cleveland's New Runway?

Sun Sep 22, 2002 10:07 pm

Several years ago, my local airport, Wilkes Barre/Scranton (AVP) lost service to CLE on CO Express because of the new runway they were building in CLE. Are they still constructing the new runway? And do you think they will restore service to CLE from AVP when they finish construction?
 
jjbiv
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:01 am

It sounded like an excuse to me at the time, and it still does now. I hope the cities that lost service get it back, but I wouldn't count on it.

joe
 
N766UA
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:17 am

And to answer your question Cleveland will be building and extending runways for the next few years. I don't see them returning, even after it's all done.
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b764
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:20 am

Were routes like SBN, FWA, TOL etc. not performing and congestion @ CLE give them an excuse to cancel service?
 
N766UA
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:22 am

That's what they said. CO dropped cities like FNT, SBN, TOL, CAK, PIT, ERI, DAY, Etc. I just think it's part of their eventual plan to leave.
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FrequentFlyKid
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:25 am

The new runway is, and has been, under construction at CLE. From what I understand, some cities lost service not only because of the low performance, but also because CO Express in CLE went all jet.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:33 am

There has been some talk to get Continental Connection carriers in the CLE hub to restart services to cities that they pulled out of. However, it will be the same problem again -- people hate 19 seaters. Only cities that they think they can fly 135s profitably to...2-3 times a day...is where they will go back to. The Northwest code-share has kept CO a player in the cities they left...now the question is, will there actually be CO planes in those cities. Who knows.

I should also note, TOL for instance, was fairly strong (give they were only b1900s) with load factors approaching 80% prior to their pull out.
 
che
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 12:54 am

1.Yes they are building the new runway. I think it should be done sometime early-mid next year.
2.CO is not going away-They dropped service to those routes b/c they retired the 1900s, not much traffic on the routes, and they are all jet so it would not make that much sense to operate and erj on those routes.

che
 
redngold
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 6:39 am

The runway is under construction. This is affecting all service at times, because they sometimes have to shut down Runway 6C/24C (the old Runway 6L/24R) and go to an alternative arrival/departure pattern.

COEx did not cut service due to runway construction. COEx cut service because they went all-jet at CLE. We lost the last of our ATRs and Beech 1900s after 9/11.

The first 6000' of the new runway should be completed by December. ATIS now says "Runway 6L/24R under construction."

redngold
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ouboy79
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:34 am

Well...everyone is right and wrong about why CO cut these services. Yes the 1900s are out...of the Co Ex system, not Continental Connection, which they are now trying to get into CLE.

Che one thing to keep in mind is the RJ effect. When Comair started to replace cities that had only 30 seat props and even the old 19 seat Metros...with RJs, they showed huge increased in pax levels. People don't want to fly props...they want jets. You offer them jets...and more people will be drawn to you. Traffic on those routes, for instance TOL with 80% load factors, was about as much as it can sustain. When you start getting over 70% load factor -- you are turning passengers away due to load restrictions and other factors.

Now...about the pull out from the 7 or so cities...here as some news stories.

Airline drops 2 Michigan cities
December 17, 2000
ASSOCIATED PRESS
TOLEDO -- Continental Express Airlines said runway congestion at Cleveland Hopkins Airport will cause it to end service between there and four other cities, including two in Michigan, on March 1.
Operational problems in Cleveland are causing Continental to drop flights from Cleveland to Toledo; Fort Wayne, Ind.; and to Flint and Lansing, airline spokeswoman Julie Gardner said. Gardner said nine Continental Express employees at Toledo Express Airport have been offered the choice of transfers or severance packages. Service could be restored to Toledo once a runway project at Cleveland's airport is completed, Gardner said. Construction is pending on a new runway parallel to the airport's two main runways. Those runways are too close to each other to allow simultaneous takeoffs and landings, which limits the airport's capacity.


And from the Plain Dealer...

This month Continental said it can't add another flight at Hopkins until a new runway is completed, probably in the summer of 2002. We are committed to the Cleveland hub, said spokeswoman Julie Gardner. The problem is the airport is at capacity and so we can't maintain the status quo.

These were probably the smallest cities in the network -- but it had nothing to do with the profitability of those routes...simply a capacity issue. They wanted to add more longer range flights and couldn't do so without causing major delays.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:16 am

CO did cut service to a lot of cities: FNT, MBS, AZO, SBN, FWA, TOL, ERI, CAK, AVP are the ones that come to mind. Someone mentioned DAY, but COEX still flies CLE-DAY. Part if it was due to congestion, but part due to economics.

CAK, for example, was definitely due to congestion: the planes out of CAK were often on long ATC holds because CAK is literally within the approach pattern of CLE, and often, they couldn't find a slot for the planes out of CAK. I don't think CLE-CAK will resurface, although I think COEX should consider CAK-EWR, which would be a great route for possibly twice-daily service.

I think TOL, ERI, FNT, MBS, FWA, etc, were cut in part to congestion, but in part to the feeling that a profit couldn't be made with RJ's in those markets. I have heard that TOL, FNT, FWA, AZO, LAN and SBN may re-acquire COEX service as early as next year, but no definite word on that. CO/COEX still would like to expand once the dual runways are up late this year, but, at least in the short-term, with the airline industry struggling, and CLE's landing fees still so high, I don't think it'll be a major expansion at this juncture.

And, while I'd hate to see the Beech's back in CLE, it might be the only way to offer service to cities like TOL, FWA, SBN, LAN, etc. I just don't think and RJ CLE-TOL would bee too profitable.
 
redngold
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:44 am

So you mean we're going to see Commutair or Gulfstream International as CoConnex carriers here at CLE? Ugh.

The runway congestion thing isn't going to be solved by this construction... The runways will still be too close together to use simultaneous ILS approaches (although in visual conditions it will be OK) and the "new" setup will still require a/c to cross an active.

Not until 2012, when the IX Center comes down and they can build a third parallel, will this change. That's a long time to wait.

The CAK issue is very complicated -- there was also a lot of talk that Clevelanders were buying tickets out of CAK on Continental to take advantage of cheaper prices; they would drive to CAK and make their connection at CLE and save $. So in many cases, CO was losing money on o/d flights because people were using CAK instead.

redngold
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ouboy79
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:52 am

Commutair is the carrier I believe...don't hold me to it.  Smile

CAK has gone from EM2s to buses to BE1s to nothing. Who knows what they will do there.

>>I just don't think and RJ CLE-TOL would bee too profitable.<< Not sure which angle they will want to play here. NW, AA, US, and DL all do RJs to DTW, ORD, PIT (for now), and CVG/ATL respectfully. ATL is 549 miles away, so that doesn't count. DTW is 49 miles away and their jet flight is the best performer during the day. May speculate it is in here for merely PR reasons...but they have also seen a huge increase in pax from when they were just all props. Word is as long as they maintain boardings around 5000 per month they will be upgrading to either an ARJ or adding additional CRJs.

FWA in my opinion got the short end of the stick. They were a fairly new city, under 1 yr of ops i believe, before CO pulled the service. I'm not sure they would be welcomed back by travelers though due to the sudden withdrawl.
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:57 am

I live in Willoughby (Although I'm in Norfolk now attending college), which is on the east side of Cleveland about 35 minutes from CLE, and I know for a fact people drove to CAK to fly CO via CLE for a cheaper fare. Especially business people flying F class. My grandfather's business partners that lived on the east and southeast sides would frequently do that. On top of the cheaper fare, which a lot could care less about since it was the company tag, they only had to fly half the time to reach Elite status since they could get four segments on a standard roundtrip. CAK-CLE-Destination-CLE-CAK. Quite ingenious actually.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:47 pm

FWA in my opinion got the short end of the stick. They were a fairly new city, under 1 yr of ops i believe, before CO pulled the service.

FWA was served well more than one year, I can tell you for a fact. Two to three years is more like it.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:52 pm

The runway congestion thing isn't going to be solved by this construction... The runways will still be too close together to use simultaneous ILS approaches (although in visual conditions it will be OK) and the "new" setup will still require a/c to cross an active.

Well, according to the city and from what I heard from Gordon Bethune at his last CO meeting at CLE, the dual runways will be able to be used simultaneously in all but the worst weather. I don't know what it is, but apparently, some new technology is coming in along with the runway to accomlish that (those four "radar" towers" just northwest of the new runway near the NASA offices?). That's the scoop that I've heard from work.

Sorry-I was going to add this to my last post, but I forgot to.  Smile As for CAK, if you worked with CO as I do, and saw how ever day CAK flights were misconnecting customers, you'd know that the story about dumping it because of ATC was literally true. It happened too many time to be coincidence.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:00 pm

And, while I'd hate to see the Beech's back in CLE, it might be the only way to offer service to cities like TOL, FWA, SBN, LAN, etc. I just don't think and RJ CLE-TOL would bee too profitable.

19-seaters are a very important part of the national air transportation system. I don't like them either, but isn't better to have air service than not? For many small markets, they make the difference between air service or no air service at all. I've read that Federal regulations are making 19-seaters too expensive on a seat-mile basis to operate. Is this true?

In any event, Continental connection runs a bustling business with 19-seat Raytheons in ROC, for example, to ALB and HPN. ERJ-135's would be too big. But thanks to the Raytheons, Rochester business people have an excellent way to Westchester, Albany, and various points east reachable through the Albany Commutair mini-hub. There and back in the same day, without dealing with EWR.

CO's Cleveland hub does not, for better or worse, have the density of Delta's CVG hub. Any number of small markets can be hooked into CO's CLE hub profitably only by 19-seaters. I'll take a 1900 and another airline option, over no air service by that airline, any day!

Jim
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HlywdCatft
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:31 pm

Are you sure CoEx didnt drop Dayton?

I was at the Dayton Airshow last summer and I found it odd that I didnt see any Continental aircraft landing while I was at the show.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:37 am

Are you sure CoEx didnt drop Dayton?

Quite sure, since I work a flight to DAY quite often at the gates. Plus, I almost flew CLE-DAY about 2 months ago for a family reunion.
 
JetService
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Wed Sep 25, 2002 7:13 am

" I have heard that TOL, FNT, FWA, AZO, LAN and SBN may re-acquire COEX service as early as next year, but no definite word on that."

That would be terrific, and I hope it happens! But there's definately something about FWA flyers and Beeches. The same year COEX bugged out, Skyway and Air Canada's feeder (the name escapes me) followed close behind.

I would LOOOOVE to see the COEX ERJs at FWA. Everyone else is using them there; why not them?
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thomacf
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Wed Sep 25, 2002 12:14 pm

I understand when that new runway is complete it will only be 6,000ft and then lengthen over time. Will the existing parallel runway stay open giving CLE three parallel runways until the new one is completely done?
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Wed Sep 25, 2002 9:24 pm

No, Thomas, the existing 6L/24R will become a permanent taxiway, nothing more. The next phase if for 6R/24L to be lengthened to about 12,000 feet, then 6L/24R will eventually be lengthened to around 10.000 feet.

As for the proposed 3rd runway that former Mayor White wanted, if/when the IX Center is torn down, I'd still rather see that area turned into a state-of-the-art passenger terminal. There's more than enough room for a 100 to 120 gate terminal, complete with moving walkways, trams, lots of shops and restaurants and a much better customs area on that site. THAT'S how that land should be developed, long-term.
 
IAHERJ
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:18 am

Dayton is still in the system from IAH-CLE, and EWR. I was scheduled to overnight downtown on Saturday night but changed trips. Clevelend is in, what I think a very strange position for Continental. Almost every city we serve from CLE with the exception of the West Coast and Florida, is served on a 37-50 seat jet. All these cities could easily be fed into EWR or IAH with ERJ's and 737's without the need for CLE as a costly hub. We seem to be committed to CLE and that is a good thing for the community and the employees there. I might add that the CLE employees are some of the most pleasant in the system to work with. They are proud of the hub and the airline they work for. What we will see (in my opinion, which could be wrong) in CLE over the next few years will be an increase in long range ERJ flying using the XR series to cities farther West and into the Florida markets. New Orleans, Salt Lake City, Mexico City, San Antonio, Austin, and cities of the like will be linked up with Cleveland to offer some high end yield much needed in the hub. We bring passangers into CLE from Midwest and East Coast cities but don't give them the destinations they really need without in some cases another leg through IAH or EWR. The ERJ-145-XR can eliminate this problem and possibly open up markets for the 737's down the road as CLE beefs up its departure/arrival rate with the new runway situation.

That's just the opinion of a measly employee who passes through CLE a few times a month flying the ERJ. I'm sure there is a lot more to the equation than this.
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N766UA
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:40 am

According to all the controllers/managment pukes in the Cleveland tower the new runway configuration will not allow for simaltanious approaches. It will mearly allow staggered approaches in good weather. People I've talked to at the ARTCC say the same thing. These people know what they're talking about, city beaurocrats don't.
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redngold
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:19 am

Yes, N766UA, you are correct. So for all of you who have rebutted me in the past,, let me say this: I also get my info directly from pilots and ATC... I now have some pretty good sources right at Hopkins.

Alpha 1: The new runway is going to be 8,000 ft. and the old one that will still be used (6L/24R) will only be extended to 10,000 ft. I have not heard anyone talking about 12,000 ft. in any case. When they say "new 10,000 ft. runway" it is actually an oversimplification of "new runway + other runway extended to 10,000 ft."

redngold
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ncflyer
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:58 am

Any plans to expand the terminals? Seems to me CLE-- CO and all other airlines-- have little to no gate space for expansion, even after the runways are improved. I suppose CO could ad more banks, but I just don't see that happen given the state of the airline industry. CO was rightly the most aggressive at downsizing and very conservative at expanding.

Boy from what this thread is saying, sure seems like CLE is getting little to no bang for the $1B it's spending on the runway project.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 11:04 am

Redngold, we're both wrong.  Smile According to the official site for Hopkins, the new runway will ultimately be 9000 feet.

As for the main runway, it's just short of 10,000 right now, if I'm not mistaken, and I have heard that a further expansion is planned.
 
redngold
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RE: Cleveland's New Runway?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 11:47 am

Alpha --
**The current 6R/24L (I had it reversed in the last posting) is 8,999 ft.
**The current 6C/24R (old 6L/24R) is 7,096 ft. and is slated for closure and conversion to a taxiway.
**Runway 10/28 is 6,017 ft. As far as I know there are no plans to close it, and it is used as a bad weather/crosswind runway.
**Runway 6L/24R (under construction) is due to be opened at 6,000 ft. in December 2002.


redngold
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