El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:51 pm

El Al Israel Airlines reported today (2 hour ago, to be exact) that it would start a Codeshare with Air Canada on the TLV-YYZ route, starting October 28.

At the moment, AC operates 5 weekly flights between TLV and YYZ using 763, while LY flies 3 weekly flights operated by 772 (LY flights continue to LAX from YYZ with 5th freedom rights).

LY is also set to codeshare on further AC flights within Canada and to the US, was reported that LY will get flight numbers for certain flights between YYZ and YUL, YVR, BOS, ORD and SFO.

LY flights number for AC operations between TLV and YYZ will be LY8105/6, while the regular number is LY105/6.

Before the Middle East crisis (the Intifada) has started AC was flying 9 weekly flights between TLV and YYZ/YUL with 763, the airline was planning to fly 2 daily flights between TLV and YYZ/YUL using A340, but then the crisis had occured and those plans were ceased.

LY on the other hand had withdrawn its YUL operations 2 years ago. The airline unveiled its plans for its new YYZ operation last November, stating that it would operate the TLV-YYZ route continuing on to LAX on a 3 weekly flights basis, with another extra weekly flight during high season.

LY codeshare list with Star Alliance members grows, LY codeshares with AUA group, Thai, LOT (a future member) and now Air Canada. LH might be the next one.

I just wonder what an effect this new agreement might have on LY operations between YYZ and LAX. All in all, Im very satisfied.

Michael  Smile
 
Guest

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:12 pm

And prices are likely to go "el-al", too...like for flights between Switzerland and Israel; BTW, even if prices go slightly up, there are also many convenient consequences.


Hi Mike! how are you?
 
godbless
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2000 5:26 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:09 pm

I would really love to see El Al grow closer to Star and this might be a good step towards it.
Lufthansa operates quite an amount of flights to Israel with the A340 (at least from FRA) so working together with LY might be very good for both.

And I would love to use my "Miles & More" miles to Israel on EL AL then too...  Smokin cool

Max
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:36 pm

Any possibility of seeing YUL-TLV back??

Mark
 
polaris
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Tue Sep 24, 2002 12:27 pm

The most interesting element about this is that two carriers that were supposedly competitors, and were supposedly complaining about each other, will now become code-share partners.

I remember arguments and debates on this site by people supporting "their" airline. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, negotiations were going on. Just goes to show, no need to argue.

Do we know which carrier will operate this daily service? Will it vary by day? What aircraft will be used?

In reply to FLYYUL, the way I read it, for the time being, the service is Tel Aviv - Toronto with El Al applying their codes on Air Canada services from Toronto to Montreal, Vancouver, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco.

My question is: does anyone have info on the bilateral agreement that allowed this code-share? This had to be something very recent.

Here is the article I read:

Monday September 23, 4:50 AM EDT

TEL AVIV, Sept 23 (Reuters) - El Al Israel Airlines [ELAL.UL] and Air Canada said on Monday they signed a code sharing agreement under which they will jointly operate seven flights a week to Toronto from Tel Aviv starting November 1.

In addition, El Al will use joint codes on selected Air Canada flights from Toronto to Montreal, Vancouver, Boston, Chicago and San Francisco.

Air Canada normally operates five flights a week between Israel and Canada in the winter while El Al flies three times a week.

Although the number of combined weekly flights will fall to seven from eight, an El Al spokeswoman said the airline will fly larger aircraft so that the overall number of passenger seats will not decline.

©2002 Reuters Limited
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24600
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Tue Sep 24, 2002 12:30 pm

Does this mean the end of El Al to ORD?
a.
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Wed Sep 25, 2002 10:27 pm

Hi guys!

More info I can give at the moment is that AC and LY will operate togather a daily flight to YYZ, so that AC will axe a weekly flight, reducing its TLV operation to 4 weekly flights instead of 5.
LY will operate 3 weekly flights to YYZ operated by 777s, while AC will operate the rest 4 weekly flights with 763s.
In this way, the two airlines will be able to offer a daily service between Israel and Canada. Both airlines depart TLV and YYZ at the same time daily.

No plans for YUL-TLV operation at any time in the near future.

NAA keeps on flying to ORD on behalf of LY until further notice.

Michael
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:16 pm

EL AL 001,

Montreal has one of the largest jewish communities in North America. For 30 years, Montreal supported service to TLV. Air Canada started the route pretty much kicked LY out of Montreal due to the duplication of service, and now nothing....

Do you feel that once peace stabilizes in Israel in the near to medium-term future, that this route could once again be viable?!

Mark
 
AWspicious
Posts: 2780
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 7:47 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:17 pm

So, is/was the 744 used only for the summer season? I've seen LY alternate btwn the 777 and the 747 on occasion... Much like how BA does with their 777s and 747s into YYZ. I guess it depends on .....????

aw
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:36 pm

...Demand

Yep, at summer this route supports 744s vs. low seasons.
When LY established this service it was done by 762 (!), and only when 5th freedom rights were given + pax got familiar with the new service LY upgraded it to 777s.

FLYYUL, LY and AC were huge enemies, when AC got permission to fly YUL-TLV after a massive threat from the Canadian authorities to ban LY from flying over Canada on its way to the US, LY reacted in axing YUL immediately.

Anyway, I think that once things get stable at TLV and tourists will come again to visit Israel, LY will reopen its YUL station.

Michael
 
polaris
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:59 am

LY and AC were huge enemies, when AC got permission to fly YUL-TLV after a massive threat from the Canadian authorities to ban LY from flying over Canada on its way to the US, LY reacted in axing YUL immediately

I think the wording here is a bit harsh...enemies, massive threat, ban, reacted, axing.

Suffice it to say, there were some bilateral issues that needed to be resolved in order to make the agreement more fair and acceptable to both countries. This takes us to where we are today...a code-share.
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:32 am

Harsh?!! Just read the following articles taken from the Israeli business arena archive:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Canada Officially Bans El Al Flights En Route to US

The ban will be in effect until Israel allows Air Canada to operate seven weekly flights to Israel, as opposed to the currently approved four.

The government of Canada issued an official statement to the government of Israel today, forbidding El Al Israel Airlines from flying over Canadian airspace en route to the United States, due to Israel's refusal to approve additional Air Canada flights to Israel.

The statement was delivered by Canadian Ambassador Michael Bell to Minister of Transportation Yitzhak Mordechai and to the head of the Civil Aviation Administration Yitzhak Herzog.

Canada did not state when sanctions against El Al are scheduled to begin but noted that the ban on flying over Canadian airspace would be in effect until Israel approved a request by the Canadian national carrier for seven weekly flights, year-round, as opposed to the currently approved four. This week, Air Canada reduced the number of flights from seven per week to four therefore, it would appear the sanctions are in effect immediately.

Air Canada is demanding it be allowed to operate daily flights to and from Israel all year round, not only in summer. In recent weeks, the government of Canada had expressed hope that the airline crisis would not develop into a diplomatic one.

Herzog's explanation for the refusal was that El Al did not have code sharing agreements with US airlines and requested that El Al be granted a three year period to sign those agreements. Air Canada claimed in response that there was no connection between its own activities and El Al's commercial considerations or its weaknesses in the US market.

El Al issued a statement today, saying it had appealed to the International Air Transport Authority requesting it review Canada's threats. IATA's president told El Al in response "Carrying out a threat to close air space, as a commercial pressure tactic, is not acceptable within our organization."

El Al added that a ban on its flights over Canada would bring about the cancellation of all other flight-related activities between the two countries, including stopping Air Canada flights to Israel entirely.

The ban on using Canadian air space would force El Al to fly via more southerly routes and would increase flight times by 30 minutes. The US route is El Al's most profitable, with 20 flights a week between the US and Israel.

Published by Israel's Business Arena on November 9, 1999.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Canada Increasing Flights to Israel

The airline will operate nine weekly flights from Montreal and Toronto to Tel Aviv. In protest, El Al has stopped flying to Montreal.

Air Canada is increasing the number of its flights to Israel. Starting tonight, the airline will operate nine weekly flights from Toronto and Montreal to Tel Aviv. Under the new arrangement, the airline will operate a daily flight from Tel Aviv to Toronto, departing at 01:30, and two flights to Montreal on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 13:00.

In protest against the increased number of Air Canada flights to Israel, decided on by Prime Minister Prime Minister and Minister of Defense Ehud Barak in opposition to the Ministry of Transport Civil Aviation Authority, El Al has abandoned flights to Montreal.

Air Canada posts a steady rise in passenger traffic each year. In 1999, Air Canada flew 107,952 passengers, a 26% rise over 1998 when it had 85,667 passengers, and a rise over 1997 when it flew 73,875 passengers. The increase also continues this year, and in January-April 2000, a 65% rise was posted in passenger traffic, compared with the corresponding period in 1999.

Air Canada general manager Robert Milton told "Globes" that the airline is demanding what is known in the aviation world as "open occupancy" (no restrictions on the number of flights) to be implemented on the line to Israel. At the first stage, the airline is seeking to operate 14 weekly flights, two a day.

The Civil Aviation Administration's stand is that the number of Israeli passengers to Canada, and of Canadian tourists arriving in Israel does not justify increasing the number of flights. The Administration claims that Air Canada is in fact flying US residents from the US to Israel, via Canada, and is biting into El Al's US operations.

Published by Israel's Business Arena on 4 July, 2000
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You wanna read more of the 'war' that was going on between LY and AC 2 years ago??? Harsh, ha?!

Michael



 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:40 am

Montreal has one of the largest jewish communities in North America. For 30 years, Montreal supported service to TLV. Air Canada started the route pretty much kicked LY out of Montreal due to the duplication of service, and now nothing....

Montreal used to have one of the largest Jewish communities, but not any more. I don't even think it ranks in the top ten in North America. Many Montreal Jews (I have insight as my "Jewish" side is in Montreal) have moved to Toronto, Vancouver, the U.S. or even Israel and some that stay intermarry. There are presently 100,000 people of Jewish decent in Montreal and that number is declining.

But look, Chicago (and I don't really count the NAA flights), Washington, D.C., San Francisco, Buenos Aires and Philadelphia all have larger Jewish populations than Montreal and Toronto and El Al does not fly to any of those cities.
 
shlomoz
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 9:36 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:27 am

What happens to LY's service from YYZ to LAX?
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:33 am

RAJ,

Stop your generalization!

Montreal's jewish population (1st or 2nd origin Jewish population) is still in the top 5. Anybody would love to bash Montreal, talk about its declining this and that...

There are over 100,000 in population. The latest report by B'Nai Brith said that the community was stable, and growing.

I know your an angry X-Montrealer, just like the rest of them. So when ever saying something, CAN YOU SAY SOMETHING POSITIVE ABOUT THE CITY???

Let me give you a generalization, everybody is moving away from Montreal. There is no business, there are no viable markets from Montreal, there is economic growth, there is a massive exodus, and all of the flights leaving Montreal stop in Toronto..... is that what you want to hear?

Mark
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:02 am

Wrong, Mark. First of all, my father is an ex-Montrealer, not me. I'm an ex-Canadian, but that's besides the point. And if it makes you feel any better, I think Toronto is a shithole (I lived there for a bit), but that's another debate.

Here are the largest Jewish cities in the North America:

New York 1,900,000
Los Angeles, California 585,000
Miami, Florida 535,000
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 315,000
Chicago, Illinois 250,000
Boston, Massachusetts 228,000
San Francisco, California 210,000
Toronto, Ontario 175,000
Washington, DC 165,000
Baltimore, Maryland 100,000
Montreal, Quebec 100,000

I think L.A. and New York's population is a bit more than the figures above because Orange County (L.A.) and Rockland County (NYC) are not included in these figures.

This is from http://www.wjc.org.il.

If it also makes you feel better, Jews are moving out of Toronto as well. Mostly to Vancouver, the U.S. or Israel. They're not very happy about the way the Canadian government has handled the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Canadian Jews are very, very sensitive about this...a lot more than their counterparts down here.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:08 am

Where do you get Vancouver??

Jews have a strong allegiance with the US, they hate Canada. Almsot all of my jewish friends wish to be American.... yuck!

Mark

 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:21 am

Vancouver because of the weather. America because it's more pro-Israel, better weather and business opportunities. But the U.S. is not a good place to be "Jewish". Over 50% of Jews here marry someone of a different faith. Inter-faith marriages are much rarer in Canada.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24600
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:24 am

I think L.A. and New York's population is a bit more than the figures above because Orange County (L.A.) and Rockland County (NYC) are not included in these figures.

The NYC figure seems right, but I don't know about Los Angeles. The Miami figure is a little lower. Miami has closer to 615,000 Jews (in fact, in Miami-Dade County, roughly 40% of the Caucasion population is Jewish), including Palm Beach.

I'd like to see El Al expand MIA services before doing anything about YUL. We finally got 772s and 744s this summer, but they are back to NAA feeders for the winter. Do they still serve MCO?
a.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 9:52 am

The Montreal Jewish population is very diverse. Some elements are growing (Sephardic/French speaking & Hassidic/Hebrew speaking) while others are declining (Ashkenazie/English speaking).
The inter-marriage rate is considerably lower than elsewhere.
Every time I fly from YUL to New York there are Hassidm on board.
I think most Jews travelling from Montreal to Israel now transit to ElAl through New York.
 
polaris
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 11:54 am

El Al 001 Yes, I still consider the terminology harsh. I sense you are being a tad condescending, which I don't appreciate.

You posted two articles as published in the Israeli press. That media would, of course, give the Israeli side of the story. As such, they would use terminology that I, as a Canadian, would call harsh. There are always multiple sides to every story.

The bilateral in force at that time would appear to favour Israel. El AL was able to provide continuous service while CP (which held previous Canadian rights) and Air Canada (which assumed the rights after a trade with CP) were unable to offer effective operations on the route. Canada wanted a more equitable bilateral. Which, as you can read in the articles, the Israeli government was prepared to review. What you posted are basic negotiating tactics as interpreted through one organization (Israel's Business Arena). In order to understand Isreal's Business Arena's perspective, I would ask about their general editorial position. El Al, on the other hand, would be subject to additional competition so one would expect them to fight any changes to the bilateral.

For El AL to abandon flights to Montreal in order to protest any new agreement is rather odd. Why would a carrier abandon a supposedly successful market in protest? El Al held quite a few rights out of Montreal. In my view, El Al was looking for a reason to leave that market and used this as an excuse. Otherwise, this doesn't make sense.

To bring this up to date, the carriers that were supposedly at "war" on the surface, were actually sleeping together behind the scenes. This produced a code-share agreement.

Now, this whole matter is moot.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:30 pm

Raj is correct. The YUL Jewish community used to be the largest in Canada, but a large segment of the population left with the general flight to YYZ. Now the YYZ Jewish community is the largest.

Jews have a strong allegiance with the US, they hate Canada. Almsot all of my jewish friends wish to be American.... yuck!

What kind of comments are these FLYYUL?

I know your an angry X-Montrealer, just like the rest of them. So when ever saying something, CAN YOU SAY SOMETHING POSITIVE ABOUT THE CITY???


Oh brother






I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:38 pm

Well YUL was good for LY until AC started the route. And obviously the route wasnt large enough for AC & LY. Furthermore, LY was veyr concerned about YUL, and wanted YMX. ADM refused.. to this date, the manager of LY Canada says Mirabel is the airport of choice, and LY would return if they can go there..

I think perhaps LY feels threathened by a few arab carriers in Montreal, or having these planes depart close to eachother (the mingling of Egyptians and Israelis or whoever, is not a particularly good mix)..

Mark
 
polaris
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:47 pm

To pick up on your point FLYYUL, El Al has extensive rights out of Montreal. They could actually build a hub in Montreal where they could use large aircraft from Tel Aviv to Montreal and feed many smaller aircraft out of Montreal to US destinations. They had actually started doing this a few years ago. Because of these rights, Mirabel might suit their operations better than Dorval.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:56 pm

I think perhaps LY feels threathened by a few arab carriers in Montreal, or having these planes depart close to eachother (the mingling of Egyptians and Israelis or whoever, is not a particularly good mix)..



This is nonsense. EL AL flies to many cities with heavy Arab traffic. JFK and most Euro cities. Indeed, EL AL flies to Cairo, the largest Arab city in the world.

The YUL-TLV market is simply too small to support both AC and EL AL (unlike YYZ).

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:19 pm

Yeah I agree Polaris!!

I just find it funny how one year you've got 4 weekly flights to TLV, then the next the whole route is axed. i mean I work at CO/NW, and on our 2:38p to EWR (CO878) we must shuttle at least 15-20 per day to TLV, then add AC/AA/DL blah blah....

Anyway, I know EL AL will never return. But had they been in Mirabel, they perhaps would have had much more success. My Buddy Brian Nutt used to work for Hudson General.... (he is now a CSA at NW with me)..

Anyway, as he was the manager at the time, he kept telling me how many summer they used to get 200-250 people from Montreal. The winters were always slow, but the summers were always a crunch. When LY left, the reasoning from management was the lack of comfort that the airline felt in Dorval, plus AC diluting the market. Note, Air Canada had full flights to TLV also.. but they realized that it would be better to move that traffic to YYZ..

Montreal is the only North American market where in a single concourse, there could be an Egyptair, Royal Air Maroc and EL AL plane, with all passengers inter-mixing together. At JFK, I think AT/MS/Saudi are in a different terminal than LY (at least I think).. its just speculation as to why EL AL felt uneasy at Dorval.

So in short, before the mideast escalations, LY had flown in Montreal for over two decades. Now I doubt that things all of a sudden dropped off the map for them. Even with the exodus of the mid90's, that exodus has slowly calmed down. The community is still strong, large, and vibrant, and without a doubt in my mind they could come back with strong success on a say YYZ-YUL-TLV routing, or BWI-YUL-TLV etc etc....

Mark
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:29 pm

Polaris, you didn't understand me, I wasn't writing the above in order to support El Al, in fact, I think that LY behavior (I also thought so when it all happened) was rather 'childish'.

I gave those articles because you said that I use harsh words in this matter, such as: massive threat, ban, reacted, axing... But that was the exact story..
And BTW, the course of events was very harsh indeed.
in fact, now that I think about it, I remember AC executive (Ruth Ben-Tsur) in Israel once said that LY can only dream of codesharing with AC... (Im sure I can find an article to quote that too.)

Regarding YUL, LY rested its case, AC couldn't maintain the route for more than just few months after starting serving it.
Anyway, LY would rather fly again on its own to ORD and MIA before reopening YUL.

Michael
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:34 pm

LY was flying for years TLV-YUL/YMX-YYZ and TLV-YUL/YMX-EWR/JFK with 742s.

Regardless the topic, LY reported today that it would convert one of its pax 742C back to freight configuration, another a/c will be converted at year end, that would leave only AXQ as a pax 742 in the LY fleet (that's if the a/c wont be retired).

Michael
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:44 pm

Negative ELAL001, AC had been operating YULTLV from May 1997 to June 2000. The flights were always sold-out per AC CSA's and regular posters on this board such as Pierre Langlois (who works at gate 1 at Dorval)... its not that the flight didnt do well, AC decided that it would be a better idea to transfer these flights to Toronto, since it was their hub. So because of this desicion, the flights WERENT VIABLE? Thats not entirely correct. The success of the YYZ/YUL-TLV ac flights were due to the following reason:

The late departure time (23:55) provided many connections with inbounds from LAX/SFO... I remember at one time Pierre saying that the flights from YYZ/YUL had as many as 120 connections coming from these two destinations (SFO,LAX) from Montreal and Toronto... so if this is AC scenario, why operate 5 weekly YYZ-TLV and 2 weekly YUL-TLV, when you can just do daily YYZ-TLV... and I cant blame them for adopting this strategy, but at the time (before the mideast conflict), AC then decided to operate YYZ/YUl-TLV 9 timesweekly.. then the whole thing wentto crap... so if AC ever wants toexpand the TLV market, it could only open a route from Montreal and wouldnt be allowed a double daily YYZ-TLV due to the bilateral in place.

Anyway, before the mideast escalations, EL AL operated in Montreal for decades. It was the first international arrival ever at Dorval international airport, with almost 130 people coming off a B762 doing TLV-YUL-YYZ... The combination of the AC presence on the route, YUL's curfew (remember LY wanted to land at 6:05am (not allowed due to curfew), and past midnight (not allowed curfew), made LY leave. Also, (I have that press release in my hand, the one which stated LY's reasons of departure from Montreal" clearly mentionned that before Ac's involvment on the route, their flights had alwasy been profitable. I mean LY APPARENTLY made money in Montreal's darkest moments... and now that things have come back to life, it cant..... We all know for a fact that LY was and will never be happy with Dorval.

In the future, I think an ORD-YUL-TLV flight would be ideal for El AL. I do think the YYZ community is bigger, and same for ORD/MIA, but I guessthe current crap in the middle east doesnt allow for much expanding....

Hoping for peace, and an EL AL return to Montreal..

Mark

 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:53 pm

"LY was flying for years TLV-YUL/YMX-YYZ and TLV-YUL/YMX-EWR/JFK with 742s."

I believe that the flights must have been profitable at one time, i mean theyve been flying this route for decades. The exodus to Toronto and other fascinating boring North American cities had stopped in the mid to late 90's. Just in 1997, LY had expanded their service to Montreal from 2 weekly to 3 weekly, from B767-200's to B747-200's.

like it or not, LY was knocked off in Montreal by AC. And we all know how AC works in ITS TERRITORIES, and we have developed a pattern here, AC goes after its competitors, after knocking them out, they pull out, until somebody gives them a run for their money.. a perfect example YUL-ATL with JAZZ, YUL-CDG with AF, YUL-LGA expanded after US and DL expand, YUL-LAX after C3 threats of a YUL-LAX, YUL-FLL after JetsGo wants a piece of the market.. blah blah blah the story goes on and on and on, and this trend will continue until im alive.

But if you flew to a place that had been profitable for you for decades and decades.,then All of a sudden, AC comes in and duplicates your service for which demand is not THAT outstanding but enough to be profitable, then you dont have a choice. LY didnt have the resources AC had, it certainly was a no-win situation. WHen airlines pull moves, there is more than just "money" to their intentions, but the usual suspects on this board will try to make me look like an idiot, and attempt to say otherwise.

Im hoping they will come back..

Mark

P.S Neil, please dont rebutt these points.. i know your going to stir some controversy which goes without saying.. spare it from the posters on this board.. thank you!

 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 9:26 pm

And we all know how AC works in ITS TERRITORIES, and we have developed a pattern here, AC goes after its competitors, after knocking them out, they pull out, until somebody gives them a run for their money.. a perfect example YUL-ATL with JAZZ, YUL-CDG with AF, YUL-LGA expanded after US and DL expand, YUL-LAX after C3 threats of a YUL-LAX, YUL-FLL after JetsGo wants a piece of the market.

What are you saying? This is just competition. Combined with the fact that YUL can't sustain 2 carriers on many routes. Why is competition a problem?


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:58 pm

I don't see how "competition" is knocking ElAl off a route and then moving the same route to a hub that is 350 miles farther away in the opposite direction from the ultimate destination.

Result for YUL = one lost carrier/route that worked for decades before AC's predatory behavoir. Now AC have forced a codeshare to cement the move.

How does losing an extra 3 to 4 hours on a flight for YUL-TLV exemplify the benefits of competition for the local YUL market ?

Nobody can deny that it is annoying when your own local interests (wherever that may be) become secondary (unimportant ?) to the interests of a larger entity.

Something can be viable at a local level but torpedoed when a larger strategy comes into play.This is the reality and it sucks when you feel like your own interests have been sacrificed in the process.This is what happened here.

 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:48 am

Skywatcher,

Your totally right. You cant deny what you have said. But I just find it funny and fitting to see that as soon as LY left, Air Canada said "well LY isnt a threat to us in Montreal anymore, so lets move our Tel Aviv flights to Toronto"..

Air Canada did it a quiet way. First, Air Canada expanded YYZTLV to daily, kept the YULTLV a 2 daily. But what Air Canada effectively did was move the departure from 2355 to 1730. That's a terrible hour for possible connectors, and result in a decrease in passenger loads. No other flights going to TLV in North America leaves before 2200 (at least flights operated by a North American carrier). In short, those huge connector loads coming off late inbounds from YVR, LAX, SFO, ORD, LGA, BOS etc were significantly reduced.

All in all, this is the reality, and we YULers have accepted to a certain agree. My point, Air Canada will act at YUL when its under attack, or the threat of being under attack. Again AC did it with AF, JetsGo, Canjet, Canada 3000, Delta, USAir etc...

If LY were ever to return, I wonder if AC would restart the route.. that would be fitting  Big thumbs up

Mark
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:04 am

Mark, I hope you realize that my discussions in here are regardless of my username, I haven't wrote anything that support LY vs. AC, I even called LY behavior "childish", so there's no need in 'attacking' me (now that might be a use of harsh word...  Smile)

Anyway, I meant to say that after the threats by the Canadians, which led to AC permission to RESTRAT YUL-TLV, AC was able to operate this route only for further few months.

And BTW, LY service to YUL was 3 weekly for a very short time, only at summer, most of the year LY used to fly 2 weekly flights to YMX by 742 continuing to JFK/EWR/YYZ.

And in case you wondered, when LY returns to ORD on its own (and it will happen), this route will be a direct service like it used to be before the latest MeadEast crisis; 4 weekly 762 nonstop flights (The longest schedule 767-200 route in the world!)

Michael
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:16 am

>>> "No other flights going to TLV in North America leaves before 2200 (at least flights operated by a North American carrier)."<<<

1st of all, you were right in adding the brackets, LY departs North America (JFK and EWR) in the following hours: 12:00, 14:30, 19:30, 23:50 etc'

BUT, that might be the truth only for the moment, when CO and AC are the only North American airlines to serve TLV.

When CO strated flying to TLV 2 or 3 years ago it was departing EWR daily at 17:30 in order to depart TLV back to EWR at noon.
Also Delta, when the airline was flying to TLV one year ago it had an after-noon departure from JFK to TLV.
Tower Air had an after-noon departure from JFK to TLV as well.

Michael
 
flyyul
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: El Al & Air Canada, Hot News

Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:25 am

EL AL 001,

Im not attacking you at all... I have much respect for your views.

I just find it sad...

Mark