polaris
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Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:32 pm

ONE of the (many) reasons for Canada 3000's failure was its attempt to morph into a scheduled carrier. When Canada 3000 folded, its revenue came 60% from charter operations and 40% from scheduled operations. Scheduled operations are, of course, more expensive to maintain. Canada 3000 held scheduled rights in Canada and to the US, Germany, the UK, France, and India. All other services were charter. Even the scheduled foreign rights appeared to operate like charter operations.

Air Transat is a charter operator that holds scheduled rights within Canada and to the US, Cuba, and France. Their foreign scheduled operations appear to operate like charters. By way of example, the following notation appears in the Paris column of the Montreal Flight Guide: "Schedule may vary. Please confirm with your travel agent". This is supposedly a scheduled service.

In June, Air Transat was granted scheduled rights into Portugal (scheduled, not gliding rights  Big grin ). In September they were granted scheduled rights to Belgium, the Netherlands, Ireland, Italy, and Poland. The licences for Belgium and the Netherlands have already been applied for and have been granted (by the Canadian side). Ireland must approve multiple carriers into their country because the current bilateral allows only one scheduled Canadian carrier.

This being said, can Air Transat become a viable scheduled carrier while maintaining charter operations? Wasn't their long-term goal to focus on charter operations? Would they have to break into separate charter and scheduled divisions? Could they upgrade their scheduled service to the point of joining SkyTeam? ...or will they go the way of Canada 3000?

 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:53 pm

All TS is doing is basically converting their charter routes into scheduled routes. They are NOT buying smaller carriers (as C3 did) and attempting to grow quickly. The TS approach to expansion is very slow & so far successful.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
polaris
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:02 pm

That's a good point. They didn't buy any other carrier(s).

...but scheduled services don't provide the guaranteed income that charter services provide. On a charter service, the tour operator would basically pay a fee for the whole plane. Scheduled services rely on filling each seat.

Another thought comes to mind. Would they use the same aircraft configuration on scheduled services as on charter services?

 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:27 pm

Given that the markets that they have been awarded scheduled service to are largely leisure markets, the same cabin would probably suffice.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
polaris
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:26 pm

Well, Neil, it looks like it's just you and me, mon ami. This topic might be a year early.

I agree, these are leisure markets and, as such, the carrier probably won't have to reconfigure its aircraft.

My real point here is that revenue streams are very different for charter and scheduled flights. For the scheduled flights, the carrier will have to fill each seat with the standard scheduled mix: business, full-fare economy, visiting-friends-and-relatives, leisure, and cargo. For the charter flights, the fee for the whole aircraft comes from the tour operator. It is up to the tour operator to fill the aircraft. These are two very different types of revenue streams.

For the actual scheduled flights, the airline will also have to ensure that it has the aircraft available to operate according to a schedule. Charters often tend to be a little more "flexible" with their hours of operation.

A.net members don't seem prepared to discuss this topic. We might have to re-visit this topic in a year when news of Air Transat's charter/scheduled operations start to filter through the media.

 
yow
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:07 pm

The impression I get with Transat is that any charter routes that have been technically converted over to charter routes, they still operate them in basically the same manner (i.e very low frequency, still market tour packages, still sell them with Air Transat Vacations, etc.) As long as Transat sticks to it's niche, I see no reason why they won't be around for many years to come.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:22 pm

I don't think the revenue streams are that different for charter routes vs sked routes over leisure markets. The yields are similar and the buying patterns of the customers are similar.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
polaris
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Sun Sep 29, 2002 3:55 am

Yes, I agree, because of the markets, the configuration, type of passenger, etc, might not make much of a difference...however, scheduled operations are very different from charter operations. No one has offered anything on this. The pressures and specifics of scheduled services vs. the same for charter services. I thought someone might be able to offer informed views on this.

How about SkyTeam? Air France has been looking for a Canadian partner for the past few years. Could Transat become this partner as they grow their scheduled services?

Where's the Montreal input? The ones who say there should be scheduled service between Montreal and Portugal, Belgium, Italy...Here you go. Air Transat now has these rights.

Air Transat is proposing daily scheduled service to Portugal. Yes, this includes scheduled flights from Montreal.

Air Transat already has their Canadian licence into Belgium and is expected to begin Montreal - Brussels scheduled service this winter (providing they get their Belgian licence).

Air Transat is also proposing scheduled services between Montreal and Rome starting next summer.

 
manni
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Sun Sep 29, 2002 4:42 am

At the moment Air Transat is flying twice weekly charter services to Brussels. However this is only seasonal and will end next month. If Air Transat is expected to fly scheduled services to BRU starting this winter, would that be also twice weekly or would they do better than that?
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
polaris
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Sun Sep 29, 2002 12:15 pm

No specific details have been issued about the scheduled service to Belgium. But, because they applied for the licence so quickly, I would think there will be some info soon.
 
ba319-131
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Sun Sep 29, 2002 12:49 pm

If TS did provied a daily schd service (for example) they have the ability to sell several ways:-

Direct bookings with the airline

Sell a block of seats on each flight to 'Bucket Shops/Internet outlets'

Sell a block of seats on each flight to Tour Operators.

In the latter 2 cases,once sold TS get paid,even if the agent cannot sell the seats.

If TS can do this and get it right they are on fairly safe ground in certain markets,providing they can control their costs.

I would advise against a daily service to Portugal though,how on earth would anybody sustain that market?.....CO operate 757's on the route and it's full in summer,not sure about winter,but thats to the 'States'(no offence to Canada).I just cannot see a daily CANADA-PORTUGAL market working,one a week yes,but not daily.

Rgds

BA319-131
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:20 pm

When C3 was around, there were over 7 weekly flights from YYZ to Portugal, including LIS, Oporto, Faro, and the Azores. YYZ has a huge, prosperous Portuguese population. (Right Nuno?!?).

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:55 pm

Neil ... huge Portuguese community? Yes, but prosperous? No. If as a whole were a prosperous community, TAP and Air Canada would be fighting for our business. I think Air Transat could offer daily flights to Portugal, given the number of destinations this really signifies, as you've mentioned Neil.

Hopefully they'll have these flights in operation for the Christmas schedule, as I might be spending Christmas in Portugal this year. And they better use the L1011!!!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Cpt Underpants
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:58 am

All this talk about their future, while the airline portion of Transat AT is still suffering the after affects of the glide into Lajes. The safety improvements demanded by Transport Canada are nowhere near what TC wants yet, and there seems to be a genuine lack of interest from senior management to do what it takes to improve the airline. It's no secret that the big cheese at Transat AT has been looking for a way to get out of the airline and concentrate on being a very successful tour operator. With Skyservice and other emerging competitors starting to move in on some of their turf (YMX and YVR to Hawaii), it should be an interesting winter.

Just MHO.

Cpt Underpants
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:24 am

Actually Nuno, I would argue that since the YYZ-Portugal market is primarily VFR/tourist (with little business traffic), it would be hard for TAP or AC to service profitably given their high costs. It's a market perhaps best left to the charters. TAP is also in some financial difficulty (along with most Euro flag carriers) due to its high costs.

Also, the YYZ-Portugal market is very disbursed. Most Portugese in Canada are from the Azores, hence C3/TS flying to several Azores markets over the years as well as Lisbon, Oporto, Faro......each market individually could support perhaps 1 or 2 weekly flights but collectively it would add up to a daily YYZ-Portugal flight.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:13 am

Neil, you're disagreeing with me and agreeing at the same time! I said above, we're not a prosperous community, and hence there aren't big business ties with this community and Portugal, or the European market. So we do agree that because of that, Air Canada and TAP will not be fighting for the route.

And I also agreed that it wouldn't be daily YYZ to LIS, but rather daily YYZ to Portugal, to one of its many distinations.

What does surprise me is that there hasn't been any other players on this route since C3 ceased operations. TAP could use YES (their charter division) on flights to Toronto for example.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:18 am

It seems that alot of the former C3 capacity to many markets has not been replaced yet, whether Portugal, Florida, the UK, New Zealand, India (however shortlived THAT puppy was!).

Does TS even fly to the Azores at all? (I mean intentionally).

Neil


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:29 am

Yes, I believe TS does intentionally fly to the Azores, where they compete with SATA. I'm surprised that SATA is able to do these flights, assuming they are profitable, with comfortable A310's. They have a much roomier seating plan than the Air Transat A310's.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:06 am

Does SATA fly to YYZ?

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:31 am

yes, SATA does fly to YYZ ... you haven't been spotting enough there! They fly regularly with their A310.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Transat The Next Canada 3000?

Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:35 am

The TS seating on the A310 and A330 is horrendous! 9-abreast!

Except for the one 333 which remains at 2-4-2 which means it has the same # of seats as the 332's. I guess they want to rotate the 333 on all 332 skeds. Seems odd that they do not want to maximize the 333 capacity.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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