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Fly-K
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I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:54 pm

After reading the discussion on
http://www.pprune.org/
(go to forums > reporting points > Lufthansa Cockpit Door)
I now regret that I posted this photo here at all:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt



Not only is the discussion immature (and this from pilots!), but I got personally flamed, and who knows which consequences this will have for me.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
tsentsan
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:02 pm

Konstantin,

I'm sure the pilots are worried about their jobs if somebody from management or FAA sees this, and queries. Perhaps the pilots might lose their jobs.

I dont know but this photo might be OK, if you left out the registration and airline flown. :-( Perhaps a correction would be appropriate?

Thanks
Tsentsan
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jhooper
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:07 pm

This is over Germany, right? So why would the FAA give a damn?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
jahckass
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:08 pm

why would the faa care, this is in Germany on a regional, that cannot make the hop accross the pond.
 
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Fly-K
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:09 pm

I'm sure they didn't disregard any rules, they wouldn't be that stupid.

It's too late now for a correction, with the trip report and everything...

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
EGGD
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:11 pm

uhhh,

Well i've seen this loads of times before. KLM frequently fly with their cockpit doors open on regional flights.

This is just as immature as the newspaper article about Gary Watt's photo  Big grin
 
cointyro
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:12 pm

Konstantin,

You're just looking for attention with this dumb post. It is a good photo, but why would you state "Oh no, the FAA would..." - just trying to stir up attention.

Bleh,
Dan
 
AWspicious
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:13 pm

As far as I know, the FAA has no jurisdiction over German (or any European) airline. Perhaps, you can edit your photo... or, retract (and re-post) it... If you're that concerned.

AW
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
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Fly-K
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:14 pm

True, the FAA comment was a mistake.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
B747-437B
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:16 pm

Don't sweat it. If the pilots broke with policy, then they deserve to have the book thrown at them. If they didn't, then all is cool. You did absolutely nothing other than take a darn good photograph so don't worry yourself about it.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Andreas
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:48 pm

mornin' everybody!

I had myself a good laugh when reading the discussion going on on pprune...and it makes me somewhat nervous to read what so-called professional pilots do have to say about this..are these guys really responsible for the lives of hundreds of people??? ...Good Lord...

Last year my first flight after the sept. 11th events was on sept. 16th, PMI-FRA, ending my holidays, on AeroLloyd. After the big ballyhoo at the airport of Palma I was quite amazed to find the cockpit door wide open and furthermore to hear the pilot inviting all guests aboard to visit the cockpit, if they like to. Dinner, by the way, was served with a regular set of knife, fork and spoon!
The next day I wrote an email to AeroLloyd to inquire if this is the right strategy in these times. Funny enough I received an answer from the marketing office containing the usual blablabla, and another one from the fleet captain (!!!). It was a very long and funny mail about hysterical reactions, customer relations, that seemed quite logical to me, especially since I did not complain about the pilots behaviour but merely asked about strategy.
At some point he asked me if I tried to cut my bread roll with the knife...actually yes, I had done so, or rather I had tried to murder it by amputating most of it to the tray below.

Right...what do I want to say with this lenghty sermon?

1. There's no reason for anybody and certainly not a so-called professional pilot to flame a passenger for making pics aboard an aircraft.

2. There's no reason to flame the pilot of the aircraft, except maybe some hysterical ones, and that is something I do not need in aviation!!!

3. There's no reason to talk about doctoring pics, if you don't know nothing about photography!

4. I don't know if you remember, Konstantin, a few months ago, I asked you about using a digicam...well I can tell you: There's no reason not to use one; I bought a Nikon Coolpix 995 and went to FRA airport..it's downright amazing!!!

Regards

Andreas
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Rick767
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:56 pm

Just one of the reasons I don't go on PPRuNe... certainly the above posts are right the FAA have no jurisdiction over this carrier.

The pilots did not break with policy, it is perfectly normal for European regionals to fly with the door open from time to time.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:42 pm

I can only confirmit. In early August I had a flight from BSL to HAJ with Swiss and I had no problems to visit the cockpit (door was open all the time) and only due to a thunderstorm at HAJ I wasn´t allowed to jump-seat in the cockpit during landing.

I just read the discussion at pprune and I think some are really overreacting. Just wait a few years then it will have calmed down a bit.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
sabenapilot
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:01 pm

BTW, don't want to stir up thing here, but most European airlines have a open door policy, which means that even if the door appears to be safely locked, it isn't; it is simply closed and can be opened just like that.

It greatly enhances the CRM between cabin and cockpit crew you know... and the risks involved are virtually zero.

Besides, what use is there in having a regular cockpit door locked? You can open it in less then half a minute by exercising some force on it!
And even a so-called protected door is b******t! Have they thought about protecting the toilet wall? Who is sitting right in front of the toilet in most planes? Right, the captain, so any idiot firing a gun from the toilet through that wall can knock out the pilot right away! You see, safety stops at the weakest link and there are a lot of week links so it is useless to focus on the door.

This FAA door policy is another example of American hysteria which makes no sense at all! It's much better to have decent security checks at the airports (according to JAA standard allover Europe) than fly around in fortified planes (like the FAA seems to recommend).
 
geert
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:18 pm

Konstantin,

I don't read articles but keep up your good work photo-wise!

Geert
 
Sabena332
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:30 pm

I just read the discussion at PPRuNe and I think that some people there are overreacting. As Rick767 already mentioned in his reply above, it is normal for European regional airlines that the cockpit door is sometimes open, I saw it on a lot of flights during the last months.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
godbless
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:49 pm

Flying DUS-TXL in August I only found out that the cockpit crew was a female because the door was open during flight.

Sabenapilot,
Very well said!

Now I will have a look at PPRuNe...

Max
 
Andreas
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Kirstey: And Why Would That Be As You Said:...

Wed Oct 02, 2002 8:23 pm

...quote "because I'm afraid to say spotters are considered the wart on the backside of aviation by many professionals"?

Interesting!

Though I'm not a spotter but instead just a frequent flyer (and I've heard on several occasions that we are considered to be such a wart, too, but hey, who cares?), I keep asking myself why some guys standing around and taking pics of aircraft or just writing down that they've seen a certain aircraft might be considered to be what you just said!
And who exactly are the professionaly we are talking about? Not the guys from the above mentioned thread on pprunes, I hope. Whoever they are, I really think, there are a lot of worse words for guys posting such a superior bullsh.t!!

Regards

Andreas, waiting for an answer!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:45 pm

If you regret posting it, then why did you post it again?
 
Guest

RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:57 pm

I have to agree on 1 point at least with SAS.....there are an awful lot of silly, childish/immature posts on pprune (as there are here).

Pilots are human beings with emotions, so in that respect, you can't expect them to be 100% sane, integral and understanding.

On the other hand, I'm not a pilot, don't know what it's like to be a pilot, and therefore should think before making comments on subjects I know little about i.e. put up, or shut up.

Whatever, I'm sure the people behind the computer are perfectly decent chaps, but somehow their character changes when it comes to writing posts behind the cloak of anonymity, especially when they become offended.

That's one of the aspects of the internet that I don't like....much easier to fake all sorts of things and completely mislead people.

Fly-K, don't worry. YOU haven't broken any rules, so relax, have a drink and enjoy life.
 
heavymetal
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:38 pm

Actually I think the comment brought up a good point, in a happy accident sorta way...

Is it the European point of view that cockpit intrusion could never happen there? That the US is the target of the terrorists now, and 'we can take a breather?' That ground security is so fool proof that no one could get in a position in flight to compromise the control of the aircraft?

This picture shows trouble waiting to happen. I'm sure there would be a larger, louder outcry from European aviation enthusiasts than here in the States if Europe's cockpits were buttoned up tight and inaccessible, but so be it.

A cockpit assaulter in the US now not only faces reinforced cockpit doors that are always closed but also risks great bodily harm by his fellow passengers should he charge that door. That option is now fairly closed to him in the States. As this picture proves, it isn't in Europe.
 
SQ325
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:57 pm

Cirrus or circus airlines is not LUFTHANSA!
Serioulsy I think not more than 30 or 35% from the active pprune members are professional pilots. Most of them are wanna be`s and nothing more.
 
racko
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:13 am

I think the biggest risk for Fly-K would be that some yellow-press newspaper like "Bild" or "The Sun" sees this photo and the next day we have the headline: "Lufthansa breaks security rules - is flying with Lufthansa the easiest way to commit suicide?" or something like that, you know what I mean. I agree that it isn't really a big deal, but you know the yellow press and what they can make out of something like that. And LH surely wouldn't be happy about an employee bringing them in such a situation. So I can understand why he is concerned...
 
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Fly-K
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:10 am

Well if any newspaper used the photo without my permission, and I would get into trouble, I could still sue them.
But I really don't think it's such a big deal. It's what some make from it that annoys me.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
Marcus
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:15 am

This is just as immature as the newspaper article about Gary Watt's photo
*********************

What photo is this?....is it posted here in this site?
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
NoUFO
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:21 am

I flew on a Cirrus Embraer 145 (or was it a Dash 8?) on September 12, 2001. Yes, only one day after Nine-eleven. If my memory serves me right, the pilots left the cockpit door open - as usual. No big deal if you are flying on such a small aircraft with only a couple of business men/women on board.

Regards,

NoUFO
I support the right to arm bears
 
Sabena332
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:25 am

I do not think that the topic will make it into a tabloid like Bild, a "newspaper" like that is more interested in Prince Williams last dentist appointment or Harrison Ford`s new living room furniture.

But if they steal the picture, K. can sue them for a lot of $$$$$$ (as he wrote above).

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
744rules
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:27 am

excuse me for asking, but who is walter mitty
 
ben
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:00 am

Hysteria and Bild/Sun style trashy reporting is very disruptive.

That's the story with the no-fly zones around UK nuclear power stations... It's not because they were deemed vulnerable to some sort of attack, its because the trashy reporters have taken light planes over them (legally), taken pictures and written provocative reports.

Let's face it, a 2500 ft high exclusion zone isnt going to stop anyone! How long does it take to dive from 2501 ft to 0?? a few seconds??

When I get my first airline job I will do all I can to make sure the door is open during flight - as long as SOPs dont prohibit it of course.

"spotters are considered the wart on the backside of aviation by many professionals. " - what a delightful manner you have, Kirstey.

I have dealings with many aviation professionals who consider PPrune to be a load of tripe.. so it goes both ways.
 
Treg
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:09 am

This picture shows trouble waiting to happen.

Heavymetal, there has been numerous airplane hijackings before and most likely it can happen sometimes again (face it - this is unfortunately unavoidable as long as we are not grounding all airplanes in the world). 9/11 was not the very first time when something like that happened (yes, I admit. The consequences have never been so devastating). But we cannot build a world, where everything is sealed off, locked away (like the Americans are trying to do nowadays - no offence!). This is already little paranoiac.

Look into the statistics. What is the likelihood that the airliner crashes? Relatively small. Now what is the likelihood that it will be used as a terrorist weapon? Much-much smaller! So what should we do? Ban all air traffic?  Confused
 
jcs17
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:09 am

If I remember correctly, on commuter aircraft in the US, the cockpit door wasnt required to be closed until recently.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
rkfast
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 3:57 am

As someone who lives in NY and watched the towers fall and attended a few funerals for some victims from my hometown, I can say that you did absolutely nothing wrong in taking that picture. If the pilots or anyone else has a problem with it, that's THEIR problem.

Personally, it makes me feel good to prove to those who look down their noses at Americans that we aren't the only ones foolish enough to disregard safety concerns in the name of other interests like money and comfort.
 
Chiuaua
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 4:18 am

Indeed the question remains how safe are we really with the locked cockpit doors. If the 9/11 hi-jackers took the time to learn how to fly an airplane, why wouldn't they take a few extra years to make it all the way to an airline employed pilot. Once they get into the locked cockpit with the right person, they have the ability to "park" the aircraft anywhere they want to. Just remember the probable cause of the Egypt Air travelling from NY a few years ago. I don't want to post any great idea's on hi-jacking aircraft, and I also don't want to accuse the Egypt Air pilot as the cause of the crash braught up by the FAA is still rejected by the Egyptian authorities, but just remember that it are the fanatics who are a danger to your flight and not the open cockpit doors.

Greetz, Chiuaua.
 
H. Simpson
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 4:19 am

AGREE, I really love the shot Konstantin.

2 years ago I flew on DL Md-88 and the pilots reamin the door unclosed until cleared for takeoff, obviously my passion on aviation back then was not as much as now
 
Freya
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:45 am

Look at it this way.. some of the posts on 'the other forum' give away far more information likely to be of use to anyone with bad intentions than your photograph. Since the ( extremely boring non event)rejected take off at an airport in Italy thread appears to have run out of steam your photo seems to have attracted the pundits. They'll find something else to interest them soon. Sabenapilot - right on.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:26 pm

I have yet to read anything on that "other forum" that was in the least bit thought out. And people complain about our armchair pilots.

Don't worry about what the Hmm, Hmm (throat clearing sounds) professional pilots say on that site.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Businessflyer
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:49 pm

Fly-K... wouldn't worry about what gets said on Pprune... half of it is complete over-reaction by pilots (well, they claim to be pilots) who cannot stand under direct or perceived criticism. You should read the Pprune thread on journalists exposing security flaws in UK airports - some of the comments from these "professionals" are a complete joke!
 
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Fly-K
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:18 pm

After having seen thing put in perspective, I'm definitetly less worried now - thanks for all of your input and comments!

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
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United_fan
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RE: I Regret Posting This Photo

Sat Oct 05, 2002 10:56 am

I remember when I flew Commutair's Beach 1900D in Oct '99 to IAD,the flimsy door was OPEN the entire flight! I was in row 1 on the rh side and watched everything thru the cockpit windows. Back then I couldn't figure out why,after we touched down,the altimeter still said 300 feet in IAD . I now know why  Big grin
Oh,those were the days.
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