9V-SVA
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SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:42 pm

A SINGAPORE Airlines (SIA) plane turned back to Singapore on Sunday, after hitting turbulent weather shortly after taking off from Changi Airport.

An SIA spokesman said four of the flight's crew and a passenger suffered minor cuts and bruises.

More can be read at the Straits Times Interactive website.

---------------------------------------------

I know this is pretty common, for an aircraft to land after hitting an air pocket. But just after leaving Singapore? That is a bit wierd though. But after all, realising it's an A310....  Big thumbs up

I applaud the pilots for making the right choice this time.

I also wanted to see Khoa's reaction to this one.

9V-SVA
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trickijedi
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 1:32 pm

According to the news report, the pilot turned the plane back so that the "injured could receive medical attention."

It sounds like turbulence did them in pretty good. Sounds pretty serious.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:00 pm

Cuts and bruises, Trickijedi.

9V-SVA
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aviasian
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:49 pm

The pilot's advice for passengers to remain belted when seated goes nowhere with many passengers.

As soon as the seatbelt sign is turned off, one could see people unbuckling themself with an urgency that indicates they are being suffocated. Many also immediately jump out of their seat to stand on the aisle, lean on a seat, talk to someone and try to look very cool and important . . .

Therefore does not surprise me that even when the plane hit turbulence so soon after take-off, several suffered injuries.

It should be noted that the skies over Southeast Asia can be very turbulent . . . but the absolute worst I have experience is over the Bay of Bengal!

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:57 pm

I remember back in 1994 I was flying from DPS-SIN on an A310. We hit an air pocket suddenly without warning during cruise.

9V-SVA
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tsentsan
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:11 pm

I think Mr.BA should be able to remember this...

One night somewhere in 2001, a 777-300 SQ428 to CAI or somewhere departed SIN to wherever its going... then me and Mr.BA were night spotting as usual when I happened to switch back to SQ Ops Frequency, where SQ428 was talking to the SQ Ops people saying that that had an injured crew member with something like a broken leg... and they were proceeding back to WSSS, and soon declared and emergency. Of course they gave all the details of the injured FS but I cant remember. They declared medical emergency, dumped some fuel over M'sia (as usual) and proceeded back onto 20L....
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9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:17 pm

Tsentsan, SQ 428 goes to Dubai, and continues on to Cairo. Due to turbulence I guess.

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mandala499
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:26 pm

KC, you're right about bay of bengal...
Was in SK 767 stuck at FL270/280 due to lack of slots after Afghanistan closed (early 1990s)... We were cruising along on the lower level when suddenly we felt the plane being pushed to the side very rapidly, plane banked, and all the overhead racks opened bags fell... Never seen so many pax help each other in cleaning the plane up after that...

Mandala499
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:59 pm

"I also wanted to see Khoa's reaction to this one."

Well my reaction is that I think you are naive and selective in your criticisms.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:01 pm

Tsentsan,

I think a F/A broke his hand rather than his leg. 9V-SYB that night and I think it's SQ 404 for Dubai.

Never forgot the skies over Indonesia, it's one of the most turnbulent I've ever been through in South east asia too. Even at 35,000 feet.
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Businessflyer
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:13 pm

I am still a bit confused about this. The airplane takes off and soon after hits turbulance injuring enough passengers as to land again immediately. I know there were some very big storm clouds around on Sunday, but is that what caused the problem? Does anybody know anything more specific about this (i.e. height of incident, whether it was cloud turbulance, if the belt-up sign was on or off - all those sorts of things ) - since the usual Straits / Business Times comments are typically vague about this. I just spoke to a friend who writes the transport stuff at the ST and she said that SQ was being very quiet about the whole thing (no real surprise there!).

PS... who is Khoa?!
 
9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:26 pm

Naive and selective, Khoa? I just wanted to see how you would react to a report about your favourite airline's FS getting injured. Looks like you can't believe it.

Let me tell you something Khoa, face it. This type of shit happens at every airline. You can't deny it. Also, stop praising SQ at the expense of other airlines.

Businessflyer, Khoa is Singapore_Air.

9V-SVA
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9V-SPK
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:31 pm

Settle Down 9V-SVA, There's no need to be rude here, afterall it's a place for sharing comments...even you don't like him you can just ignore him, same as Singapore_Air. Afterall both of you are fans of Singapore_Air, just that sometimes the ways of praising are different...

Anyways thanx for letting us know, good to know that SQ did not continue its destination but headed back for Singapore. Wise decision indeed.

Best Regards
 
aviasian
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:38 pm

Gerry: Looks like your SAS B763 had it worse . . . I was flying on a CSA IL-62M on one trip and on a Malaysia Airlines B744 on another . . . both times, breakfast was being served, and both times, you cannot even keep anything on the tray or in the cups. Thankfully, both the IL-62 and the B744 are very sturdy airplanes. The IL-62 gave me great confidence.

Singapore_Air and 9V-SVA: I was worried that this discussion, like all others involving SIA would degenerate into one of this battle that you are now having . . . and it did. I wish it didn't, because it was an otherwise sensible discussion.

Straits Times / Business Times reports about aviation-related incidents are often vague because the reporters don't know any better and therefore don't know what sensible questions to ask. About the airline being quiet, airplanes hitting turbulence enroute is as common as your car's tires hitting a pothole on the road . . . unless something major happens, there is nothing newsworthy about it. I only wish passengers learn to belt up if they have no business in the aisle or elsewhere on the plane, even in seemingly clear weather.

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
Mr.BA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:42 pm

Businessflyer,

I don't think one would ever come to know what happened in the airplane and at what altittude it happened. A lot of factors form 'turbulence', it need not be clouds, it maybe be the sudden change of strong gusty winds, pressure... etc. More likely the plane has just took off. I've seen many cases in my flights that once the plane becomes airborne, people will start unbuckling their seatbelts, not even waiting for the signs to be turned off. Anyway pilots try to get permission to avoid storm clouds or areas prone to storms, heavy turbulence or heavy precipitation.
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9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:44 pm

Normally ST/BT will not report about SIA aircraft problems. For instance, SQ351 was only reported as it had engine trouble. In this case, SQ68 hit the news as an F/A was injured.

I don't usually belt up, but neither do I mill around the aisles either. I'd rather be enjoying my movies on the PTV.

KC, don't be worried, I'm just teaching him what's right. Big grin

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tsentsan
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:48 pm

Bay of Bengal.... isnt that the same place where an SQ A310 did some aerobatics? Think it was 9V-STO right?.. As mentioned by photographer Bailey, Suddenly Turn Over Big grin
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hkgspotter1
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 5:03 pm

Yes the Bay of Bengal thing that never happened according to most at SQ !!
 
9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 5:06 pm

Yah, it was 9V-STO. I think a F/A on this flight sued SIA for loss of flight allowances and won. SIA wasn't too happy about it. Bay of Bengal is very famous for its turbulence. I encountered turbulence quite a few times crossing the bay.


9V-SVA
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Businessflyer
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 5:11 pm

I wouldn't be too harsh on the journalists at the Straits / Business Times. They often do know the questions to ask but due to self-censorship or lack of co-operation on the part of the company in question, they cannot provide sufficient detail (anybody been tracking the Comfort saga!). However, it is true that many people unbuckle soon after take-off. Something that really irritates me is the way that people recline seats when the plane is still climbing (I don't know why, but it really does!). But SQ, like many other airlines including BA, is usually very conscientious in ensuring everybody is buckled up! Anyway, as a matter of idle curiousity... if a pilot is heading towards a big storm cloud what is the procedure - can he/she just fly around it or do they have to request permission, or is this a function of altitude? Any ideas?

PS... what is this about the "Bay of Bengal thing"?
 
Ejazz
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 5:40 pm

9V-STO did happen and it was all pilot induced and covered up as usual.

I won't go into details because I do have a job here after all but had it happened in the US for instance I believe those pilots would be in jail right now.
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tsentsan
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 5:47 pm

Hmmm... actually I've never had the opportunity to fly over the Bay of Bengal... so no comments from me.. :-(...

Sorry abt bringing up the STO thing.
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hkgspotter1
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 5:51 pm

I heard a very interesting story about a reporter that tried to contatct SQ just after this news was leaked. It ened with the reporter getting a letter from the Immigration department of Singapore saying is work was not in the interest of Singapore and if things did not change his Visa would be cancelled !!
 
Singapore 777
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:26 pm

Ahahaha...the bureaucracy of our dear country!

It would be of interest to the people in Singapore to see what kind of pilots SQ are hiring and what has happened to them because I seriously shudder to think that such people may be flying my plane.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:33 pm

I am sorry to say, that if I had to fly SQ, I would not feel comfortable on board. This isn't a dig at any of you here, including our dear friend SQ_boy, but just my personal opinion. I am sure SQ have great service and great pilots, but I also know they have some very questionnable ones too, and flying SQ would be a fairly last resort I am afraid.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:01 pm

THATS THE POINT

They are number one at this that and the other but its because of what people see, the food, the seats, the PTV's etc. More people should be aware of OTHER things that are even more important the what I've just listed.

I would never doubt the service on SQ is Excellent.
 
B747-437B
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 10:37 pm

More people should be aware of OTHER things that are even more important the what I've just listed.

But.... but.... but... they have WISEMEN and KrisWorld.... what else is important? Big grin
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
N79969
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Tue Oct 08, 2002 10:49 pm

Cx_Flyboy,

I am intrigued by your comments about SQ. Especially since you are a pilot. Would you mind elaborating? I'm just curious.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:27 am

Yes,
I would like the same questions answered also. It seems abit strange that the FA's were out of their seats IF the pilots knew Thunder clouds were in the vicinity!
I can tell from just reading the article, that the Seatbelt sign was still on as only ONE pax was injured! That is why i question why the FA's were out of their Jumpseats?
Maybe they were attending to open overhead bins from turbulence? Oh well...We shall never know!

Cheers
Mike
 
Singapore 777
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 9:31 am

It is not unusual to see the FAs out of their seats before the seatbelt signs have been turned off, at least not from my experience.

Some time back, we were taking off from Penang on a MAS Airbus 330-300 and during takeoff, one of the overhead bins opened. An FA got up just as we lifted off and closed it.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 9:40 am

She could be a thrill seeker !!
 
bobcat
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 9:43 am

Just out of curiosity, does the airline(in this case, SQ)
pick up the medical expenses of the injured passengers?
Are the passengers entitled to other compensation?
Does it matter if they had their seatbelts buckled or not?

Thanks!
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:19 am

Bobcat:
SQ will usually pick up the medical expenses of the injured passengers in cases like these. Other "goodwill gestures" may be offered to passengers based on precedents and/or established service recovery guidelines.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:52 pm

N79969, and AirNewZealand,

There have been several incidents that have happened with SQ which were definately avoidable, and ones which really make you question the thinking of some of the crew, and the operating procedures.
The biggest and most obvious is SQ006. Taking a wrong turn in an airport the crew were probably semi-familiar with, especially when the weather and visibility was bad. They should have taken extra care to make sure they were there they thought they were. Lack of airport lighting compounded the problem as well. The crew blatantly ignored the PVD, which accurately tells crews if they are lined up or not. I seem to remember the FO expressing doubt as to their location, but they both did nothing about it, and continued anyway. We all know what happened next.
There was an A340 that lost all hydraulics because one of the crew accidentally switched off the wrong buttons. I don't fly A340s, and am not sure what buttons they were going for (fuel pumps?) but whoever pushed the buttons neither checked himself before pressing all 4 buttons, and never waited for confirmation from the other crew member before going ahead with it.
Then there's the A310 incident over the Bay of Bengal. I can't remember the details but due to crew actions, or inactions, they lost control of the aircraft which then went into a spiral dive along with other exciting manouvres. Fortunately they regained control.
A more minor incident, but they had an A310 over run the runway somewhere. KL was it? Or Penang? Somewhere like that. This shows a resistance to go-around and come in again on a more stable approach rather than just 'go for it and hope for the best'!.
There have been other big CRM issues that I have heard about, and just from what I see, in day to day operations, things which lack airmanship, like highspeed taxying in a crowded apron area, or stopping the aircraft halfway round a tight turn, which puts a lot of stress on the gear and tyres.
You can go to and do a search and you will find lots of pilots complaining about SQ. Bear in mind though that there are a lot of bitter people on that website and their comments do reflect that, but the incidents that are referred to did happen and you can have a good read there.
Having said all that, I have no problems with their service which is very good, as well as all their IFEs and PTVs etc.I also have no doubt that they have some very good pilots, but I don't want to be a passenger on one of the flights where a couple of inadequate pilots are at the controls.
 
9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 1:04 pm

SIA normally picks up the tab for medical expenses.SIA has both unprofessional pilots and good ones. I have had very pleasant pilots on my flight thus far.

9V-SVA
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rendezvous
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:23 pm

I've seen one Sinagpore incident that bothered me.

747-400, approaching Sydney, nothing drastic about the conditions, gentle wind, sunny etc.

Plane intercepts localiser, goes through centreline, turns back, overcorrects, goes through centreline again, and again, then finally, "Singapore XXX going around", followed quickly by the tower, "yeah, thought so".

It just bothered me that they weren't able to intercept the localiser on a calm day!
 
Mr.BA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:27 pm

Was it a tight approach? Shouldn't be autopilot problems...  Smile
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9V-SVA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:45 pm

Heh. A bit crazy eh, not being able to intercept on a calm day.

9V-SVA
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tsentsan
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:52 pm

Sydney's version of calm may not be the Singapore version of calm...

Sydney's version of calm is something like .. runway 34L in use, wind 300 at 15-18 kts....

Well going around all the better! Free tour of the city for the pax.
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Mr.BA
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 7:57 pm

And and no one knows the winds up there...
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N79969
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:53 pm

Cx_Flyboy,

Thanks for your response. It seems odd that SQ's shortcomings would show up in the cockpit and not in some other area like yield management, fleet planning, or something else. SQ has intelligent people running the airline. Any thoughts as to how this problem came into being and why it has not been aggresively addressed? Singapore (the city-state) is pretty "by the book."
 
Singapore 777
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:16 pm

Perhaps because it's too much "by the book" that there are limited areas for creativity and a free-hand in doing things. How these cockpit problems show up: because the pilots aren't given a free-hand at doing things, because management clamps down very hard on them for something which is "out of the book", they have to adhere strictly to company procedures and succumb to management pressures.

Or is it that Singaporean pilots are simply incompetent? We will not know for sure.
 
N79969
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:37 pm

It sounds like the problems that SQ is having are related to pilots deviating from procedure or simply not following procedure. (e.g. not cross-checking instruments)

I certainly disagree that Singaporean pilots are incompetent. CI stinks but BR is good. Cannot say one thing or another about Taiwan. Same thing with KE and OZ.

What I would like to know is why has SQ experienced so many Trent IFSD on their 777? EK also seems to have few as well. But I never about any from AA, DL, CX, TG, BA, or other Trent operators.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:48 pm

I would not say Singaporeans are incompetant. You can't really tarnish a whole race like that. Certain people are incompetant and training procedures, or lack of, may let these people slip through. I have seen many small incidents which really did not give me confidence in SQ. Every airline has it's good and bad pilots....some just have more than their fair share of one over the other!!

Part of the reason why these things are not addressed is the nature of the way things work in Singapore. Incidents like these are often successfully covered up. No-one really hears about it, and the facts are downplayed to make the incident seem minor, rather than try to fix the problem so it never occurs again.

Don't forget also the incident a short while ago where one of their 747-400s taxied across an empty parking stand, nearly hitting a huge lampost and a small building in Taipei. They did hit two tailstands and knocked them over. (They didn't realise any of this). After takeoff, ground staff found the downed tailstands and small bits of aircraft from the 744s wings. ATC informed them and after performing 'inflight checks', they decided to continue. I, and other pilots at CX agree that this was incredibly incompetent and potentially disasterous. The pilots had no way whatsoever of knowing what damage they had to the aircraft, especially a critical area such as the wing. There are no procedures of checking inflight whether they had damage, and the wing could have been about to fall off and they might not have known. Armed with complete ignorance and lack of any information whatsoever apart from the fact they were still flying, they made the highly stupid decision to continue flying to SIN.


As for problems showing up in fleet planning, don't forget they operated 757s, DC10s and now A340s for a short time before realising they had made the wrong purchase decision and then got rid of the whole fleet! They even ordered the MD11 before cancelling. How are those for examples of major fleet planning mistakes?!
 
N79969
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:21 am

The cover-up mentality reminds me of Japan. That is not a good thing at all. I think some of SQ's fleet changes can be attributed to the fact that they are the targets of Airbus and Boeing's most aggressive marketing tactics. They receive offers that they cannot rationally refuse on aircraft and engines. Despite any problems, SQ is still a very prestigious customer for most aerospace companies and these companies make SQ purchases nearly risk free. A big SQ order is a feather in the cap and I think that aerospace companies use it in their marketing to other lower profile customers.

Anyone know about the Trent IFSD issue that I raised?
 
Singapore 777
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:37 am

I believe that most of the problems occur with the Trent 884 variant of the engine (which is actually the Trent 892 with a switch in EEC software right?) which the other operators, like AA, BA, CX or TG do not operate, or am I wrong here?

By right, if it's the same engine, both should have the same problem but it almost only occurs with the 884 and not with the 892 in SIA's fleet.
 
gotAirbus
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:30 am


Buisnessflyer

Anyway, as a matter of idle curiousity... if a pilot is heading towards a big storm cloud what is the procedure - can he/she just fly around it or do they have to request permission, or is this a function of altitude? Any ideas?



We were on an SQ 743 back in '95 (or was it 744? Forgot...) travelling BNE-SIN and to avoid the dark ominous clouds that we see out the window, the pilot banked a few degrees to the right, then left. Also, the curved line on the IFE map was evident that the pilot was...avoiding something!

(gotAirbus?)-(Got Commonality?)-(Have A Nice Flight!)
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N79969
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:37 am

I think it depends on where you are exactly. If you are in controlled airspace, you can request vectors around or away from a storm. If you are in uncontrolled oceanic airspace, I am not certain but I would think the pilot deviate from course as necessary to avoid the weather. Aircraft crossing the oceans are dispatched in a way to ensure plenty of separation.
 
donder10
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:10 am

Well my reaction is that I think you are naive and selective in your criticisms.
I do remember you posted a similar topic to this one about CX.Selective in your postings?
 
docpepz
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RE: SQ68 Emergency Landing

Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:48 pm

Cx flyboy what do you mean by "incidents like this are covered up"

I talked to a few people who work in SIA and asked them if they remembered an incident in the 1990s where pilots didn't really go by the book and nearly crashed the aircraft over the bay of bengal.

They remembered it quite clearly. And there was no big cover up.... Like everyone knew about it kind of thing.

Apparently the pilot involved was subsuquently involved in some road rage case and was sacked. Perhaps Ejazz might want to confirm this.... (or maybe not haha)

Anyway Singaporeans are a very meticulous lot. We're really cautious and we dare not take risks. By and large we are a very 'by the book' people so it surprises me that certain pilots in SQ don't behave as such.