pressclub
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SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:46 pm

Hi Guys,

A good  Smile Belgian newspaper anounced today that SN Brussels Airlines is ready with its expansion plan.

They will add three 130 seat aircraft to the AVRO fleet next summerseason.
It's not clear if it will be Boeing (Classic or Next Generation) or Airbus. Decision will be taken later this month by the Board but three aircraft is confirmed. Unlike the longhaul Airbus 330 operation (wetlease from Birdy), SN Brussels will operate the 130 seaters on their own.

Good news for almost 100 guys and girls in Belgium. Thanks to this fleet expansion SN Brussels is going to hire 30 to 40 first officers (for the Avro's) and almost 60 cabin crew members.

Pressclub


 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:51 pm

Thanks for the info, Pressclub!!

I hope that a good friend of me will find, after one year of being jobless, a job. He finished his pilot studies almost one year ago, and hasn't found a job yet  Sad

Do you know if SNBA is acquiring typerated Avro pilots or not?

Regards,
Frederic (running to my local newspaper shop!! Big grin I know which newspaper I have to buy  Big grin)
 
keesje
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:53 pm

I really hope SNBA will survive the next 2 yrs.

Most important for them IMO is to remain rational and carefull and temper its aspirations to realistic proportions. The situation they are in is still highly critical ...

Slow carefull growth, perhaps some surplus 737-300/-400's from a storage ?



"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 5:19 pm

Just a small message to confirm:
-) the number of FCM to be hired (40 + 60),
-) the number of planes (3)
-)and more importantly, the PROPOSED planes:

2 B737-300
1 B737-400
for summer 2003.

and
3 B737-300
2 B737-400
as from winter 2003.


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Photo © Daems Guy


soon back at display in Brussels and all over Europe!
 
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apuneger
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 6:37 pm

Pressclub:

Thanks for the interesting news (as usual Big grin ). It seems they are taking things really seriously over there, research-wise. They have been studying this expansion for how long now, 5 months or so? Now let's hope that the economy doesn't degrade any further...

About the Airbus - Boeing thing: I can only hope they will take some Boeing aircraft. For some reason, I'm more affiliated with Boeing than with Airbus. And, you have to admit, if they would fly Airbus again, just think of all the headlines. But then again, they should only be looking at the economic performance of the aircraft I think. And if, according to them, Airbus would be better suitable than Boeing, then that's OK by me (yeah right, like I have to give them permission  Smile/happy/getting dizzy ).

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
A330
Posts: 687
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:17 pm

For my sake, I hope they need Airbus pilots too...
Glad to see at least one airline in Belgium is going to expand instead of closing down.
Shiek!
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:46 pm

Anyone knows if they are looking for Avro-typerated pilots or not?

Regards,
Frederic
 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 11:02 pm

It looks like they want some ab-initio (so young not type rated) guys... But I have heard that a discussion is going on about this. Ofcourse ex Sabena pilots not so happy with this.

Pressclub
 
Sabena 690
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Thu Oct 10, 2002 11:05 pm

Thanks!

Yes, apparently BECA is very angry...

Isn't this a bit egoïstic? It is like they don't want to give a chance to new pilots who just finished their studies...

Regards,
Frederic
 
FlyAirbus
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 1:54 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 12:48 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is all about power greed and jealousy.

Wouldn't the most logical choice be to put experienced pilots in the seat of a 737 or Airbus? Pilots ALREADY trained on the aircraft? ...WRONG! ...Not at SNBA.

SN Brussels RJ85/100 pilots are afraid that more "senior pilots" would get the jobs on the "bigger" aircraft, therefore they are going to choose the most senior amongst themselves, to go through 737/Airbus training (at what cost???).

The vacancies left behind on the RJ's would be filled by "younger" pilots. (you wouldn't want more experienced and senior pilots flying smaller aircraft while the "younger" guys fly the bigger jets, would you???)

Isn't SN Brussels short of cash?? Can't they use every cent they've got wisely? Then why go through expensive training costs (millions) while other "experienced" and "trained" ex-Sabena pilots are there, ready to fly? There are so many of them that SNBA can pay them any wage they please.

The unnecessary "rebranding" (new logo); aircraft to be repainted, ticket agencies, signs, counters, letterheads, etc... everything with the name SN Brussels Airlines all need to be redone, also an unnecessary extra cost. For what??

Makes you wonder. WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE DOING???? What a circus!! To think they used to complain about Sabena. That was nothing compared to this. I've said it before, I'm a passenger and whitnessing it for myself eveytime I need to fly. There's never any money for anything but for the above they're willing to "throw away" millions!



 Nuts  Insane
 
kaitak
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:15 am

Other good news for ex-SN pilots; China Airlines apparently hired 90 of them. (Presumably good for CAL as well!)
 
Spitfire
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 2:23 am

There surely will be a deal between unions (and BeCA) and SNBA stating that 10-15% would be young inexperimented pilots, so 10-15% of DAT pilots will "upgrade" to Boeing/Airbus. And the rest, ex-Sabena qualified and experimented pilots. I think that this way is "honnest", does not increase too much the training costs for SNBA and also give a chance to the youngest first job-seekers.
There is also a problem concerning the "seniority list" to be solved.... "Senior" ex-Sabena pilots will never accept to be put at the bottom of this list, behind all the younger DAT/SNBA pilots...

Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 2:33 am

Sorry,... I should have say "unexperienced" and "experienced" pilots... Confused

Spit
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Established02
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:10 am

SN is not only hiring flight crew members, but also other (mostly senior) staff.

http://www.sn-ba.be/fly_jobs.htm
 
sterne82
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 3:39 am

Please my god I wanna see some A319 in SNBA colours...

LOL

Benjamin
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:35 am

Hi FlyAirbus,

I don't mean to put new untrained pilots in 737's or A319's. Of course it is a more logic decision to take type rated pilots.

I am referring to the new Avro first officers they need.

I don't think that there are a lot of type rated Avro pilots on the Belgian market without a job, isn't it? Can anyone give exact figures about this please?

Regards,
Frederic
 
Flying Belgian
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:39 am

I'm sorry to tell you that FLYAIRBUS, but if SNBA would hire some ex-Sabena pilots it's 99.9% sure they will be on the bottom of the seniority list, simply because they have to apply the same principle they applied to the cabin crew according to the unions.

The ex-Sabena cabin crew that were hired back in April are all in the bottom of the seniority list. Even a Senior Purser with 30 years of experience is under a young purser with 1 year experience. If I was to go from DAT to Sabena previuosly I was loosing all my seniority...!!!

Really if something is acquired, if ex-Sabena pilots are hired they will fore sure start at 0 on the list.

But DO understand well that I would be very happy to see ex-Sabena pilots entering our NEW SN Brussels Airlines !!!!  Big grin

F.B
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
pothiabs
Posts: 114
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:01 am

Hire 30 F/Os for 3 aircraft ?

With a crew index of +/- 5, they would only need 15 F/Os.

This indicates and confirms the departure of approx. 30 pilots this month from SNBA, looking for brighter skies. They just need the new pilots to fill up the gap.

And they are just using the (urgent) need for extra pilots as a media stunt, and make it appear as if things are going so well they are expanding.

One should know better...


 
pressclub
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RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:03 am

Kaitak,

No true. CAL want to hire not 90 but approx 20 Belgian pilots. That's the figure on their shortlist. All these guys still have to undergo the medical exam. in Taipei.

 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:10 am

This most probably will be the last time that I get angry over this subject...
I have decided for myself to leave the deadly sick Belgian world of aviation behind and to go and look for the joys of living at FL350 elsewhere where the weather is hot, the pay is good and the companies are managed professionaly!
I am lucky to be able to leave for good here and with no strings attached i will start a new life However, a lot of my colleagues find themselves in situation where they can not kleave Belgium for a long period of time so you might consider this posting for their sake!

The circus that is being pulled off these days at SNBA is hilarious! On one hand they do not have enough money to fly decent airplanes, run a proper marketing campaign, have a ferquent flyer programme that is worth anything etc etc etc and on the other hand they are throwing money away on new liverys, new uniforms and unneseccary training of crews! Tell me, what good is there about new uniforms (everybody receives three I believe!!!!) when you even have not enough money to have a good inflight service!!!!! (this is not ment to be against the FAs, they have to manage it with the tools handed to them by this lousy managment)

But they like to run a good news show! Look at our loadfactors, they have gone up beyond expectation! Not to difficult if you ask me when the Belgian government buys 30% of SNBAs capacity day in day out!
And in order to have the bookks look allright they sold the LHR slots!!!Not only does this proof that a long term policy is totally inexistant because every airlines would do anything to have 8 daily LHR slots! Besides that the money they received for the slots went almost entirely to the curators of SN!!!Bad operation if you ask me!
But they keep on buying luxury cars for the managment etc etc etc....!

Now we have come to the faze where they where able to announce that they would operate MH aircraft! Waaaaw! Whichone....well, we do not know yet! Maybe 737 maybe A320......we will see!
First of all a bigger issue needs to be solved! How to prevent ex-SN pilots from enetring the new SNBA! There actually was a ban demanded by SNBA pilots! No way they would allow SN pilots in "their" company! No way they would allow direct entry captains and if possible they would even prevent FOs from entering on the MH aircraft!
If they wanted they could start on the Avro! Thats it. On the bottom of the seniority list!
Excuse me but this is outrageous! I have been passing my time the last 10 months with applying at other "real" companies and everywhere where I came a position on the seniority list was offered according to the experience I had! Nowhere I had to start on the bottom!
So this is not normal!!!!

Second of all they are facing huge training costs and for what! To feed the pride of certain frustrated pilots who always have been angry because Sabena did not want them! Now is the time to take revenge! Lets ban them....There still more than enough qualified pilots without a job on the Belgian market. But no, FOs RJ will be trained captain on the MH-->New f/os will be trained on RJ and new F/Os will be trained as FO on the MH plane!!!!
Three times a training cost of 2 miljon Bef!!!! 5 crews/airplane*2 pilots/plane*3 planes that makes at least 30 crews......That is 1.5 miljon euros all for nothing and this does not include the costs of crews having to get payed when out of rotation etc etc...

Way to go SNBA, way to go dear colleagues!!!! Keep on messing around like that and I am afraid you will end up like the ones you are trying to ban now....without a job and begging on your knees for a new one!!!

You all have no clue what its like to be without a job and you do not know what you are playing with....

Watch your six........


 
pothiabs
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri May 25, 2001 9:39 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:40 am

Nothing is at six when you are trailing the pack.....  Big grin
 
SN-MD11
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 2:48 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 5:48 pm

SNBA/DAT is full of poor frustrated guys.

Frustrated guys of flying their Avro "Toy Jet". So now they get the opportunity to fly a REAL airplane they jump on it. And we talk of 3 planes.
Forget them, that's all.


 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:53 pm

I don't know what the problem is with you all guys?
(and with that I mean my ex-colleagues of Sabena)

Don't you get the picture then?

The correct situation is this:
SN is clearly planning to hire around 40 pilots for their fleet expansion and wants to do so by hiring new direct entry pilots (no ex-Sabena pilots as previously promised!) and on top of this they want to put them straight on the bigger B737 (which is much cheaper then train them on RJ and a have RJ pilots move to MH).
Your DAT colleagues find all this a bit too arrogant from their management and say: look, eighter you are going to hire pilots direct for the MH fleet and then you take ex-Sabena pilots (as has always been the plan), or if you do not want to hire ex-Sabena pilots (as it seems to be the case) then WE want to have those places by internal promotions and you'll have to hire new guys at the bottom of the list on RJ!

I find this quite logical from the SN Brussels pilots: they still show solidarity towards us and want to give up most if not all of their seniority places on MH for ex-Sabena pilots (mind you SN Brussels Airlines is a new company, and has nothing more to do with Sabena, so no seniority claims can be upheld), but they do not want to do the same gesture for other fresh from the book co-pilots or direct entry captains!

Your colleagues at DAT are NOT trying to keep their Sabena colleagues out of a job at all! However, you must understand that Sabena and the whole group is gone and that you can not keep all your seniority claims as if nothing happened. Try applying at Sobelair... and you'll see what I mean.

 
lumumba
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:16 pm

Hi sabenapilot.
I'm totaly agree with you .
But in the past when the Pilot's had a problem they never askd the other workers advice to star a strike!
And this was not correct so now they have a bad name they will pay it.
Because they are like the Truck drivers they are corporatist(i'm not sure it's the word in English).
Regards
Patrice
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 8:52 pm

And please do not forget that the whole reason why SNBA saw the daylight was to help reduce the dammage done by the demise of Sabena!

I still remember the big words of our so beloved government: in januari 3000 ex sabeniens will find a new home at Snba!!!!! my a**!

I know that there are still some SNBA pilots caring about the faith of jobless colleagues and friends but hey, this is a vast minority! All the rest do not give a shit about the jobless pilots! They only care about their salary, their position and their jobsecurity!
And I still am serious when I say that a lot of them see this as an opportunity to get even with Sabena pilots....frustrated, thats all!
As a proof I will again post here an extract of their intranet....see for yourselves how far the solidaruty goes.....

Concerning the seniority list: the whole thing is based on and made by Sabena pilots!! So there are two options: you maintain the list and you let everybody have the place he or she deserves (including Sabena pilots) or you throw it away and you start a new one based on different criteria!
Now the list is mostly based on results of training at the EAC/BAS/SFA so why should a pilot be denied the place that he deserves!!!!
Get real guys......if it was not for the guys who you are now stabbing in the back you still would be flying DAT like 20 years ago! Maybe you should ask the " anciens " about what it was like back than!!!!!

And please get back on your feet....if it was not or the good sense of the curators you all would be grounded now as well! You know why I still hve not touched a dime of my " sluitingsvergoeding, opzeggingvergoeding etc etc".....because first priority was to let SNBA survive!

Get real......


- Do Sep 05, 2002 12:27 am
Onderwerp: Report of the Ip Meeting of the 04/09/02

CY Status:
The Financial status of the company is still better than foreseen and improving.
The SNBA is consolidating its position.
The introduction of the new MH a/c will be announced officially by the end of September. The type is not defined yet (depending on the marker availability). The number is reduced versus the first rumors...
A minimum of 50% of the new MH pilots will come from Dat.
On the 17th September a press conference over SNBA will take place.

Pilots status:
The pilots salary is not to be increased in the next future...
As the company is doing well the whole SNBA employees may expect a reward of it...
The 6 FO upgrading will undergo a new training program with SN Brussels Airlines Crewroom - Report of the Ip Meeting of the 04/09/02more accent on the captaincy.
Ex SN/Dat BAé 146 pilots are expected to rejoin the SNBA as Dat Captains will upgrade on the new MH a/c.



The problem list seems to be a little short :
What about DEMOTIVATION? LACK OF RESPECT FOR EMPLOYEES?SOCIAL IMPACT ON PILOTS AND THEIR FAMILIES AFTER THE SALARY REDUCTION ? THE LACK OF JOB SECURITY DUE TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NO LOSS OF LICENSE ANYMORE ? DO THEY REALIZE THE OUTCOME OF THIS IF SOMEBODY LOOSES HIS LICENSE OR HAS A MEDICAL PROBLEM, AND I COULD GO ON....
AND BY THE WAY THE PROBLEMS YOU DESCRIBED ARE THE RESULT OF ALL OF THIS, AND THE WHOLE PILOT COMMUNITY HAS ALREADY BEEN PUNISHED...

- Do Sep 05, 2002 5:05 pm
Onderwerp: Re: Report of the Ip Meeting of the 04/09/02

schreef:
A minimum of 50% of the new MH pilots will come from Dat.

And the other 50% from outside? Will they get a position on the sen. list?

Btw what is Ip?
- Do Sep 05, 2002 5:44 pm
Onderwerp:

Dear ,


I agree on your list, but:

Getting us imposed to fly full automatics as the Brits is the last thing I want to hear about...
Let's be smart enough not to give them the reason to impose it...
Let's be professionals !!!

- Do Sep 05, 2002 6:05 pm
Onderwerp:

, for heaven's sake, what is IP?

- Do Sep 05, 2002 8:06 pm
Onderwerp:

Dear ,

Professionalism is something you acquire after years of hard work and motivation, self esteem and unfortunatly with our profession it is very much related to the safety of an airline operation.
This is exactly what I am trying to point out, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR BEING "UNPROFESSIONAL" in this industry and these poeple have created a very UNSAFE environment by treating us the way they did and continue to do...
Just take in consideration what most crew members discuss inside the cockpit : MONEY, JOB STABILITY, FATIGUE, OTHER JOB POSITION, FAMILY STRESS,etc ....
We should be TREATED like professionals by our employer.
There is a great saying: " You feed peanuts, you get monkeys"
Happy Landings

- Vr Sep 06, 2002 5:39 pm
Onderwerp:

Hi all,

it seems to me that we are going back to 'square one'!

Again: the problems that exist today and that have a tendency to decrease the safety HAVE A DEEPER CAUSE! Repressing langauge and dito actions to restore safety have an adverse effect in the current situation (look back at the past).

( I realize you just give us an extract of the reunion so it is not a personal attack)

I guess, what we are saying for about 8 months now, is that we gave our best but we feel pretty much f**cked in the *** (Oops sorry!).

Maybe the situation exist because some of the 102 ex-SN staff have a hidden agenda and feel the should 'do' something for there colleagues stil on the ground (don't know, just a tought).

For the people I mostly fly with I say 'chapeau!!' Since the beginning we kept flying for the pax and our company keeping the punctuality and safety high regardless of how they felt and their opinion.

I guess the stress of the whole situation is taking its toll whether we like it or not ...

This extract from the reunion is very hard to read!
Maybe the management may be lucky that we do not react in the same way as the Air France pilots (yet) but we at least try to exploid all options.

Have a nice week-end

All the best,



- Za Sep 07, 2002 10:52 am
Onderwerp:

Hi,

Motivation is still lacking in the pilot group. So there will not be a salary increase in the (near) future, but we can expect rewards ??!! Is that on paper or is it just another carrot?

People are leaving the company constantly. How many more are going? Who has a cv out with another company? If there are over 80 (out of our 300 pilots) cvs at just one other company then you start wondering what is going on.

For all those that have left, why not redistribute the pay amongst those that are still here? Maybe I can't add and maybe I am just naive, but a lot more people are packing their bags.

From another disgruntled pilot.

- Za Sep 07, 2002 8:43 pm
Onderwerp:

Hi,
IP stands for Instructor Pilot

Hi
Demotivation is omnipresent among pilots and I am not an exception.
Nevertheless I do not accept to let my upset feelings influence the quality of my work in the cockpit.
My demotivation do influence my quantity of work into this company and on my personnal contribution into this company, being into the cockpit or not. Although it doesn't appear immediatly into the company results the pilot proactive participation into the company is an essential key.
I don't come to work to do unprofessional work.
My quantity of work and investment into this company is going to be the image of the way we are (badly) treated and payed for.
Nevertheless in the cockpit you have to stay professional otherwise you and all your colleagues may pay the bill...
I don't want to be obliged to fly full automatics ILS all year around.



- Za Sep 07, 2002 10:57 pm
Onderwerp:

Why no any response from the top now they have fully acces to this forum to give us more information about what's going on? A cancer is growing ... Nobody feels happy anymore while everything seems to go
very good ?

.

Tijden zijn in EET (Europa)
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Where is that solidarity?????????


 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:45 pm

Airbuspilot,

Sorry to say my friend, but I guess you're the one frustrated....

Some remarks may help you to see the light:

Of course SN Brussels Airlines pilots care in the first place about their own jobsecurity! They have every right to, don't they? Would you like to see your company hire hundreds of ex-Sabena pilots just for the purpose of giving them a job asap, with the risk of endangering the future of the whole company with an expansion that is way too big? (we don't want to turn SN into a second Swiss don't we, not after what SR did to Sabena...) A modest expansion like we see now (and have seen over the past months) is the only way... you may not like it, but the times of risk free planning are over, if this doesn't work out and turns profitable soon, all the money will be gone and there will be NOTHING left! No more government to help fill the gaps... And don't count on their shareholders eigther. (still remember how difficult it was to find the money?)

Secondly, can you please forget about your full seniority from Sabena?
You sound just like the Swissair guys who fly at Swiss (former crossair) now...
I know they brought with them their seniority, salary etc, yet they only managed to do so, because they came all at once and right away after the bankruptcy... and even so there is a lot of friction within the new company over the different systems for similar functions... Or do you think it is justifiable that a MB-80 crew at Swiss (former crossair) earns 30% less then a A32F crew (from former Swissair) just because they once had different backgrounds? Something will have to be done soon at Swiss about this and I don't expect a rise for the lowest wages....

3rdly, let's face it, If DAT survived the Sabena bankruptcy and got away on its own, it is not so much thanks to Belgian politicians, so I wouldn't quote from their saying... that's just PR talk! DAT survived in the nick of time because they had a chance to survive thanks to their lower cost structure than Sabena, and this is also partially thanks to the more flexible working conditions of our colleagues at DAT. If you say now: look guys, we tried to stick to our Sabena privileges for as long as possible, but now that we are belly up, we come over and fly at your company with all our previous rights and seniority and take away every carrier oporunity for you for the newt 10 years (because that's what you are actually asking for by demanding your place on the CSL back), then of course you can not expect them to be too happy about this...

I think a good approach would be to see SN as a new company, offering to bring with you certain limited privileges from the past (limited seniority, a job in an identical function as before etc.). Don't forget that SN Brussels Airlines pilots also have done great sacrifices to allow DAT to fly out of the turbulences on its own (even more flexibility, lower wages, less holidays, ...) So if now on top of all that you walk in and arrogantly claim all that is suposedly yours, yes I can understand that some guys overthere say: If that's their attitude towards us, if that's the way they feel about our willing to give them a job on our MH, then I think we deserve better... maybe we should also stick to the few rights we still have and go fly those planes ourselve...

You always have to defend what you have, but once it is lost its time to move ahead my friend. There is no use in living in the past.
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 9:58 pm

You should read my postings better!

Why should I be frustrated. For what Ia m concerned SNBA can live happy ever after because I am not even interested in the company! I have a job and let me tell you that it is much better than Sabena and DAT together!
And i hope that SNBQAwill be able to survive but I can not stand hypocratcy and lyers and apparently that naowadays is the speciality at SNBA!

Second of all, I am not trying to save my seniority! I onmy had two years at Sabena so why should I bother!

Third of all: I am not claiming anything! I am just asking for some solidarity and although you seem to know what that means a lot of your colleagues dont! So please do not take this personally but hey...I know what I know and I see what I see....and what I see is not nice at all! Not only as an ex Sabena pilot but I say this as well for all those ab initio guys who did not have the chance to know the right guy in the right seat to get a job!

It stinks at SNBA! You know it, I know it and its time that everybody knows it!

Besides that...what is your comment about that IP meeting held last month!!! Nice remarks there!!!
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Fri Oct 11, 2002 10:18 pm

Hey, to put something straight here, I am not flying for SN Brussels (I fly abroad) so don't see me as a defender of SN Brussels Airlines' pilots.

What I tried to do was to show that there is still solidarity towards Sabenacrew at SN Brussels Airlines, but that it is no sadomasochistic solidarity as some of our (often elderly) Sabena pilots expect.

I still know of several 45 year old MH pilots who expect to be contacted by SN Brussels Airlines soon simply because they are within the first 20 or so on the old CSL?! And they truly expect to be offered a job which was very similar to the one they had, both in seniority and salary?! Sorry, but this is an attitude which is completely inappropriate and even a prove of disrespect towards our colleagues at SN...

OK, so they got a nice deal thanks to us Sabena-pilots with their CSL in 1996 and yes they got a pay rise, but it was quite easy for us to give that: it didn't cost us a thing as pilots and it even opened up some more carrier options to our pilots. What some of us ask for that in return now is quite a different story...

After the Sabena bankruptcy most if not all of these improvements are gone again and SN-pilots are back at where they were before they entered the Sabena group, so you can not expect extreme concessions from SN Brussels Airlines pilots towards us...

I think the current proposal by which they give up most of their seniority places on the MH is about as fair as can be... Some internal promotions to MH may help ease the pain and by doing so some external fresh from the book F/o's might be hired for the RJ. I think that's fair for all: ex-Sabena employees, SN Brussels Airlines employees and students all the same.
 
User avatar
apuneger
Posts: 2964
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:43 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 12:37 am

I think it's a pitty to see that the close bond that lasted between SN employees has gone apparently. No more unity...

Call me naive or whatever, but all I can say, as an outsider, is that I think it's bad to see that nowadays, more and more ex-SN employees (well, pilots foremost) are really starting to bash at each other  Sad

It's really hard to take an opinion these days without hurting somebody (pilot or whatever), so that's wy I think it would be best for me not to have one (to show my respect to all of you)...Every opinion over here has good and valid points...

Ivan

PS: you can call me lame, stupid or whatever you'd like, but that's fine with me....I just don't see the point in starting some sort of fight with any of you. It will only make things worse...
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:39 am

Hehe Guys, Please.

I thought I started a nice topic here by aouncing the news that new jobs are created in the difficult market we all know since last year... And what's the result? Where does this go to??? Ex Beca against not Beca, ex Sabena against not ex Sabena, young without experience against jobless with experience, not SN Brussels against SN Brussels...

Please guys start another topic. Maybe with the Title: "Pilot bashing in Belgium. All Welcome."
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:48 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 2:13 am

Ivan, couldn't have said it better!

Same counts for Pressclub.

Like Ivan, I also could not believe that under the Sabena family, friendship was dissapearing like snow under the sun, but I will have to believe it.

That Sabena dissapeared made and still makes me very sad, but that you guys are pissing eachother of, in a topic where is stated that additional jobs are created, makes me even angry.

Lucky enough I still have very good memories of my one and only Belgian flag carrier: Sabena.

Look at the date of Pieter his picture:

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Photo © Pieter


Less than a year ago, you guys were forming a circle around SN690, OO-SCZ. 11 months further is nothing visible anymore of the friendship we saw there.

Have especially a very nice evening,
Frederic

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Photo © Josh Rawlin

 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 3:50 am

Now who is being naive here....

A bond between belgian aviation employees....never existed and there never will be such a thing!!

An aviation employee is a personality who only cares about himself and who will do everything to survive and at the same time kill a few others....

Once I was like you all....solidarity was my main goal! Well, I guess I have become a true aviation employee now!!!!

I got screwed at TCW, I got screwed at SNBA, I got screwed at DHL.......And thats only in belgium!
I think this gives me enough reason to be sarcastic and to happely let the bubbles burst that you guys are trying to hang up here!

And believe me, I am not alone who feels this way. I even have 10 or more mails from ab initio jobseekers who have not flown an airplane since two years and even they are disgusted by everything that is happening!

So please, go somewhere else to have a look through those pink glasses of yours!

Pressclub, you know I honour your opinion very much but I do feel a bit of a bias in your postings here...Why dont you write a good article about how all those ab initio pilots are being screwed in the *** by the holy managment of SNBA....Start with a background check of the lucky ones that where accepted lately....I bet you will fiind very interesting links!

 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:38 am


Question for Pressclub,

Since you seem to be the only journalist on this forum, I would like to see if you can confirm following "allegations" if have read on this topic :

-Money from to LHR slots sale went to SN curators
-Belgian government is buying 30 % of every flight

Are these just gossip or is there a truth to these rumors ?

Thanks !

airDD


 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:52 am

I think I can answer your questions correctly form my position:

officially no money was paid for the LHR slots (all slots in Europe are owned by the airport, not the airline and they are attributed to airlines on the basis of the grandfather right, which means that if you use them this season you'll get them back next season), so the sabena receiver did not recover a single eurocent. Besides, slots were transferred to DAT by Sabena the day before the bankruptcy of the later and were sold together with all other assets to SN Air Holding 2 days later, so the receiver can not even uphold any claims on possible revenues coming from asset selling.

The Belgian government does not subsidize SN Brussels Airlines in any illegal way. It has however an intensive agreement with the airline for business class seats on several routes in Europe and throughout Africa as have several other national carriers with their government. (Air France for instance)

I hope this answers your questions?

 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 7:48 am

Slz396....

I do not agree with your first point. Altough I can not be 100% sure ,and I guess few of us can know exactly what happend the last day before the demise of SN, but I am pretty certain that the things I stated before are the truth. I have them from a very very reliable source!
So please, if you can prrof otherwise feel free...I will be happy to hear that the managment at SNBA are not the same dumbasses as the ones who led Sabena to the downfall....

Second point: I have never said anything about illegal support....The only thing I said is that the government is systematically buying 30% of SNBA's capacity! Now this might be legal but it sure gives a wrong picture abouit the loadfactors and income doesnt it?
What do you think what will happen after june 2003 and the elections....?
 
airDD
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:19 pm

to Slz396....

Actually slots are sold on LHR, it is quite naive to think SNBA just have them
away to BA  Big grin : officially they are swaps but the swaps may include monetary compensation ... SNBA got 30 million Pounds for the slots

It guess it is going to be used to set up MH ops.


So the government is buying 30% of the SNBA seats ... not very fair to VEX and other (failed) real private aviation initiatives in Belgium

airDD

 
Flying Belgian
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 12:45 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:22 pm

Air DD, I'm sorry guy, but once again I don't agree with the way you react.

If SNBA negociated those slots it's simply because LHR is NOT an interesting route for a carrier such as SNBA. From an operational point of view (delays, slots restictions, aircrafts mobilized per hour) , and from a commercial point of view (so far 80% of the Y seats on those flights are sold by VEX).

The budget of SNBA is really really tight and I applause the way both Mr Kuypers and Davies reacted on this issue. We cannot afford to lose time and money on that route, simply. Now, the way the slots were handed over, who cares ??? As long as it's a profitable operations for all. And having BA as partner isn't more interesting than Armenian or BerlinJet ??

Now you come with the "100% private initiatives". Let me tell you the the VG/DELESY joke is sponsored by the Flemish Ministry of Economics Affairs (+the Antwerp politics lobbies). Up to a small amount I assume but they are still involved. And VEX ??? Didn't they make SN & SNBA lose money ?? I'm sure the SNBA board will be more communicative on this subject from April 2003...

See U all,


F.B
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:26 pm

I really do not see the point why you are getting so upset FB!!

Why is it that you are fencing for SNBA so fiercly?

Try to bring on some solid argument and maybe, just maybe, that will prove you are right...
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:14 pm

What I replied to your 2 questions is 100% correct Air DD.
Believe me, I know what I talk about... ask pressclub for more info on how accurate my information generally is.

Still everybody is free to believe what they want, Airbuspilot.
If you really think the government is wasting money on buying 30% of SN's seatcapacity, then be free to do so, because if I tell you the correct number is around 4,1% would you believe me? Probably not... Oh well, forget the decimal and you'll get 41% and I am sure all you guys will immediately take this figure over as the correct one. See what I mean... you simply expect it to be true...

Same goes for the slots.
SN Brussels Airlines does not receive a cent for those slots.
Why swap them then? Because SN Brussels Airlines gets in return a long term codeshare with BA on all British destinations (including 3 new ones) and because contrary to most code share agreements BA agreed to cover all costs for this operation, whereas normally each operating carrier has to pay for their own flights.... In short: flights operated by SN Brussels on a joint flightnumber with BA will no longer result in landing fees, handling fees, passenger fees, airway fees etc for SN.... it will all be invoiced to BA.
It's a very good deal for all, because no cash money in in the house for the Sabena receiver or other lawyers should any Sabena creditor want to start a legal battle to get his hands on this money, and BA immediately get new slots at LHR and only has to pay for it progressively later (when financial results improve).

Anyway this is the last time I reply to any of these, because I feel it is totally useless, I can not compete with claims like: 'I know from a friend who flies at SN that blablabla'. Since when do sales managers, pursers or pilots sign contracts? Only a handful of people ever see the contents of these contracts...

 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:27 pm

No need on becomming snobbish SLZ.....Just having a discussion here!

Everybody has the right to an opinion like you said yourself and the only thing you can do is defend what you believe!

Your thing about 4.1% becomming 41% etc....rather childish wouldnt you agree? I believe what I ahve been told by people who I believe! And they swear by 30% so hey.....

And its not a friend who flies at SN blabalabla........you should not underestimate others so much!
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 8:57 pm

About the government buying seats on SNBA a/c, it should be quite simple to know if it's realy a number around 4% or 30%. Just ask some SNBA pilots to make a survey on their computers : cross-check the foreseen booking for some random flights with the actual number of pax they have on board. This could be a very good approximation, less the usual number of no-show pax and the last minute one.
Spitfire
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
groholsky
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 1:39 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:59 pm

Sabena 690,

just to come back on your picture about the last day, and the comment you put : "Less than a year ago, you guys were forming a circle around SN690, OO-SCZ. 11 months further is nothing visible anymore of the friendship we saw there."

I can tell you that that day, few DAT people were there and I can even tell you (I was there) that the few walking with us, finally left because (and I will use their own words) " we have nothing to do here...We guys from DAT"

Look for the ridiculous in everything, and you will find it !!!

Ciao





 
luchtzak
Posts: 456
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2001 1:03 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sun Oct 13, 2002 2:56 am

Spitfire,

if I calculate for my flight today 2% didn't show up for the outbound and 1% didn't show up for the inbound. I'm quite convinced that the booking-figures are most likely to be the correct ones. An average of 1.5% no-shows is rather satisfactory. If some people here say that the Belgian Government is booking 30% seats on our flights this means that if we receive a booking of -let's say- 80 pax only 56 show up?!? Strange... I must say. In the past months I never had any irregularities like this one. Maybe I should ask my colleagues? Also I have never heard in Belgian/European media that this kind of actions happen...

And for people who don't believe there is no bond between Belgian aviation colleagues:their are only a few people who aren't collegial -I agree-, all the rest of my colleagues are really feeling sad about all the colleagues who lost their jobs and we are very happy that from-time-to-time new/former colleagues join our forces at SN BA!

A word for Airbuspilot,

give us your reliable (?) sources if you believe you have the correct information. You owe us.


greetings to you all!

Luchtzak



 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:16 am

Guys

This topic is really spoiled now with some stories and rumours too nice to be checked if they are correct or not...





 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:21 am



I confirm SLZ's info for 100 pct.



 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: SN Brussels Hires 100 Flight Crew Members And 3 MH

Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:27 am

Pressclub,

at least you could try to check if they are right or not...You are one of the few people with the pmeanings to check everything.....

Luchtzak,

I do not think I owe anybody anything! I am just trying to make a statement here and maybe I am hoping that somebody here has the knowledge to prove otherwise...Untill now no prove delivered!
I know you have a feeling of solidarity...unfortunately you are one of the few who is seriouis about that! At most others that feeling does not last very long....

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