TR
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What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:22 pm

According to the text below the photo this bird was captured today (Oct 10) at Copenhagen. Anyone with info on the purpose of the visit?

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Photo © Europix

 
IndianGuy
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:29 pm

All AI 747-200 are now used for VVIP transport. The Indian PM is in Copenhagen to attend a Indo-EU summit.

Roy
 
ammunition
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:13 pm

wouldnt it be cheaper for AI to replace the 742 with a A310 for another route for that day, and use that instead of the massive 742- just to transport him and his chumms to CPH?

Or do they require the extra MTOW to take some chicken tikka massala or chicken vindaloo, a goll gappa walla and the chai walla...... and whatever else they take with them! Its rediculous.

Seems dumb to me..... its not just him, a lot of people around the world doing similar stuff..(not exactly same circumstances but similar in some ways- the queen using tax payers (which could be better spent in many many ways- hospitals, on depraved kids e.t.c.e.t.c.) money on her massive transportation costs... though i think a halt has been put to that)... so many poor people in india and all the prime minister cares about is going to europe in the biggest plane they have just to haul some A$$. HELLO.......... video conferencing!!!!!!!
Every little helps in my view!
I just hope it is worth it!..... at least for the sakes of those dying everyday on the streets of delhi.... mumbai, and on virtually every other corner of that country.

Its sad! Maybe im just fuming cos its that time of the month..... maybe not...(i am male) i know he is going for diplomatic reasons.. maybe to improve trade relations between what are 2 of the largest industrial powers of the world e.t.c. but it seems such a waste to do it in the way he did!

I am deeply ashamed!
Saint Augustine- 'The world is a book and those who do not travel, read only 1 page'
 
B747-437B
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:37 pm

Some corrections and clarifications :

ALL 742s are not used for VVIP transport. Currently only VT-EFU is assigned to that role. VT-EGA, EGB and EGC are still flying line rotations. Once the PM is off his current travel spree, EFU will also go back to line flying.

The reason they use a 747 instead of an Airbus is threefold. First, the 747 has better performance for longhaul flying than the Airbus does. Second, it allows them to transport the press corps on the same aircraft rather than fly a second one for them. Third, the Indian Air Force (who technically are the service who charters these from Air India to provide the VVIP transportation) is more comfortable using a 4 engined aircraft than a 2 engined one for overwater routes. For regional flying, the IAF has a fleet of VIP configured 737s that are used.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
TKMCE
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:48 am

Sean
Accept your reasons 1 and 3, but a 747 for carrying enough press corps?
Guess the lesser of them the better (you should have better put it as all the government hanger ons). After all, I guess the media can afford to pay their own way to cover the PM! Or is the PM in so desperate need of publicity?
I thought he is doing quite a good job without having to cart the press along for image building
Rajeev
 
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yyz717
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:56 am

maybe to improve trade relations between what are 2 of the largest industrial powers of the world e.t.c.

What does this have to do with India????

It's amazing the way leaders of 3rd world countries can just commandeer a commercial aircraft of their national airline and/or procure an expensive personal transport for personal uses, while millions of his countrymen live in abject poverty.

Here in Canada (ranked 3rd by the UN in worldwide quality of life), there was an absolute storm of protest over the RETENTION of an A310 for the PM's use and a recent order for a Canadair Challenger.

Shouldn't the Indian PM stay home and try to solve the many problems of India instead of globe trotting at tax-payer expense?????


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jaysit
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:53 am

As the head of the Indian government, one of the duties of the Indian Prime Minister is diplomatic. This includes visiting foreign heads of states for issues related to trade, foreign policy, etc etc etc. Trade between the EU and India has skyrocketed in the past 10 years. If an expanding economy resulting from expanding trade doesn't alleviate poverty in India in the near future, then I don't know what will. so, I guess the Indian PM was doing his bit to alleviate poverty.

(And as a matter of fact, India, inspite of its poverty is one of the larger economic powers in the world, and if it manages to keep up its current 6% economic growth rate (or increase it to 9%) is well on its way to becoming a formidable market.)

By your logic, Yyz, I guess the Indian PM should be riding on the back of a cow to Copenhagen.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TKMCE
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 5:18 pm

I guess Tony Blair does far more globe trotting (basically to repeat what Bush says in the first place) and I guess that is also at Tax Payers Expense.
Anyway, to come back to the point in question.
As YYZ says, is it really required to comandeer an aircraft from the AI fleet (and they dont have that many) just to accomodate these globe trottings many of which are of no direct benefit to the ordinary citizen back home.?
Cant it be far more economical to say ,block off the entire business and first class (ofcourse a few pax might be inconveneicned, but I guess it is better than inconveniencing a whole flight load of pax) ? You may say safety, but if you say that carrying a PM on a scheduled commercial flight is unsafe, then it is as good as admitting that the ordinary pax on an Air India flight is being left to less than complete safety screening?
Another point to note here is that, as far as I know another aircraft has to be put on reserve. (so even further depletion!). And as it happened a few years back, when both the PM and the President decided to jet set at the same time. then it is chaos for Air India and their pax (most of whom are on restricted tickets which AI is not in any hurry to endorse), which is some thing I guess Air India can well do without.
Thinking of that, it is going to be interesting if you compare the losses incurred by Air India on non availabilty of aircraft to these "VIP trips" to the cost of purchasing and maining one of these long range private jets like the BBJ.You might find it better for both the tax payer and Air India to adapt such a course if our big politicians do insist on travelling on their voyages on EXCLUSIVE comfort.
Rajeev
 
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:11 pm

Yyz717,

I would say that it is the Canadian public that is a little odd in complaining about your PM's ride. Perhaps a 742 is a bit much for a PM but Air India is still an extension of the Indian government. Until it is fully privatized (never?), I think the government can commandeer aircraft for VIP purposes.

I don't think adequate security (the level required for a head of state) can be provided on scheduled airline service.
 
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yyz717
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:06 am

I don't think adequate security (the level required for a head of state) can be provided on scheduled airline service.

Well, a former Canadian PM used to fly scheduled service across the country while in office.

By your logic, Yyz, I guess the Indian PM should be riding on the back of a cow to Copenhagen.

Well, since 99.99% of Indians will see no benefit from his globetrotting & junkets, perhaps he should stay home and solve some local problems. If he has to travel, perhaps he could fly to Pakistan and try to solve regional tensions.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
N79969
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:15 am

There was a time when heads of state probably could safely travel on commercial service. It's gone and that sucks.

I'm not sure if any citizen of any country ever benefits from their leader's trips abroad in any measurable, meaningful way. That does not mean that they should not go and represent their country. If that were the standard, the Canadian PM would be constantly in Quebec making sure they don't try to secede every time they get bored. Or President Bush should cancel his meetings abroad to deal with whacked-out snipers.



 
TKMCE
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:37 am

There was a time not so long ago when King Wangchuk of Bhutan hitched a lift on the Indian PMs 747 to the SAARC summit. Druk Air had only Bae 146s, so the gentleman took this option rather than chartering a 747 for the trip!
(nor comandeer the Druk Aircraft either- they have i think 2 a/c).
That is humility and national pride in perspective!
Bhutan didnt have much to gain from the conference but as one of the 7 member nations he could not offend the host either!
Good Practical Thinking.
NB: I am not suggesting that the Indian PM take a lift for his meetings, but isnt it high time that someone takes a look at this VIP fleet of the airforce and go in for maybe a medium to long haul a/c for our politicians use rather than dipping into Air India.
Rajeev
 
jaysit
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Wed Oct 16, 2002 5:20 am

Given that the size of the Indian middle class has increased tremendously since the liberalization of the Indian economy 12 years ago, I would say that a pretty good number of Indians do benefit from official State visits overseas that result in increased trade. Besides a comparison of the Indian and the Canadian PM is odious. The Canadian PM probably isn't high on the hit list of sundry terrorists, so a commercial flight is indeed possible for him.

Whether or not the Indian PM needs a whole Boeing 747 is a different story. He could do it on an A310, but my understanding is that the Boeing 742s of Air India do a lot of idle sitting around on the tarmac for most of the part while the A310s are the workhorse of the fleet.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Wed Oct 16, 2002 11:31 am

Vajpayee wasnt going to CPH for a shopping trip or to visit his son/relative! Nor was he going there to fulfil his duties as pet poodle to a superpower like some of the *other* politicians mentioned. He was going there to sign business deals and improve diplomatic relations in which he did a great job!

The cost of the trip to the Indian exchequer would not cross a crore or mebbe 2.

Deals worth 3500 crores are expected to be signed, apart from deals further cementing our relations with the EU.

So on the whole is it worth it? You bet!

AS for using a 747, well that is the aircraft that is available, and which satisifes the requirement. The 744's and 310's are all flying mainline routes for AI and it will be difficult for AI to pull out aircraft from there.

-Roy
 
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yyz717
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:02 pm

my understanding is that the Boeing 742s of Air India do a lot of idle sitting around on the tarmac for most of the part

AS for using a 747, well that is the aircraft that is available, and which satisifes the requirement. The 744's and 310's are all flying mainline routes for AI and it will be difficult for AI to pull out aircraft from there.

No wonder Air-India is inefficient.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
TKMCE
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RE: What Is Air India 742 Doing At CPH Today?

Wed Oct 16, 2002 6:36 pm

Well if the 742s are lying around idle, I think Air India should donate them (like they did their AB3s to Ariana) to the Indian Airforce.Yeah, and may be change the rules al ittle that even assorted ministers can use them for their various missions abroad (with the full complement of free loaders) so that will help the 742s utlislisation rates also.
Cheers
TK

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