D-AIFB
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LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:57 pm

LH is going to start up a daily FRA - Portland PDX nonstop service with A343. Flights will begin end of March / early April 2003.

LH 468 FRA PDX 1030 1155 A343
LH 469 PDX FRA 1345 0855+1 A343


Congratulations to Portland!
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:23 pm


Amazing. I thought they'd start service to Seattle but ok, we'll see how the Portland service turns out.

All the best to Lufthansa.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:34 pm

First flight will be Monday, March 31st, 2003 according to the Computer Reservation Systems (CRS).

this is good news for both LH and PDX, I hope this flight will do well

SailorOrion
 
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Fly-K
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:12 pm

I guess the reasoning was better to be the first European carrier in PDX than the fourth in SEA.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
scottysair
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:43 pm

Fly-K,

This is great to hear for LH were start opreate new nonstop from FRA-PDX by first-ever. And let's see how is they were doing for the new flight out of FRA to PDX. How much with the cities were serving by LH nonstop from FRA to MIA, ATL, DFW, IAH, IAD, JFK, BOS, ORD, DTW, PHX, DEN, LAX, EWR and SFO, too. Now, for the this addition by PDX with the 14th cities into USA. So anyway, I'd will talk with you again soon!!

Kind Regards,

Scott W.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:49 pm

hey, i think LH is working on to become the best example for the idea that hub'n'spoke is not the strategy of the future of air transport.

i wonder how long they will do these nice point to point things across the pond with thirsty fourholers...

dont they need 777's to do the job best?

and what are the A380's good for if that's the strategy?

thats off topic anyways...

cheers, r.

 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:06 am

Actually you´re off the track Rabenschlag. Do you think that a FRA-PDX service would be feasible without FRA being LH´s main hub? I seriously doubt it as the local traffic from FRA is just too small for this destination and basically all long-hauls rely on feeder/conncetion traffic.

Lufthansa has choosen the A340/B747 combo for Atlantic ops as it serves them best - and in future we will see the A333s join in, too. I really don´t see how the B777 fits into this scheme - their job is don by the A340-300s and soon the A340-600s.

The A380s are destined for routes such as FRA-NRT, FRA-HKG, FRA-SIN, FRA-JFK, FRA-LAX, FRA-SFO, FRA-MEX, all the big ones where LH has already capacity problems today.

Anyway - quite a clever choice on LH´s side, they are the first european carrier to serve PDX which should add a bonus onboth sides: additional paxfrom PDX fed into LH´s Europe network and european passangers flying with LH because it is the fastest way to get to PDX.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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desertjets
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:19 am

I find PDX to be an additional choice... especially when PHX is not back at a daily frequency yet. There really must be some pent up demand in the Pacific Northwest for service. Also I wonder if the UAX Brasilias into PDX from the smaller cities in Oregon and Washington will be codeshared with LH. Certainly it couldn't hurt.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
searpqx
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:41 am

This is great news for PDX, though I would've loved to see a LH 340 here at SeaTac. I wonder about the local feed though. While UA has a significant presence (#2 carrier, barely beating out WN), to date it's almost all O&D for them. Because of AS's relationship with NW (and to a lesser extent AA/BA), all of their feed is geared towards SEA and the flight on NW to AMS (and again, to a lesser extent, LHR on BA). I'm wondering/guessing that there is a large local O&D market to Europe in the general PDX area.

Whatever the case, I'm sure LH has done their homework. Good luck to them and PDX International!

Duane
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:47 am

When I saw a certain Miles&More promotion campaign last week, I knew it wouldn´t be SEA:

Double miles on CPH-SEA flights - this means LH is quite comfortable with SAS being the Europe-SEA airline.

Daniel Smile
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:00 am


Is it correct, that LH will most likely make it's money on this flight in business class and to a lesser extent in economy ?
I can't image that too many German tourists will fly to PDX when SFO and YVR are rather "close".
Any opinions ?

Regards,
B737-700
 
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Fly-K
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:08 am

I heard PDX has an excellent cargo potential - see the cargo flights of Korean and Air China. Probably also DaimlerChrysler will be delighted (Freightliner).

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
searpqx
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:20 am

Ahhh, I'd forgotten all about Freightliner. And yes cargo is a biggie. It's big at all the west coast cities, and SEA is about maxed out for cargo space. This makes more and more sense all the time.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
scottysair
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:39 am

Hey Guys,

I do forgot as for the one more cities is PHL with the 15th US cities by nonstop from FRA, too. There it is with the destination cities is: ATL, BOS, DEN, DTW, DFW, EWR, IAD, IAH, LAX, MIA, ORD, PDX, PHL, PHX, and SFO, too. So that is it as for the new nonstop flight into PDX with Airbus A340. I'm giving it up with the whole US cities were nonstop flight out of FRA to the 15th US cities. Isn't that is something was great to hear for the new routes. Let's see how is they were doing by early April 2003. Well, later!!!

Regards,

Scott W.
 
B747-437B
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:07 am

Anyone taking odds to see how long this one will last? I'll give it 6 months.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:16 am

There actually exists quite a large expatriate German community in Greater Portland and southwestern Washington. Large enough to support a daily A340? We will see.

Delta is bidding on the ground handling contract.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
srbmod
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:19 am

PDX has been without any international service at all since Delta moved its' flights to Japan to LAX. It really has been too long for PDX to be without any nonstop service to Europe. I think that if LH is successful on this route, another European carrier will probably start service there as well, my guess is Virgin Atlantic or British Airways, maybe not a daily service but maybe as a 3X or 4X service. Although PDX is close enough to SEA and SFO in terms of international airports, they are far enough for both to perhaps provide quality feeds for pax and cargo.
 
doug_or
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:37 am

is the city offering anything? i know the mayors office hsa said it would "work towards" convinceing international carriers to come to PDX after delta pulled out their international ops. At any rate, I'm happy.

GO PDX

Doug
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:55 am

If LH fills up the cargo hold and about 80% of the C class seats, the flight is usually profitable. And considering the PDX is quite a big cargo airport and there is quite some business there, I think the flight will work out well.

SailorOrion
 
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:21 am

There actually exists quite a large expatriate German community in Greater Portland and southwestern Washington.

Expatriates? Paging David Beebe to the white courtesy phone.... Big grin
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
godbless
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:20 am

hey, i think LH is working on to become the best example for the idea that hub'n'spoke is not the strategy of the future of air transport.

That would mean LH would have to start this flight from DUS, HAM, TXL, LEJ,... and not from FRA (or MUC). There will always be a large hub on one side of a longhaul with maybe a few exceptions (DUS-EWR) but they will always have a hard life like TXL-IAD had until it got killed by 9/11.

Max
 
Trvlr
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:36 am

Congratulations to PDX! Luckily, this airport benefits the most from the original contention cities (SEA, PDX, SAN, STL, MSP, etc) due to its current lack of transatlantic service.

I am fairly confident this will be a profitable flight for LH. I hope to see them in SAN sometime in the next few years!

Aaron G.
 
MIA777
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:45 am

I don't really undetstand the point of this flight. Regardless of how "big" the German population in Portland is, are all the seats really going to fill up? It just seems like such an odd flight. Plus...if someone from Portland would rather go to say....TLV on ElAl...wouldn't they rather connect in an American city...JFK?? Flipping it around...what German would want to go to Portland. That flight cannot sell out regardless of how many Germans are in Portland....just my thoughts....

MIA777
MIA777
 
Kohflot
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:26 am

I agree.. I'd be surprised to see LH's FRA-PDX last more than 6 months to a year. What Boeing or Airbus need to develop is an aircraft that can carry 150 people on two engines about 6500 miles. Then we'd see these long/thin routes last..
Ask why..
 
BA
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:35 am

I've heard the city made some sort of guarantee with them. If the flight doesn't meet expectations, the city pays Lufthansa.

I'm undecided whether the route will do well or not. I think it might have a chance after rethinking it. After all, Portland does have 2.4 million people and this will be there only connection to Europe.

If it doesn't do too well, then maybe a downgrade such as a reduction in frequency will be necessary. Then hopefully it will succeed.

I wish the route the best of luck.

Portland is an interesting city, and a gateway to one of the most beautiful coast lines in the world, the amazing Oregon Coast.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ctbarnes
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:43 am

Go figure...

Naturally I'm a little disappointed LH didn't choose SEA, but then I'm prejudiced. Probably had something to do with SK's SEA-CPH flight, and LH not wanting to compete against another Star Alliance member.

It will be interesting to see whether this flight makes money or not. In the current economic downturn people aren't traveling, and if they are they are less inclined to fly in the premium cabins. If they can make up the difference in the cargo hold as someone else mentioned above, and hold out until the economy picks up again, they may have a chance.

In the meantime, let's hope PDX has sorted out its INS problems, otherwise we could be seeing shades of the "de-Portland" syndrome that so irked Delta.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:49 am

PDX INS problems have been sorted out for over a year. no problems.
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:25 pm

Thats great to hear! Hope they do well with the new route!

-Dmitry
 
seb146
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:38 pm

It seems that PDX is the more logical choice for this route. There are fewer airlines around here, so the on-time performace should be good and BA, NW, and SAS all have flights from SEA to Europe, but the closest city that LH serves is YVR. Going across that many borders to get to FRA seems silly to me. Also with PH starting non stop service PDX-TUC and AS starting service to DEN, that just adds to the pax base.

PDX also has cargo service from Cargolux.

And besides, it is about time we had one of the big jets here! A-340! WOO-HOO! Take that SEA! (j/k)
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
N79969
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:57 am

I wonder if this is a case of underutilized aircraft being put to work for an experiment. They might also be experimenting to see if they can poach a little of the SEA-Europe while having a monopoly of sorts at PDX. UA operates SEA-PDX and they have antitrust immunity. UA does not operate SEA-FRA. And if the city of Portland is assuming the risk, LH has nothing to lose and something to gain.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 2:45 am

Incentives have not been revealed yet but the media is reporting that previous discussion of incentives included:
"Port officials have said they are willing to discount landing fees and terminal rent, among other incentives, for Lufthansa. State tourism officials also proposed asking the state for money to promote tourism between Oregon and Germany. "


The media is also reporting that there is a travel bank with commitments nearing $10 million in the first year including:
"Beaverton-based Nike committed $2 million of its travel budget. Lufthansa also viewed Adidas USA and Freightliner, both owned by German companies, as significant potential customers.

Freightliner staff, particularly engineers and purchasing agents, travel to Germany monthly to exchange ideas with European colleagues and to visit Freightliner's parent operations, DaimlerChrysler in Stuttgart. Schmueckle said he travels to Germany 15 times a year. Often they catch connecting flights through Vancouver, B.C., San Francisco, Denver or Chicago, company officials said. "


http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/front_page/1035374162245040.xml

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 2:49 am


N79969, your first statement is definitely not the case. Lufthansa is acquiring more and more aircrafts (even leasing them) because they are very short of longhaul aircrfats at this time.
 
N79969
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 3:18 am

I was thinking of a situation in which an aircraft is underutilized because of some scheduling aberration not because of actual fleet surplus. For example, QF is buying more 744s even though they have long down times at places like LHR. (I read here I think that QF is doing intra-Europe charters during those times)
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 3:28 am


Ok, I see oyur point but I still don't think so as the flight is too long and it's a daily rotation.
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:54 am

Hmmm....out of 10 people I wonder how many people would know what state Portland is in. I really think SEA would have been the best choice but, obviously SK and BA were a factor. PDX has no international service, which makes this route questionable at best. I say LH downgrades PDX to 3x or 4x weekly within a year. I do think that my hometown airport MIGHT work also but not on a daily basis. Along w/ Portland and every other metro area over 2 million people we have a large German population also.
Thx,
TWA4EVER

P.S.-I cannot reveal my sources but I have heard that STL-LGW will go back to daily in the spring  Big thumbs up. Helps to have a neighbor that works for youre hometown hub carrier.  Smile
 
United777
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:55 am

WOW this is suprising!

Good to see a international airline going to PDX though.

I think because Portland doesn't yet have a European airline or almost no international airlines they chose PDX.
 
N79969
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:01 am

I am surprised as well. They must be dedicating 2 aircraft at least for a daily service. Either they really believe that this will pan out or PDX is providing them with some really good incentives.
 
flashmeister
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:01 am

As a (new) Portlander, I'm sort of offended at the comments that the flight won't do well. Portland is a large city with lots of connections to German companies. We definitely have a demand for travel to Frankfurt and European destinations in general.

Most people think of Portland as some sleepy podunk wide spot in the road. We're not that at all.
 
MAH4546
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:18 am

The flight will be a hit and likely do very well, IMO.

P.S.-I cannot reveal my sources but I have heard that STL-LGW will go back to daily in the spring

Sources? This is publicly known fact.
a.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:25 am

Not gonna work......unless there is a big German-based firm in Portland or a Portland-based firm in Germany that would provide the base for such a service. They should have gone for Seattle instead. Bigger market, larger area pull, and more diversified business...

What's next? Alitalia introducing a nonstop from Tucson to Milan? C'mon LH!
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:25 am

My neighbor acted like it was something that hadnt been announced yet .....When I talked to him the first time he didnt mention it going back to daily in the spring.
 
Guest

RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:35 am

Not one but two very large German firms have massive facilities in the PDX area plus Nike and Intel.
 
BA
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:46 am

ContinentalEWR,

I'm sure you know more about the PDX market than Lufthansa, right? You spent the past couple years evaluating the market and have made your conclusion, right?

 Insane
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:51 am

Seb146,

Alaska Airlines has no plans to takeover PDX-DEN from Horizon.

Alaska expressed several times that there are no plans for growth from PDX. All PDX growth will be done by Horizon for the coming future.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Horizon drops PDX-DEN. They're having trouble competing with the big stuff that United and Frontier are flying in. Also, both United and Frontier have more frequencies which makes them an even more attractive choice.

On average, I've heard each PDX-DEN flight goes out with 35-40 people. That's not much on a 70-seat CRJ700.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
KAL_LM
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 2:08 pm

That is really good news, can't wait to see something other than 737 size aircraft coming through here...excepting KE, CV and now Air China (if that ever gets off the ground...there have been "issues").

It does seem like a good choice though. Why go into an overpopulated market (SEA) when you can go somewhere else that has growth potential (PDX) especially if the city is willing to cover the bets.

And yes, we're more than a pit stop between SEA and SFO as some like to believe...

regards,
Tom
is that a light at the end of the tunnel or just a train?
 
RJNUT
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:33 pm

LH could also do some marketing with Horizon for feed..a code share would not be required , but they could market favorable and competitive 'thru' fares from connecting cities..You would be surprised at how many AA customers connect to BA in ORD without a code share, so it could be done.. I like the idea of this new serivce..I had always hoped MCI coudldget the same type of deal with European flights, but that wont ever happen unless they develope a 35 seat RJ that can fly Transatlantic. ha ha ha
 
N79969
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:42 pm


I would not take offense at any of it if I lived in Portland. Even if PDX has two large German companies in the area, that is not enough to sustain a daily 340. The Washington DC area has a Korean population that numbers around 10,000 (I think). Korea is an important business destination generally. But KE runs flights to SEL about on less than a daily basis out of IAD.

Has PDX become a popular destination for visitors/migrants from Eastern Europe? That would be an interesting to know. Also what carrier could consolidate traffic at PDX? I don't know how viable my UA/LH poaching-from-SEA theory is. For Germany bound travelers originating in SEA, it might be a better alternative than changing aircraft at LHR or Stockholm.

I am curious to see how this turns out for LH and PDX in the long run.

 
FATFlyer
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:44 pm

The media is covering the incentives on this flight today.

The Oregonian reports that LH is receiving free rent, landings and inspection station use, the total valued at $1.5 million to $2 million. Also the airport will spend $500,000 marketing the flight. Additionally they will ask the state to spend additional money marketing the flight.

The travel bank is said to total $10.8 million in ticket commitments from local businesses for the first year, including commitments from Nike, Addidas, and Freightliner. 27 companies pledged at least $20,000 in travel.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/business/1035460607113620.xml

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
desertjets
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:50 pm

COEwr: TUS-MXP would work... afterall Tucson has TWO Olive Gardens.

How about this... Is there anybody up in Portland that can give us an idea about the larger businesses based there.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
doug_or
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RE: LH To Start Frankfurt - Portland/PDX Nonstop

Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:12 am

DesertJets- I think that has been discused-
Nike-based in Beaverton (western suburb)
Freightliner- owned by Daimler-Crystler
Addidas (head of US divsion or soemtihng i think)- German company

N79969- while the copmanies alone might not fill the flight, keep in mind that this is our ONLY connection to Europe. This means for almost any portland buisness traveller this will be the easiest way to go east.

Doug
PDX/LAF/IND
When in doubt, one B pump off