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lindy field
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AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:11 am

Here's some news from PRNewswire:

"AirTran Airways has signed an agreement with Boeing Capital Corporation to lease 23 additional 717-200 jetliners. All the airplanes are scheduled to be delivered by Boeing in 2003.
From its hub at Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport, AirTran Airways
provides 388 daily flights to 40 cities throughout the eastern United States.
The low-cost carrier was the launch customer of the 717 and is the largest
operator of the airplane. AirTran Airways has received 46 of the modern
twinjets to date and, by the end of 2003, will have one of the youngest fleets
in the world."

Full story at: http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-23-2002/0001826055&EDATE=

I'd guess these are mostly the ex-TWA/AA planes. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...
 
Guest

RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:53 am

Announced in the FL conference call, they will be 22 ex-TWA 712s, and one new one.
 
717fan
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:55 am

Good news - all the remaining TWA birds are with new operators....new orders are more likely now.
One thing is interesting: Of the 30 TWA-birds, 6 are with Qantaslink and 2 with Bangkok Air, makes 22 left. But Airtran will take 23. Has they converted 1 option or has Qantaslink returned 1 717?
 
artsyman
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:56 am

This is excellent news, the 717 really is a nice plane to fly on

Jeremy
 
717fan
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:56 am

Ok, Lowfareair, you answered my question as I wrote it....
Thanks
 
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lindy field
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:00 am

Yeah, I'd guess that the elimination of most (if not all) the second-hand 717s on the market may have a positive effect on sales of 717s straight from the factory. Of course, Boeing could use some new customers as I don't think the current customers will take any large quantity of them in the near future...

Does this mean that Air Tran will dispose of all of its remaining DC-9s (19, I believe) in the next year, or will it use the new aircraft to expand ambitiously?
 
Guest

RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:04 am

The DC9s will be retired by October 2003. they will have 14 at the end of this year. That means that there will be nine more aircraft in 2003, followed by another 8 aircraft in 2003 by JetConnect. I'm starting to go into my expanding too quickly hole, but hey, Leonard is one of the best CEOs out there from the looks of things.
 
John
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:42 am

Good news for Boeing and AirTran! Still no news of a 2nd fleet type yet for FL, however. Since the MD-90 most likely WOULD have been the ideal plane for AirTran, but unfortunately no longer in production, it seems the 737-800/900 will end up being the most likely candidate, in order for them to extend their network to Denver and points west. I would think the 757 is too large for what they intend to do, at this point and time? I wonder if Boeing would ever consider improving the MD-90 and reopening the line, IF there were significant orders for it? Redesignate it the 717-300 or 400? This would certainly make the 717 line more appealing to potential customers?
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:20 am

Okay, if I did my math correctly, this makes a total of 83 717s for AirTran...61 first tier orders & 22 pre-owned airframes. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Also the one "new" order should bring the 717 program total orders to 163, with 106 already delivered. Good news indeed for the mighty little 717.  Wink/being sarcastic Too bad certain shareholders won't be happy. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:46 am

I'm confused as well. To my understanding there are 53 firm orders and 47 options. Were the VuelaMex ships deducted from this or are they additonal orders? Are the TWA ships part of the original orders/options?

As for DC-9s, in my opinion they will be gone sooner rather than later, probably by June '03.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
LMP737
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:09 am

Good news for Boeing. Jets sitting out in the desert do not contribute to the bottom line. I'm curious as to the deal that Boeing offered to Air Tran. One would expect that it was a good one for Air Tran.

Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:25 am

To my understanding there are 53 firm orders and 47 options.

Correct, but recently AirTran exercised options on another 7, making 60 firm.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BA
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:33 am

I wonder if Boeing would ever consider improving the MD-90 and reopening the line, IF there were significant orders for it? Redesignate it the 717-300 or 400? This would certainly make the 717 line more appealing to potential customers?

Boeing will not reinstate a model that will compete with one of it's existing models. The MD-90 would clearly compete with the 737-800.

Boeing would not want to see 737-800 orders suffer in favor of MD-90s.

The reason why Boeing discontinued the MD-80, MD-90, and MD-11 line in the first place was because it competed with Boeing models.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Triple Seven
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 11:08 am

Anything is a possibility. There may be a time when Boeing will be forced to produced a stretch 717 if carriers like AirTran decides to go Airbus. That is a real danger. Therefore don't rule out any possibilities. A stretch 717 is essentially a MD-80/90 re-incarnate.

- Triple Seven
 
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STT757
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:01 pm

Boeing will give Airtran a good deal on either 737-800s, 737-900s or a mix of the two (or three if you include the 737-700).

What the 717 program really needs is a large order from a major like NW.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Guest

RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:02 pm

Another board is saying that Boeing is bringing up the 713 again, as AirTran is getting stronger than ever, and when, not if, they look for a larger aircraft, the 737 and the A320 war may cause either a) AirTran to go with Airbus; or b) Boeing having to give deep discounts to FL to keep them from Airbus. A 713 would mean that Boeing wouldn't have to discount the aircraft too heavily and AirTran would get fleet commonality.
 
cloudy
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:07 pm

From what I understand - Airtran is unlikely to go with Airbus because
it is heavily in debt and Boeing holds allot of this debt.

Airtran depends on Boeing for survival money in an emergency, and also depends on them for more favorable terms than other lenders give. Also, Boeing is less likely to reposess, etc. than other creditors because it has a stake in Airtran's survival.

This stake is that Airtran is more or less the sole reason the 717 line remains open. They have also been willing to take up birds other carrier's have gotten rid of - creating demand for new ones. Also, to be cynical, Airtran has had a role in the decline of Airbus customer USair.

The reason for the 717-300(I am going by other threads and new reports), is that most airlines that are interested in the 717 are interested in this version. Particularily the Chinese - as they have had allot of dealings with MD in the past. And this has the potential to be a huge market. Airtran's interest would just be a bonus.

The fly in the ointment is that Delta may not be pleased that Boieng and Airtran are joined at the hip.
 
akelley728
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:19 pm

Lowfareair:

Do you have a link to the board that is talking about the 713?

I would assume that a 717-300 would have a max passenger capacity similar to a DC-9-50/MD-87 of 139 passengers (vs. 115), with a range of around 2500 nm (vs 2000 for the HGW version of the 717-200). Uprated BR715s of at least 23,000 lbs thrust would be used.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:29 pm

Doesnt the 717 compete with the 737-600?
 
BA
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:36 pm

Boeing has been tossing around the 717-300 for a while. They're hesitant to launch it as it would compete with the 737-700 and draw orders away from them.

But at the same time, Boeing knows the 717-300 would be successful and would generate good revenue. Infact, a 717-300 would be even more successful than the 717-200.

The 717-100 is pretty much not going to happen period which Boeing was also tossing around for a while. For those of you who haven't figured it out yet, a 717-100 would be a shortened 717 with approximately 90 seats.

Also, if the 717-300 were to be built, it will supposidly be powered by BR720s which is just a higher thrust version of the BR715.

I'd like to see the 717-300, but that'll be up to Boeing. They'll have to decide whether they are willing to have a competitor to there own 737-700, or not.

Good thing about the 717-200 though is it does have some commonality with the Next Generation 737s. Maintenance wise, there 2 completely different aircraft. Avionics wise, the 717's controls are actually quite similar to 737NG controls. Only some training is required for a pilot to switch between the 2 aircraft. This was a smart move on Boeing's part. Even just a bit of commonality can help.

AirTran should find 737NGs to be a nice complement to there 717s.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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yyz717
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 2:20 pm

Doesn't the 717 compete with the 737-600?

Yes, they are both in the same capacity range. The 736 offers compatibility with the rest of the 737NG types while the 712 offers lower operational costs than the 736. Ironically, neither is selling well. Another irony: it was SAS that launched the 736 program after a close contest with the 712 (MD-95 at the time).

Aeromexico was recently touted as a potential 712 customer to replace their DC-9 fleet, but they chose the 73G instead (after being rumoured to have chosen the 736).
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
cfm-56
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 2:40 pm

Did you also know that SAS wanted Mc Donnell Douglas to build the 717?? or at that time it was named the MD-95. They even wanted to be launch customer and then suddenly they dropped out of it. And according to the latest Airliner World issue SAS is thinking about getting rid of the 736 because they think its too small airplane for them and not making profit! go figure

 
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yyz717
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 2:43 pm

While this latest 23-aircraft deal is good news, Boeing still needs a large marquee customer to commit to the aircraft to ensure its survival.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airblue
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:56 pm

I think if Boeing will make the B717/300, some airlines like NW or Alitalia or Finnair or Austrian (the last three bought some A319/320s but they still have many MDD-80s) could be potential costumers of the B717 family.



 
717fan
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:09 pm

Perhaps Qantas should be interested in a 713 as well, as they are very pleased with the 712. (A possible 6 more are coming next year...just a rumour as of now).
IMO, for the next time we will see some smaller airlines like Montenegro Airl. etc. ordering the 717. BTW, Boeing was very happy with the 717 presentation at the ERAA in Salzburg. They have high hopes that some new european customers will take the 717....
Times for the 717 are not so bad at the moment....
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:37 pm

Glad to hear! AirTran seems to have a good hand on those 717's!

-Dmitry
 
JAL
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:29 pm

Just to prove that the 717 is a wonderful aircraft!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
Greg
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:19 pm

Boeing will not make a 717-300 considering the dismall profit projections of the -200 (it will never turn a profit for Boeing--just as the DC-9, MD-80 series never did for MacDac.). Nor will they sacrifice 'Seattle' market share by having too many overlapping products.

Now that all aircraft built will be in service in the next year or so, it's time to consider closing the production line.

You can bet that a specific motion for that is already being drafted for voting at this years Board meeting (Boeing's promise of maintaining 717 production two years ago was in a very different climate and was needed to sway Midwest into signing their contract). Many of us applaud the resolution since the 717 line is NOT holding its own (despite many promises that it could at low production). It's ironic, because one large order, say Air Canada or Northwest could buy the project at least another two years...

According to the long term LGB airport plans, that MacDac's civil production facilities have been earmarked for development into a shopping mall....
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 1:14 am

B717fan, then Boeing is lying to itself with the ERAA report. It was very clear that they were mainly talking to their suppliers and competitors rather then to potential customers on the ERAA presentation they made. The only potential order on the horizon as of now is the Montenegro order - and they know it. Finnair is going all A32X as is Austrian, Alitalia will follow quite soon. Counting them as potential customers is a ly IMO: OS is currently evaluating their RJ requirement as does AY, AY has basically already choosen a 100-seater with their recent EMB-170 order which includes EMB-190 options.

Only distant possibility I see is Olympic Aviation in case Olympic breaks down and they have to sort out things fast. However I doubt it as I doubt that AC will ever turn to Boeing to order the B717-200. Their DC-9s have all left the fleet and I don´t see them having a 100-seater need at the moment.

BTW: Airbus has withdrawn a proposal to take SK´s B736 in exchange for A32X because they will never be able to get rid of them - OS is already having problems to get rid of two!

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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srbmod
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:01 am

The 717s that were destined for VeulaMex and ended up with AirTran are owned by Pembroke Leasing. The breakdown of the lease agreement with Boeing Capital is for 22 of the ex-TWA/AA 717s and one new-build a/c. AirTran is also looking into putting larger fuel tanks into some of their 717s in order to possibly start service to the West Coast. This was reported in today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution:
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/delta/1002/airtran.html

As for any larger aircraft, AirTran has stated that they do not want any older a/c, so the possibility of any MD-80/81/82/83/87/88/90 a/c in service with AirTran is slim and none. If Boeing does launch the 717-300, it will be closer in length to the MD-87 than any of the other MD-80 family a/c.
 
717fan
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:08 am

Flying-Tiger, AY (Finnair) hasn't ordered any Embraer, or have I missed something? Do you mean AZ?
Boeing stated this on several occasions (that the ERAA went succesful for them). I am sure they see some business in Europe, otherwise it makes no sense to present a aircraft.
I wasn't at the ERAA, so I can't say if they had succes or not, I've only posted what they said to me.
Regards
717fan
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:20 am

Upsss, sorry, must read AZ (Alitalia) has ordered the EMB170. Well, I said what I was told from various sources... let´s see in a few months who was correct.  Smile Anyway, do you see much potential for a B712 order from Europe in the coming months apart from the possible Montenegro deal?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
srbmod
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:48 am

OOPS!!! I didn't put the AJC link in correctly, here's the coorect link:
http:///www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/delta/1002/24airtran.html
 
717fan
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:15 am

Flying-Tiger
No, I don't see much potential in Europe. Perhaps some smaller airlines like Meridiana, Montenegro, Aebal (who is, by the way, happy with the 717). But not a big order. The future of the 717 is in the US, Asia and Australia.
 
akelley728
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:23 am

The link that Srbmod posted doesn't currently work... here is the corect one:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/business/delta/1002/24airtran.html
 
srbmod
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:50 am

Sorry about the bad link, that's the last time I put in a link by hand; from now on, I'm cutting and pasting the link.
 
boeingmd82
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:52 am

On the 717-300 issue. In reality, the 717-300 would not compete with the 737 if it was still optimized for high frequency, short haul routes. The 737NG is not a good plane for this type of work, the main reason Aloha does not use the plane for their inter-island network. The 717-300 and 737-700 could be marketed as two airplanes of similar capacity, but different missions.

BMD82
 
717fan
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:15 am

Interesting ist that Airtran have cancelled 9 of its outstanding 717 orders.
They added 22 twa birds and 1 new 717 and cancelled 9???
But anyway its good that the TWA birds are placed.
 
Guest

RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:43 am

717fan: the 9 were supposed to be delivered next year. Either AirTran is deferring them, or they might have got a deal where they get a low price for 22 717s, but 9 fresh 717 orders are given up, so FL might end up with 113 717s at current prices.
 
cloudy
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:20 pm

The 737NG is not all that bad on short, high frequency routes. The -700 and -800 are about the best one can get.
It is only the 737-600 (and it's A318 competitor) that suffers in this regard.

Also, I believe the 717 production line was the first to use a moving assembly line. It is possible that Boeing values this line because it can be used for R&D purposes. Here they can test new, more efficient production methods in a fully operational environment without to much cost and risk. If something gets messed up because of something new being tried, and production falls behind schedule, it is far easier to catch up on this line because of the low rate.

The workers and facilities in Long Beach also may serve as leverage against governments and Unions up in Washington state. They have already said their is no guarantee that Washington state will get the Sonic Cruiser. They lose some of this leverage if the site becomes a shopping mall.
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Sat Oct 26, 2002 12:13 am

This clears up some of the confusion:

CHICAGO, Oct 24 (Reuters) - Boeing Co., the world's No. 1 jet maker, said on Thursday that AirTran Airways swapped nine unfilled orders for new 717s this week while confirming plans to lease 22 of the used narrowbody jetliners.

AirTran, an Orlando, Florida-based low-cost carrier, plans to lease 23 Boeing 717-200s through Boeing's financing subsidiary, Boeing Capital Corp., for delivery next year under plans to have an all 717 fleet by the end of 2003.

All but one of the 717s were returned to Boeing by American Airlines parent AMR Corp., the world's largest carrier, after it bought TWA and decided to reduce the number of airplane types it uses to help cut maintenance costs.

"Boeing made us a tremendous deal on these used airplanes," AirTran spokesman Tad Hutcheson said. "Some have been used two years and some have even only been painted and not flown so they are almost new."

As a result of the deal, AirTran reduced the number of options it will have on new planes, Hutcheson said.

"AirTran is substituting nine contractually firm airplanes from its orders," Boeing spokeswoman Patricia York said.

Airlines have postponed hundreds of jet deliveries because of the prolonged air industry slump that was exacerbated by the Sept. 11 attacks. Larger air carriers such as Delta Air Lines and AMR have announced plans to defer deliveries in a fight to regain profitability.

But AirTran eked out a small third-quarter profit and expects to report a profit for the fourth quarter and for 2002, in contrast to huge losses at most of the large airlines that operate through hub networks.

AMR returned 24 of the 717s it had to Boeing and with the AirTran deal, Boeing has now placed all of those airliners. After the deductions this week, the 717 order book will stand at 153 planes, Boeing said.

The 717 was designed as a replacement for DC-9s and AirTran will use them to phase out the remaining DC-9s it has in its fleet. AirTran will receive about two 717s per month.

The planes returned from AMR had from 100 to 106 seats and Boeing will outfit them with 117 seats for AirTran.

At the end of next year, AirTran expects to have a fleet of 73 Boeing 717s with six options and 20 purchase rights, Hutcheson said. AirTran will not announce its fleet plans for 2004 until sometime next year, he said.




I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
717fan
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Sat Oct 26, 2002 2:43 am

This leaves space for another carrier to take 9 airframes in 2003. Perhaps Qantaslink could take these....
 
L.1011
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:47 am

The 717 has real potential with faithful and familiar DC-9/M80/M90 operators, like NW. It gives Boeing a selling point to airlines that would otherwise be just a likely to go Airbus as Boeing.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: AirTran To Lease 23 More 717s

Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:33 am

The problem with NW is that they are buying A319/A320 for their narrowbody fleet. So buying the 717 would create another fleet type. I expect that when the time comes to replace the DC9's that NW will opt to use A319's to replace the larger DC9's and use RJ's to replace the smaller ones.

Of course, NW still expects to fly the DC9's for another ten years and by then, I don't know if the 717 will still be in production. For all intents, AAI is keeping the 717 line alive..which probably explains why Boeing is doing everything to keep AAI happy.