MAH4546
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Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 2:22 am

From a traditionally reliable source at the FlyerTalk message boards, Northwest Airlines, following the very successful launch of MIA-AMS, is considering launching non-stop service between Miami and Tokyo Narita. Service would operate two or three times a week with a 747-400 and is largely dependent on the approval of the CO/DL/NW alliance.

Also, I have heard rumours, and these I do not know how relaible they are, that NW is taking a look at launching Detroit-Sao Paulo late next year.
a.
 
desertjets
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 2:30 am

Certainly a thrice or four times weekly flight to Tokyo would make sense. This might also get American Airlines to commit one-way or the other to that market as well.

However I cannot honestly see DTW-GRU as a reasonable possibility in the next 18 months. Honestly things will have to get a lot better for that to be feasible. But it may make sense to apply to the DOT to get the slots to do the flight.
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azo
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:03 am

Wow, I never even would have imagined DTW-GRU as a possibility. And of course it still may not be, but you never know. New territory for NWA. Comments from Farve?
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
MIA777
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:11 am

ok I really hope NW starts an MIA-NRT flight -- finally some Asian service (besides El Al who connects in JFK or ERW...and we've already had the "Is Israel in Europe or Asia debate")....I also think AA should serve this route....they do have a large hub in MIA. Nearly every plane that flies over my house is AA (on their Latin America ops)....oh well...hope this news turns out to be true!

MIA777
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PW100
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:13 am

Most interesting news indeed!
However, can the 744 [non ER] do MIA-NRT both ways non-stop without payload restictions year round?? Isn't this route more suitable for the ultimate long rangers 345/346ER/772LR?
Anybody?

PW100
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ContinentalEWR
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:29 am

I don't see DTW-GRU any time soon. The Brazilian market has been hurt badly by the Latin American economic crisis. NW can perhaps flex its alliance with CO and code share through Houston or Newark to Sao Paolo.

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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:43 am

Does NW have enough feed in MIA or would they rely on O & D ?
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Ezra
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:56 am


NW could also rely on its feed at NRT to make this route work.
 
BA
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:56 am

ORD - HKG 7793 miles
NRT - MIA 7436 miles

UA flies ORD-HKG on a 747-400.

744s can do NRT-MIA easily.

However, that isn't really the issue.

The Miami Metro does not have a large Japanese population nor is Miami a big destination for Japanese.

Ties between Asia and Miami are minimal.

If NW were to operate this route, it would need to rely on O&D and the O&D is not there.

If AA were to operate the route, then it might have a chance because of the connection opportunities to South America.

But this route cannot succeed without connections which is why I don't see NW flying the route.

With the current economic crisis, I do not think you will see a new US destination from Japan until 2004/2005. What currently exists between the US and Tokyo is all that can be supported at the moment.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:15 am

Lets not forget the operational costs and crew costs of such a flight.

Because of the distance of this route, costs are going to be extremely high to the point that the revenue generated from such a flight will not be enough to cover the costs and therefore the flight will not be profitable.

You will need to charge passengers a lot for such a flight that making a connection will be much cheaper and therefore people will not fly on it.

This is a big problem with Asia - US flights. It's a completely different issue from Europe flights.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MAH4546
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:11 am

We'll see what happens, but the O&D between Miami and Asia is there for three flights a week. In addition, Northwest Airlines codeshares with all of Gulfstream's intra-Florida and Bahamas flights out of MIA. Plus, don't forget about cargo.
a.
 
scottysair
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:21 am

Yeah, right and we're won't not happened with the new nonstop from MIA-NRT flight anytime into the future. I do think about hear Vraig were already opreation nonstop from MIA-NRT flight. Don't you guys know remember about this one for last time. I'm pretty sure that will be great to high load factors for the new nonstop. I did know about AA might will be chance for the new route from MIA-NRT anytime into the of future. Well, later!!
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:37 am



This is a very interesting proposition. Seeing as I do the cargo sales
for NW in MIA, there is a definite interest for some direct Asia service.
On the surface an O&D market may not exist, but remember that South
Florida is a very large banking and insurance area and there are many companies that have their Latin American branches in this area.
There is also a very large Japanese population in Brazil, Peru and somewhat Argentina. Produce from Chile is also very popular in Japan. I think a
3xweekly service would be ideal for start up and could eventually
go daily. As far as payload on this flight, I dont think there will be
much for cargo as you are probably looking at a 13hr+ flight time, which
after pax, baggage, and fuel, there isnt a lot left for cargo.
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:33 am

BA
Thanks for the info. Does UA face payload restrictions on their west bound ORD-HKG flights?

MIA is indeed a good cargo market. NW could certainly use a 744 Combi [KLM ??] for a NRT-MIA run!

What are conveniant departure/arrival times from at MIA and NRT from a pax point of view? Would MIA-NRT fit in as an extension to the current KLM AMS-MIA flight [arrives MIA @ 14.45, departs MIA @ 17.35]? KLM could fly a 744 Combi [they have 16 or 17 of them...] into MIA from AMS under joint KL/NW flight number. The same ship could depart 2-3 hrs later for MIA-NRT as a NW flight? Just an idea...

PW100
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GARUDAROD
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:40 am



PW100
That in effect would make the flight a KL flight since it would be flown
with KL aircraft and crew. KL already serves NRT nonstop from AMS
plus with the Dutch crew flight hours, I dont think this flight would be
realistic. There is a NW B747-400 that sits for almost 24hrs at JFK
but you would need two aircraft for this. Only one if you operate say
on days WE,FR,SU. Most of the Latin American flights arrive MIA
early in the morning, while the European flights all land between 1-3pm.
Another option might be the two B747-300 Combis that NW owns, but
has removed the engines for installation on their own Freighters.
4 New Engines would be significantly cheaper than a new B747-400.
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
sllevin
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:58 am

I suspect it could work. Contrary to some folks thoughts that there wouldn't be enough support, I have to say, I was on AA943 last week from DFW-MIA and when the bags came off at MIA, there were a LOT of bags that had come through AA60, the NRT-DFW flight.

MIA (especially with the feed to MCO) is always going to be a significant tourist destination. I suspect that once NW starts up the service, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon.

Steve
 
MAH4546
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:13 am

MIA (especially with the feed to MCO) is always going to be a significant tourist destination. I suspect that once NW starts up the service, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon.

If everyone else jumps on the bandwagon the market will be at overcapacity and yields will suck. I think Northwest Airlines can do very well with MIA-NRT two or three times a week.

On the Miami end, they can get interlining connections from Latin American flights. Peru and Brazil have heavy traffic to Asia. There is also and O&D traffic base to Asia. Miami is a major banking and fashion centre (don't laugh, because it is the fashion industry that make's Alitalia MIA-MXP flights such big moneymakers), and so is Tokyo. Plus connections on NW coded Gulfstream flights to the Bahamas and intra-Florida.

On the Tokyo end, Miami and Latin American originating travelers will have acsess to Northwest's extensive Asian network, which includes Manila, Singapore, Shanghai, Pusan, Taipei...that is just to name a few.

While I do think on the Miami-originating end, American Airlines (or even LanChile) would have the upper hand, Northwest clearly could make this service work based on its extensive Asian customer base.

We will just have to wait and see what happens. It seems too good to be true, but the service is being looked at.



a.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:06 am

I really don't see a Detroit- Sao Paulo flight anytime soon either. If there is, it would be a once a week thing on a 757.

I think Northwest would put their focus into many other international destinations before they went to South America. First of all, Detroit area doesn't have that many South Americans living in it.

Detroit has the largest Arab population outside the Mideast and Northwest doesn't fly to anywhere in the Mideast other than thru KLM connections at AMS. One would think Northwest would serve Saudi Arabia or UAE first.

If Northwest goes for that long range 757 or something about 767 size, I could see a few more European destinations being added like Warsaw, a return to Milan, Shannon, a return to Glasgow, Copenhagen, Moscow and maybe Manchester.

Northwest will probably reinstate direct flights to Seoul that were dropped in the Asian crisis first or any others that could go direct to Asia without a stop at NRT
 
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:09 am

If NW were to start MIA-NRT service would this then constitute their longest route? I think the service would do very well as it would probably provide the quickest link to Japan for South Florida, South America, and the Carribean.
 
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:27 pm

"Japan for South Florida, South America, and the Carribean. "

This route is not going to make out that well (imo) for two key reasons, first the Carribean and South Florida are way too far away to attract that many Japanese tourists. Hawaii, Guam, Australia, Fiji etc are all much closer and much cheaper for the Japanese to visit than the Carribean or South beach.

This is the same reasoning why there's no flights from Europe-Hawaii.

Also Miami is the financial Capital of Latin America, there's very little industry in Florida itself which has trade with Asia. The Mid-West (Detroit, Chicago) have strong manufactoring ties to Asia, NY and Bos have strong financial and Cultural ties to Asia, and the West coast has huge Asian populations for which trade and tourism thrive.

There's little trade or cultural ties between Florida and Asia, otherwise someone would have connected the two regions a long time ago.
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MAH4546
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:29 pm

There's little trade or cultural ties between Florida and Asia, otherwise someone would have connected the two regions a long time ago.

JAL flew MIA-ANC-NRT in the 1980s with a DC-8.
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nwa man
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:00 pm

"If Northwest goes for that long range 757 or something about 767 size, I could see a few more European destinations being added..."

Hehe...like the A330? On its way in, buddy. Those routes going to be added? Doubtful. NW's quite happy with letting pax connect in AMS and continue on to their finals. DEN-AMS, PHX-AMS and DFW-AMS are more likely than MSP-CPH or anywhere else on the list.


"Also Miami is the financial Capital of Latin America..."

You're going to have to explain yourself on that one, considering that last time I checked, Miami is in the United States, which is not in Latin America. Miami and Tokyo both have large banking and finance industries, so one could argue that this route is needed to connect these two cities.

We'll see how it turns out...should be interesting.


N-Dub

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jcs17
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:15 pm

The problem is that MIA doesnt have any NW connecting flights, but I guess that the same thing can be said about LAX, SFO, and SEA. Do you think MIA could fill a 744 75% daily...probably not, but they could do it 2 to 4 times a week. I dont know...stranger things have happed. As for DTW-GRU, I dont see that happening, there is not a strong enough Latin American population in Detroit for something like that to happen. I have a feeling that NW is content feeding pax through IAH for South American flights, so that its not their ass that is on the line when the volitaile South American markets turn south (no pun intended).
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MAH4546
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Tue Oct 29, 2002 12:04 am

You're going to have to explain yourself on that one, considering that last time I checked, Miami is in the United States, which is not in Latin America. Miami and Tokyo both have large banking and finance industries, so one could argue that this route is needed to connect these two cities.

No need to explain, it is a widely known fact. Miami is home to something like 114 forieign banks from Europe, Latin America, the Caribbean, Asia, and Africa with nearly $55B in assets. Those 114 banks include the Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, which has big offices in Miami. Because of the instability of most Latin American economies, most of Latin banks have huge operations in Miami. In fact, it is hard to name a major Latin financial instiution that does not have huge Miami operations.

Check these links out:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22financial+capital+of+latin+america%22+miami&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22capital+of+latin+america%22+miami&btnG=Google+Search

Some do argue that Panama City is the financial capital, but Miami is the widely accepeted one.





a.
 
A330_DTW
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:31 am

I really don't see a MIA/NRT route anytime soon.
A) NW barely has enough 744s to keep its DTW-Asia operation running.
B) MIA is not a traditional destination for the Japanese. (Now a MCO/NRT I could see. We ran a 744 MCO/DTW/NRT several times a few years ago and it was full all the way from MCO to NRT every time).

As for DTW/GRU...Delta is pulling out of S. America because of low demand. I don't see NW trying to enter this market.
 
Derico
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:52 am

I wish there were already a MIA-NRT route, it would be very, very nice (even better if it was a Japanese carrier, but let's not daydream too much...) The way things stand right now it seems like a long shot, but I would hope that both in Japan and in Miami there are efforts to encourage Japanese tourists to come to Miami (also as another gateway to the lesser antilles).
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MAH4546
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:28 am

B) MIA is not a traditional destination for the Japanese. (Now a MCO/NRT I could see. We ran a 744 MCO/DTW/NRT several times a few years ago and it was full all the way from MCO to NRT every time).

MCO-NRT is never going to happen. That is pure leisure traffic unlike MIA-NRT.
a.
 
BA
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:39 am

MCO-NRT is more likely than MIA-NRT.

For one, it's a route that will actually have a lot of traffic.

While it's true MCO-NRT will obviously be mostly a leisure route while MIA-NRT would not. The demand for an MCO-NRT route is actually higher. But will a flight be feasible with the low-yields such a route would experience? That's something the airlines will have to evaluate.

Japanese love Disney World.

Lets not forget Saudi Arabian Airlines which flew summer seasonal to MCO last year and several summers before. Saudi's love Disney World as well.

That's not a case for MIA. Such a route would need to rely mostly on business, and the O&D isn't there.

Right now, every city in the US that has Tokyo service is all that can support Tokyo service.

I would not look for a new US destination from Tokyo until at least 2004/2005.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Trvlr
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:17 am

Right now, every city in the US that has Tokyo service is all that can support Tokyo service.

BA: I tend to disagree with that statement. I feel that Boston, Portland, and San Diego could all support at least a 3-4x weekly service to NRT. MIA, too...if it was properly marketed. The airlines just aren't in a position to assume the risk right now.

You are correct in that there is a slight likelihood of MCO seeing NRT service in the next few years. However, I highly doubt the airline serving the route will be a scheduled major. Look for a tour company to set up a weekly service or something. Even then, however, the combination of a hyper-long route and low-yielding passengers probably wouldn't make the flights that attractive for any airline.

I think MIA has a much better chance than MCO of getting scheduled service. My bet is that AA, LA, or NW will launch MIA-NRT within the next two or three years.

Aaron G.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:25 am

Japanese love Disney World.

Exactly, which is why they have the Tokyo Disneyland Resort, a resort far superior to any other Disney park, built to much higher standards. And Tokyo Disneyland is also the world's most visited themepark.

That's not a case for MIA. Such a route would need to rely mostly on business, and the O&D isn't there.

The O&D between Miami and Asia is there for a 3x a week service. Factor in that plus the LatAm connections and you have a potential winner.

For one, it's a route that will actually have a lot of traffic.

With sucky yields. To Europe, okay, but for such an ultra-long route, an regular airline cannot afford to have such poor yields.
a.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:53 am

In response to my mention of Northwest getting a long range 757- 767...

""Hehe...like the A330? On its way in, buddy. Those routes going to be added? Doubtful. NW's quite happy with letting pax connect in AMS and continue on to their finals. DEN-AMS, PHX-AMS and DFW-AMS are more likely than MSP-CPH or anywhere else on the list.""

I should have added low density as a key word. I meant for flights from DTW to various European destinations that cannot fill a DC-10-30 or A330 such as a DTW-WAW, I think could be successful if DTW-WAW or DTW-Milan used a smaller aircraft like a long range 757 or a 767-200/300ER, or even an A330-200 or the sometimes talked about Airbus proposed A330-100. If you remember back a couple years ago there used to be a DTW-Milan flight, but they couldnt fill the DC-10s, but they could fill a 767 I bet.

What about DTW-PEK, is that coming back? That was running earlier this year as Flight 88 from PEK, before making a stop at NRT and what is now Flight 86. I remember Flight 88 always being full even though it only ran 4-5 days a week.

MCO-NRT, I agree is more likely than Miami. Yes the Japanese have their own Disney World, but they don't have Epcot, MGM or Animal Kingdom as part of it now do they? Does Japan have Universal Studios or Sea World? When I was at Universal and Sea World I saw a ton of Japanese tourists. I think someone could operate a flight to Tokyo once or twice a week. Didn't ANA serve MCO at one time? On Orlando Airports airline page it shows ANA-

http://www.orlandoairports.net/goaa/ops/airlines.htm


 
MAH4546
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:57 am

but they don't have Epcot, MGM or Animal Kingdom as part of it now do they? Does Japan have Universal Studios or Sea World?

No, they do not have Epcot, MGM, or Animal Kingdom (which is just an overpriced zoo). What they do have, though, is DisneySea, which opened a few months ago and is the most expensive and technologically advanced theme park on the planet. They do have Universal Studios too, in Osaka.

Didn't ANA serve MCO at one time?

No, but they strongly considered MIA-NRT service back in 1996/1997. It was going to be flown with A340s, but the 340 order was canceled.
a.
 
BA
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:04 am

Trvlr,

The market between Asia and the US has been hit really hard as a result of the poor economy. Asia was much more affected than Europe service. I don't expect any new US cities anytime soon. The economy just isn't strong enough. The economy hit the technological and trade sector the most. The 2 #1 markets between Asia and the US.

Out of the cities you listed, I only see BOS as feasible possibly before 2004/2005. But even that is pushing it. The costs of operating an aircraft for that long of a distance are probably not worth it. You have to consider the crew costs and the operational costs.

PDX - Too close to SEA. PDX has a bad reputation of Asia service due to the INS complications DL had in the past.

SAN - Los Angeles is directly up north.

DEN has been on the table for NRT service for the past 3 years and 3 carriers are interested in the route. But that was before the economic turn down.

MCO-NRT is much lower-yielding, but capacity on such a route is much higher than an MIA-NRT route that it will probably be more feasible.

I think MIA has a much better chance than MCO of getting scheduled service. My bet is that AA, LA, or NW will launch MIA-NRT within the next two or three years.

I completely disagree there. The market for an MCO flight is much much greater than MIA. Florida is a major destination for Japanese for a number of reason, it's theme parks, NASA, and it's dozens of other attractions. MIA doesn't have that. As a result, an MIA-NRT route would need to rely on business traffic and like I mentioned earlier, business between MIA and NRT is extremely minimal.

An MIA-NRT flight would be feasible if operated by AA and coordinated with connections to Latin America. However, are the costs of operating an MIA-NRT flight worth it?

The impact of an MIA-NRT flight could severaly hurt DFW-NRT loads which is something AA would not want.

This is the same reason why UA does not operate transatlantic and transpacific routes from DEN and why DL doesn't operate transatlantic from SLC. Those passengers can be funneled through UA's ORD and IAD hubs, and DL's CVG and ATL hubs.

This is why I don't see AA opening up MIA-NRT. Simply put, there are 2 reasons why:

1) The costs of operating such a flight are probably not worth it.
2) It would impact the performance on DFW-NRT.

I don't see this route coming anytime soon. Not until the O&D market strengthens and a Japanese carrier operates the route.

MAH4546,

Exactly, which is why they have the Tokyo Disneyland Resort, a resort far superior to any other Disney park, built to much higher standards. And Tokyo Disneyland is also the world's most visited themepark.

I know all about Tokyo Disneyland Resort. But Japanese still visit Disney World. I saw them there all the time. Lets not forget the other themeparks and other major tourist destinations.

The O&D between Miami and Asia is there for a 3x a week service. Factor in that plus the LatAm connections and you have a potential winner.

What I told Trvlr.

With sucky yields. To Europe, okay, but for such an ultra-long route, an regular airline cannot afford to have such poor yields.

I'm not saying MCO-NRT is going to happen. But it is more feasible than a MIA-NRT because the demand for that route is much higher. Yields are going to be the reason why such a flight won't happen. My point simply is MCO-NRT is more feasible than MIA-NRT.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:12 am

HlywdCatft,

I know what you mean. When I was in Orlando, it was full of Japanese. I just couldn't believe it. I felt as if I was in Japan.

My ATL-MCO flight on DL was also more than nearly 60% full of Japanese passengers who flew on NRT-ATL and connected onto my flight to get to MCO.

The market for an MCO-NRT is definately there. The problem is yields which will be the reason why the route may never happen. I think eventually we may see a seasonal route.

Lets not forget, if demand for such a route is extremely high, yields can be boasted by operating low capacity.

Think of it this way, the airline industry works a lot like the oil industry. The oil companies like Opec reduce oil production to raise oil prices which would produce more revenue for them.

The same is done in the airline industry.

It's the same reason why UA's SFO-CDG and IAD-CDG flights are being downgraded to 763s. Not because the flights aren't filling up, but because the yields on the flights are low now.

This is solved by cutting capacity, thus boosting yields. That's exactly what UA is doing and it certainly is a smart move.

MCO-NRT could operate 2x or 3x a week by an airline. Since the demand for such a route is actually quite high (especially in the summer), and no other carrier operates the route. This route will actually be feasible and can be quite profitable.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:35 am



How did this turn into a thread about AA and their hubs? The title of this
posting is NORTHWEST....Most people dont seem to realize that MCO is
less than a 3hr drive from MIA. And the Japanese love to visit more than
one city on a trip. Hence the Golden Triangle of LAX/SFO/LAS fares
offered to Japanese visitors. A MIA/NRT 3x a week routing is certainly
very do-able, whether it actually happens, remains to be seen.
Also with the huge amount of connections that NWA has at NRT, this
flight could draw visitors from all over SE Asia, so its not only a MIA/NRT
leg that is taken into consideration, you could also see pax travelling
MIA/ICN, MIA/HKG, MIA/SIN, MIA/BKK, MIA/TPE, MIA/MNL all via NRT
of course.
As a final thought, doesnt NWA still have 2 B744 to be delivered
between 2004-06???
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
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STT757
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:50 am

"Also Miami is the financial Capital of Latin America..."

You're going to have to explain yourself on that one, considering that last time I checked, Miami is in the United States, which is not in Latin America"

Do you think Wealthy folks in Latin America would rather put their money in banks in Argentina or South Florida?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:08 am

How did this turn into a thread about AA and their hubs? The title of this
posting is NORTHWEST....Most people dont seem to realize that MCO is
less than a 3hr drive from MIA.


3 hours if your driving at 3am in the morning. Usually closer to 5 hours with the normal stops, but I usually am able to do it in 3,5h. What most people are forgeting is this:

NW 3885 MIA 1140-1250 MCO
NW 3919 MIA 1345-1450 MCO
NW 3899 MIA 1535-1645 MCO
NW 3922 MIA 1610-1725 MCO
NW 3889 MIA 1755-1910 MCO
NW 3875 MIA 1840-1950 MCO

Not even Las Vegas, which I believe is a more popular destination for Japanese tourists than Orlando, has non-stop service to Tokyo, because JAL routes thier LAS flights NRT-LAS-LAX-NRT in order to get at least some high-yielding pax. And, as GARUDAROD mentioned, most Japanese tourists visit more than just one city.

Orlando is especially popular with Dutch tourists as well, but Northwest is very pleased routing thier AMS-MCO passengers via MIA (or Martinair Holland) because MIA has the business traffic to make AMS service profitable (and MIA-AMS has been a huge hit profitwise, or so I hear). I know comparing Europe to Japan is very different, but I'm just giving an example.
a.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:09 am

No more outstanding orders on 747-400's. Those 2 were delivered earlier in 2002.
 
BA
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 11:15 am

MAH4546,

You're forgetting that Singapore Airlines recently started flying to LAS 3x a week.

The flight flies SIN-HKG-LAS.

While that's not Tokyo, it's still Asia.

NWA flew AMS-MIA (now KLM, I know) is because there is a market for an AMS-MIA flight and a strong one.

AMS-MIA is a stronger market than AMS-MCO which is why NW chose MIA over MCO.

That's not the case with NRT.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:11 pm

About DTW-GRU

Maybe most people do not see it happening... until it someone has the idea!

Brazilian economy faces hard times nowadays, but let's not forget that DL for example is dropping many South America routes but GRU.
It is a business destination most of all, so yelds may support it. Besides, apart from being a NW hub, this flight would link to of the most important autocentres in the world. Brazil's has on of the largest car industries around and aoubt 70% percent of production is on the Sao Paulo State.

So, it may not be such a foolishness after all!
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:26 pm

You're forgetting that Singapore Airlines recently started flying to LAS 3x a week.

No, I am not. With Hong Kong there is a much wealthier demographic, especially to Las Vegas. A lot of high-rollers, not the case with NRT.

AMS-MIA is a stronger market than AMS-MCO which is why NW chose MIA over MCO.

I would not be too sure about that. Amsterdam-Orlando is very likely a much larger market than Amsterdam-Miami, but the reason there are 12 flights a week between AMS and MIA compared to the four between AMS and MCO is because Miami has incredibly strong yields. Same with Switzerland. Number two destination for Swiss tourists going to America is Orlando, but Swiss serves Orlando by way of AA codeshare via MIA because MIA has less traffic (though still enough to fill up a daily MD-11) but good yields (in the case of Swiss, though, it is incredibly good yields). It also helps that while Miami attracts less European tourists than Orlando (Miami is more popular with the French, Spanish, Germans, and Italians, but that is about it), it attracts a wealthier tourist demographic. Again, this does not mean it applies to Asian tourists as well, but it would not surprise me (among Asian tourists, Miami is hugely popular among SE Asians, especially Thai).
a.
 
BA
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RE: Northwest Considering MIA-NRT

Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:07 pm

MAH4546,

No, I am not. With Hong Kong there is a much wealthier demographic, especially to Las Vegas. A lot of high-rollers, not the case with NRT.

Japanese are crazy about Las Vegas just as much as Chinese. There really is not much of a difference at all. Asians as a whole like to gamble.

I would not be too sure about that. Amsterdam-Orlando is very likely a much larger market than Amsterdam-Miami, but the reason there are 12 flights a week between AMS and MIA compared to the four between AMS and MCO is because Miami has incredibly strong yields.

I don't believe that. MIA is definately a much larger market than MCO from AMS. You say that MCO is very popular with Dutch, but you forget that AMS-MIA is not going to be full of mostly Dutch. KLM has an expanse network from AMS to Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and other parts in Europe. It's a major gateway and one of the best IMO.

The same goes with Swiss and most other European carriers. Many from other countries connect in ZRH on Swiss.

From Europe, MIA is definately a higher-yielding market, and a larger O&D market. You must not forget that ties between MIA and Europe are extremely strong not just because of Orlando up north, but because business ties are strong.

My point that I've been saying several times is that's not the case with Asia. MCO makes more sense for an Asia flight than MIA simply because most of Asia-Florida market is to Orlando. Therefore, it would make sense to fly to Orlando over Miami.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran

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