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Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:26 am

Flight International is reporting that Boeing is evaluating the 3rd possible 777X version. The 3rd member, 777-250ERX, will have similar range to the 773ER, with capacity more than 772LR.

The 777-250ERX is understood to be looking at 9 or 10-frame stretch of GE-90-110B-powered -200LR. The length will be 68.6m/225ft long. The size is between 772 and 773. The capacity is believed to be 320-330 seats, with ranges up to 13900km/7500nm.

Boeing will go ahead with the 777-250ERX launch if it receives 50 orders.

Regardless of whether the -250ERX becomes a real programme, the manufacturer says a revised development schedule for the delayed -200LR will be decided in the second quarter of next year. The first EVA 777-200LR was originally scheduled for delivery in January 2004, but the effort was put on ice in September 2001.

Boeing unveiled the plan as PIA announced 8 orders of the 777 last week, including 2 772LR.


 
flyf15
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:47 am

They'll be lucky to get 50 B777 orders in the near future with the economy being what it is, let alone 50 orders for a planned and unflown niche aircraft with a direct competitor well on its way (A340-500).
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:08 am

I am confused as to which role this aircraft is to fill. Has there been interest from airlines that want the range of the -300ER, but not the capacity?
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:32 am

thats gonna screw up the boeing customer code system! Will the plane be named a B777-2536ERX (for BA)??? Lovely name!!!
 
wn700driver
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:46 am

I will never understand you Boeing! I think it should just be called the 777-400ERX. It was ok to name the '37-500 & 600 series higher than the 400, yet they clearly had shorter fuses than the 300 (and the 700 still has a shorter design than the 400 as well), so why not just do that for the 777? Oh right, it would make sense, that's right & apparently we are allergic to that in Everett...
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:53 am

Wn700... I agree with you, but know this:

Boeing didnt appear as screwed up as it is now, until the move to Chicago.

Dont blame it on Everett. It seems they've had no guidance/direction at all since leaving Washington... loss of the 747X and 764LR, the whole Sonic Cruiser wackiness, weak beginning for the 772LR program... sad really.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:20 am

If only United were in better financial shape, I could seriously see the 747 fleet being sold right away...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
BA777
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:03 am

So what will Boeing do, say BA ordered one of two 775s  Wink/being sarcastic

777-250(36)?

BA777
 
lanperu
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:25 am

I wish that Boeing would go ahead with a 777-100ER, that would be cool. It would probably be good for longer-distance routes too small for a full 772 and too big for a 763. It would help close the range gap that the 764 has.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 7:14 am

I have a feeling that the so-called 777-250ERX will finally be called 777-500 if the project gets the go-ahead.

And Boeing might find a way to legally allow Rolls-Royce to build a high-thrust version of the Trent 800 engine for this plane, too. Imagine a 777-500 with 115,000 lb. thrust Trent 8115 engines. Far fetched? Probably not, because if Boeing can offer a partial stretch 777 between the 777-200 and 777-300 in size powered by the Trent 8115 engine Boeing could land 70+ orders almost overnight, especially from British Airways, Delta Airlines, American Airlines, Singapore Airlines, and so on.
 
BA
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 7:32 am

This is certainly interesting and I have to say, quite smart.

There is quite a large size difference between the 772 and 773. This will definately fill in that niche.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 8:45 am

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Understand that the term 777-250ERX is a working designation only, to show that it splits the size difference between the -200 and -300. Should this aircraft go ahead, you will definitely see it retain a standard moniker (probably -400ER).

RayChuang,

"Boeing might find a way to legally allow Rolls-Royce to build a high-thrust version of the Trent 800 engine for this plane, too."

Not possible. The agreement with GE covers weight ranges, not seating capacity. As clearly stated, this aircraft would employ the MTOW of the current 777LR aircraft (i.e. 750,000lbs.) in order to keep range/payload levels high. Therefore, there is no doubt the GE90 will be used.

Flyf15,

The 777-200LR competes directly with the A340-500, not this proposal. What this (777-250ERX) aircraft is intended to do is compete on a range-for-range basis with the A340-600. In addition, since the capacity numbers of the A340-600 are inflated, Boeing is therefore aiming to not only match range numbers, but capacity numbers as well. In other words, you'd have a competition breakdown as follows:

300 seats, 8,000+ nm
777-200LR
A340-500

330 seats, 7,500 nm
777-250ERX
A340-600

350 seats, 7,400+ nm
777-300ER


Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 9:07 am

RayCheung - don't forget also that the Trent is near the limit of its thrust - it would be require expensive development (read: crfesting a new engine) to give a 115k lb thrust Trent. The lack of expansion possibility for the RR and PW engines was part of the reason why GE were the exclusive supplier.

V/F
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BR715-A1-30
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 9:27 am

Wn700Driver, I agree. But remember, the 737-600 is a replacement for older 737-200/500 series. the 737-700 is a replacement for 737-300 aircraft, and the 737-800/900 is a replacement for 737-400 aircraft.

But about the 777-250ERX, What doofus made that up, why not the 777-400ERX. Just because it has a higher number does not mean it has to be bigger.
Puhdiddle
 
The Coachman
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:10 am

If the exclusive engine agreement is bound by weight regulations, then, Boeing be lucky to get 10 orders...
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flyf15
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:20 am

Alright, so say it does compete with the A340-600 instead of the -500. Same things I said imply, only a more sucessful competition to go against.
 
b757300
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:21 am

Nothing wrong with building an aircraft that fits between the 777-200 and 777-300. Same would go if Airbus built an "A340-550". It would be a niche aircraft but would cost almost nothing to develop. Only a few orders would be needed to break even.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:21 am

Hamlet69,

Not that I'm really doubting you, but how are you aware of the weight agreement with GE? I was under the impression that these engines were just for the 772LR/773ER.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 12:50 pm

"I wish that Boeing would go ahead with a 777-100ER, that would be cool. It would probably be good for longer-distance routes too small for a full 772 and too big for a 763. "

Boeing already considered and shot down a proposal to build a 777-100
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BA
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 12:56 pm

The 777-100 generated little interest mainly because it was too heavy.

Instead, Boeing launched the 767-400ER which is a much more logical choice.

Read this post of mine for more information:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/940701/6

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
cloudy
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:23 pm

B7573000,

New derivatives are indeed substantially cheaper than new designs, but any stretch or shrink has signficant costs - in the hundreds of millions. Most of this cost is driven by the certification requirements - there are allot of things you have to prove to the JAA or FAA before you can get such design changes certified. This changes the aerodynamics and structural loads on the airframe creating all sorts of potential problems you have to convince the regulators you have solved. Not only that, often you have to convince at least one engine maker to make significant and expensive modifications to their offerings. You ALWAYS need at least a few dozen orders to break even on any modification as significant as changing the length of the fuselage. And they need to be orders you would not otherwise have gotten.

Remember Jetblue's request for an A-320.5 - Airbus's spokesman said, "It depends on how many they want to order." He sais this because stretches and shrinks are neither easy nor cheap. It sometimes appears so only because even 200-300 million $ isn't much compared to perhaps 10 billion $ for a new design.

That being said, there are reasons a manufacturer might want to take a loss on a particular derivative or option in order to increase the appeal of their product line as a whole. The A-318, 767-400, Embraer 145 XR, and 747-400ER are some possible examples. Boeing never sold a single 777 with folding wings, but it invested allot into offering the option and many say it was money well spent. This is because they might not have gotten United as a launch customer without it (according to "21st century jet").

 
BOEING747400
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 4:48 pm

How many pounds of thrust is intended for an engine of this B777-250ERX aircraft? And what types of engines are offered for that model? Thanks.
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 8:28 pm

Hello,

As Hamlet69 outlined it: there's no way any engine but the GE90 with power any 777X derivative above the 317t (700,000lb) barrier. Power-by-the-hour deals are progressively being developed throughout the industry and will downplay the engine commonalty issue on the 777X. Even Cathay Pacific has shown some interest in the GE90/777X combo after firmly expressing its disappointment after the selection of GE in July 1999.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
Air Transport Business [ATB]
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:18 pm

Hello BOEING747400,

How many pounds of thrust is intended for an engine of this B777-250ERX aircraft?

I guess that will depend on the retained fuselage length and whether they keep the -300ER's semi-levered landing gear.


And what types of engines are offered for that model?

Same problem. But likely the GE90-115B since that airplane is primary aimed at Emirates which experiences hot temperatures on take-off from DXB. But the engine could be rated at engine thrust between 110 and 115,000lb.


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
Air Transport Business [ATB]
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 3:48 am

Flyf15

Precisely, and this proposal is intended to keep that aircraft (A340-600) from getting any more successful. As discussed in the Orders forum, this aircraft is initially targeted for two specific customers: Emirates Airlines and Cathay Pacific. EK has a specific performance requirement that both Boeing and Airbus are trying to match. At the moment, however, neither aircraft (773ER & A346) can do all EK want them to do, which is why they have been considering both aircraft (@ 8 A346s & 25 773ERs). However, if Boeing can get the -250ERX to match the payload/range requirements of EK, then they could potentially secure both orders, which I've already heard could easily be increased. We would therefore be looking at an EK order alone worth about 35-45 frames.

As far as CX goes, they are in a very similar position. They are going to lease 3 A346s from ILFC on a trial basis, to see if the aircraft can meet certain performance goals on some of their more lucrative routes. However, they have yet to make a desicion on a larger order. As Alain has already pointed out, CX's initial displeasure with GE's sole-supplier status has pretty much evaporated in response to promised performance goals and maintenance packages from GE. If the -250ERX can beat the -600 on payload/range stats, then it is possible CX could also order 10-15 of these aircraft, as operating costs would naturally be lower. Suddenly we have 2 customers worth nearly 60 orders.


Boeing nut,

As already mentioned by Alain, the agreement between Boeing and GE covers any 777 derivative with a MTOW of 700,000+ lbs. At the moment, this only covers the -200LR and -300ER. However, any derivative over that weight is covered, which would include the proposed -250ERX, any freighter based on the -200LR (which has been rumored), or the fanciful -300X Stretch.

Along those same lines, BA once approached Boeing about building a -300 with an MTOW hike, but without reaching that 700,000lb. limit. That way, BA could still order the Trent 800 for the "-300 Heavy" (or "-300ER Lite", however you want to look at it).

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
eg777er
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 4:45 am

More derivatives.....more development costs......lower orders......lower margins.....

I would sell those Boeing shares!
 
JAL
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 6:07 am

It's great that another version of the 777X is being planned but I think it will be difficult for Boeing to find 50 customers for the plan variant.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 6:41 am

keep in mind also that the 772LR only has about 10% of its R&D completed. Though much of the information attained from the 773ER will aid/speed that process... it's not completely ruled out that the 772LR's performance can be enhanced even beyond what it is now, therefore nullifying the need for an in-between model (performance-wise).
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
wn700driver
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 6:52 am

Wn700Driver, I agree. But remember, the 737-600 is a replacement for older 737-200/500 series. the 737-700 is a replacement for 737-300 aircraft, and the 737-800/900 is a replacement for 737-400 aircraft.


Hehehe, Oh, believe me, I know all about the baby boeing (I'll refer to my somewhat dated name here, lol). Looking at them, yeah I could see how that is argued, but the truth is that they were not so much replacements for the 100/200/500 and the 300s, as competitors for Airbus' much newer 318/19/20 designs. Honestly, I think Boeing should just have come up with an all new design (which rumor has it, they are now...). While the new wings & stab's are great (as are the new powerplants & avionics as well), it still feels much older and cheaper than the A32x series, and more importantly, Boeing's own 777 . They neeed an all new (Not a 50% 40 year old!), design to compete with AB & Bombardier/DeHavalland effectively in the small AC market.



Concorde, you are right, & I knew that the second after I posted. Consider myself corrected.  Smile
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brons2
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 7:00 am

about the 777-100, from my various readings...

Boeing shot down a 777-100X that would have been a long range variant, because airlines did not like the seat mile costs. It would have weighed near what the 772ER weighs with 50 less seats, which of course is an economic disaster despite 8000nm range.

What they have not considered and I wish they would, is a 777-100 based on the A market 772, which is much lighter than the B market 772ER/773 and the current 773ER/772LR. In fact, the A market airframe is LIGHTER than the A332! Now, if they could shrink that to 250 seats, it should make it even lighter, and should allow for a range of 6000-6500 nm or so with 35,000 gallons of jet a. That would give the 332 a run for it's money. But nobody wants to consider it.
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flight152
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 12:25 pm

More derivatives.....more development costs

No! Derivatives are just that, keep as much in common with the orginal airframe, making devolpment costs very low. Take the 764 which at its low order book has already broke even.
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Thu Nov 07, 2002 10:56 pm

The 764 is nowhere near breakeven!
The development costs in their entirerty haven't even been written off yet.
Check an annual report or a 10K.

 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing To Introduce New 777 Member: 777-250ERX

Fri Nov 08, 2002 7:25 am

Boeing on Thursday unveiled a new project which could dislodge the Sonic Cruiser - more conventional and fuel-efficient.

Walt Gilette - head of the Sonic Cruiser program - said Boeing would decide on speed vs. fuel efficiency with 250 seats at the end of 2002.

The "super-efficient airplane", would replace the 767. The "super-efficient aircraft" could use technology and manufacturing realisations made during the development of the Sonic Cruiser. However, this new "super-efficient aircraft" would be made up of 80% aluminium / aluminum allows, compared to 65% with the proposed Sonic Cruiser.

More information at the Financial Times website

Information was gathered from the above hyperlinked webpage. Full information can be viewed by clicking the above hyperlink. Information was not copied or pasted and was rephrased with the exception of the three quotes. The change of "airplane" to "aircraft" is mysterious and I offer no explanation.
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