MAH4546
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New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 7:47 am

It is still early, but the preliminary IATA 2003 summer schedules for Air Canada show the following new international services:

Quebec City-Paris; 29Mar03; 767:
AC 898 YQB 1740-0605 CDG Daily
AC 899 CDG 1400-1510 YQB Daily

Edmonton-Frankfurt; 30Mar03; 767:
AC 838 YEG 1710-1015 FRA MoSu
AC 839 FRA 1155-1310 YEG SaSu

Halifax-Frankfurt; 29Mar03; 767:
AC 838 YHZ 1910-0640 FRA ExMoSu
AC 839 FRA 1155-1410 YHZ ExSaSu

Toronto-Copenhagen returns; 01May02; 767:
AC 882 YYZ 1745-0735 CPH ExMoWeSu
AC 883 CPH 1040-1315 YYZ ExTuThMo

Toronto-Seoul; 29Mar03; A340-300:
AC 65 YYZ 1015-1410+1 ICN TuThSa
AC 66 ICN 1600-1615 YYZ WeFrSu

Toronto-Hong Kong; 29Mar03; A340-500:
AC 11 YYZ 1015-1410+1 HKG Daily
AC 6 HKG 1555-1830 YYZ Daily
(does not replace the second YVR-HKG service)

In addition, YVR-NGO is back, but YVR-TPE is not. Plus YVR-LHR will become triple daily and YYC-LHR double-daily. It is all preleminary, though. Everything can change.
a.
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 7:57 am

Hey MAH4546,

Where did you find this?

Mark
 
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 7:59 am

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
MAH4546
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:01 am

Yeah, sorry about that, forgot to include the link. I never knew about this IATA thing until recently. What exactly is the IATA? I've found lot's of random stuff going through the scheds. AA is launching JFK-BCN and JFK-FCO; IB is adding some MIA-Central America frequencies, etc.
a.
 
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:10 am

IATA is the International Air Transport Association

It is the industry body that co-ordinates activities between member carriers such as schedule and fare filing, coupon clearing, etc...

There is a wealth of information available through IATA and they are usually very helpful if you need it for research purposes.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:14 am

It looks like all the YYZers will sleep well tonight.

Double daily YYC-FRA, 4 daily YYZ-FRA, and no 2 daily YUL-FRA?

Its really discouraging being from YUL...

Mark
 
chrisa330
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:25 am

I don't think a lot of these will materialize - they don't have enough aircraft to cover this. For example: YYZ-HKG with the A340-500 requires 2 aircraft for a daily operation, but they also have the A345 running YVR-SYD. They only have 2 of these aircraft on order, unless they changes their mix between the 345 and 346 again.
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:40 am

Actually, daily 345 YYZ-HKG vv would require 3, not 2, 345's. Since a 345 could not return to YYZ within 24h of leaving. Same with the new YVR-SYD nonstop.....this would also require 3, not 2, 345 aircraft for it to be daily. Since AC will only have 2, not 6, 345's in service next summer, this timetable cannot be correct (it is called draft after all).

As for the other routes:
1. YYC-LHR was 2x daily 763 in summer 02....they are upgrading one flight to the 343.
2. YYZ-LHR stays at 6x daily.
3. I'm very surprized that YVR-LHR is 3x daily including 1 all-pax 744.
4. YYC-FRA is going from 1x daily 343 to a 2x daily 763.
5. I'm also surprized that YEG-FRA is 2x week while there is still no YEG-LHR.
6. YYZ-ICN 3x weekly is a new route.
7. YVR-PEK upgrades from a daily 763 to a 343.

So, the 6 AC 744's will be used as follows:
1. YYZ-LHR (combi)
2. YYZ-FRA (combi)
3. YYZ-FRA (combi)
4. YVR-LHR (all passenger)
5. YVR-NRT (all passenger)
6. YVR-KIX (all passenger).

It looks like all the YYZers will sleep well tonight.

Of course. We always do (despite the constant drone of aircraft overhead).

Its really discouraging being from YUL...

I bet.








I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
godbless
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:54 am

YYC-FRA is going from 1x daily 343 to a 2x daily 763.
Isn't YYC-FRA operated with a 763 at the moment? All the people I know that flew YYC-FRA on AC in the past year all got the 763.

If YEG-FRA is actually started I believe it will be a seasonal flight only. Isn't YEG-LHR flown durig the summer only too?

Max
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:59 am

Isn't YYC-FRA operated with a 763 at the moment?

Maybe, but that would be the winter schedule. YYC-FRA was a 343 in the summer. My comparisons are summer over summer.

If YEG-FRA is actually started I believe it will be a seasonal flight only. Isn't YEG-LHR flown durig the summer only too?

YEG-FRA is only 2x/week next summer....almost for sure summer/seasonal only. AC stopped flying YEG-LHR and YWG-LHR a few years ago.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
slawko
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:47 am

Mark is not going to be happy with this...not one bit!!! Oh well...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
flyguy1
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:50 am

I don't know how accurate this website is, but many airlines will be adding new, expanded international services next summer.
You can check to see what a favorite airline is doing for next summer
http://www.iata.org/sked/schedules.asp
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
B747-437B
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 10:22 am

Actually, daily 345 YYZ-HKG vv would require 3, not 2, 345's. Since a 345 could not return to YYZ within 24h of leaving.

YYZ-HKG is a 2 aircraft operation with 33 hr rotations inc. 2 hrs at HKG and 15 hr overnight at YYZ

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 10:35 am

Mark is not going to be happy with this...not one bit!!! Oh well....

I've never known him to be happy.

YYZ-HKG is a 2 aircraft operation with 33 hr rotations inc. 2 hrs at HKG and 15 hr overnight at YYZ

Not without backup aircraft. 2 aircraft cannot handle full sked ops for a 6-mos period with no mx days.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
slawko
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 10:38 am

This is an airbus afterall, and a new one at that, Im sure there will be a number of delayed and xld flights in the begining, no way that 2 planes could handle a load like that. Could it be that they are planning on adding an extra aircraft or two? I understand they still hold options on A340NG's.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
RP TPA
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:03 pm

Well, this will sure take some time to digest. Just a few preliminary thoughts:

It appears that the elapsed flight time for YYZ-HKG is roughly the same as YVR-HKG. How can this be? The YYZ-HKG route must be a much longer distance, even taking into account the polar track. Someone please explain this one to me.

It seems like the YYZ-ICN flt will be a direct one, with a stop in YVR. So, it's not non-stop, just an extension of the YVR-ICN run.

MAH4546 said it best. Everything can change.
 
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:15 pm

It appears that the elapsed flight time for YYZ-HKG is roughly the same as YVR-HKG. How can this be?

Simple. The A343 with the CFMs is a slow-assed piece of shit compared to the A345 with the Trents.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:20 pm

It seems like the YYZ-ICN flt will be a direct one, with a stop in YVR. So, it's not non-stop, just an extension of the YVR-ICN run.

According to the schedule, YVR-ICN will get a daily 763, while YYZ-ICN will run 3x weekly nonstop with the 343......the 343 will not stop in YVR.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
RP TPA
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 1:24 pm

B747....

Thank you for your in-depth technical analysis......LOL
 
wolfy
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YVR-TPE

Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:25 pm

Good news that they are having more flights next summer, but I really hate to know that YVR-TPE will not be back. I guess, yeah, everything can change, as the booking system still shows YVR-TPE next summer.

Thx for the info, interesting!  Smile

Regards,

Wolfy
 
Trvlr
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:29 pm

Any news on transborder routes? I know it wasn't in the IATA presentation, but I'm just wondering if there's any new info floating out there somewhere.

Aaron G.
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:38 pm

Of course I went wrong somewhere...

AC874 Montreal-Frankfurt A330-300, Boeing B74E is one of AC's best international flights in terms of load factor. This summer, I swear the flight was oversold every day, until they brought a second daily to FRA from YUL. AC's route planning decides "HEY, lets make the 2nd flight depart within one hour from the original departure AC874, same for the arrival. At the same time, lets program the route LESS than one month from the start-up"..... and the FLIGHT was still full....

They also added a 2nd flight to YYc but on a 2 weekly basis. The end result, Montreal will be stuck with the same stupid overbooked AC874, while YYC gets a 2nd. More insulting, YEG and YHZ-FRA which are nice, but using this logic, every city in the United States of America over 300,000 in pop. should get a flight to their nearest largest European alliance hub...... and Id love to see DL, AA, NW, CO, US get of their Hub track, and add PWM-CDG or MKE-AMS.

So here we are again with the same dilemma Montreal's have been facing for the last 4 years. Air Canada's international flights for the most part, all leave with consistent load factors of 90% + non-rev's. Air Canada also saw what it doubted (Milton told me to my face that OS would never survive in Montreal), Austrian do quite well especially with their code-share. No Montrealers are stuck with a half-assed airport only because AC convinced the ADM and the BTMM (board of trade of Montreal metro) that YUL was to become a hub for AC. A hub with routes to TLV, MXP, FCO, BEY, FRA, LHR, BRU, CDG etc etc. AC continuously watches high load factors, only acts when the pressure is on by other carriers, and continues to send the excess to YYZ.

The expansion $850 million until 2009, near $1.4 billion for 2020, is mostly in part for Air Canada to have better transfer facilities, gain more VIP rooms, better baggage systems, more gates, more counters..... Milton stood before Montrealers (as he is the one calling for the expansion) saying that this expansion will allow "Quantum Leaps" the "Munich of Canada"..

Of course AC's gotta worry about their financial side of the picture, but having a YUL smaller alternative to YYZ isnt such a destructive idea. Even Robert Milton himself said that this was to be Montreal's potential. He predicted great things for YUL when I met him, saying that their core-routes (those that will never change) are some of the strongest in their network..

Anyway by the like of AC"s wish list, Calgary will have the same number of trans-atlantic as Montreal. While Calgary is quite prosperous, its international traffic is 1/4 the size of Montreal's. I dont expect big things from AC, but I do expect eventual 2X YUL-LHR, 2X YUL-FRA, 3X YUL-CDG, and maybe even YUL-MUC, YUL-MXP. These are all viable routes with viable demand. They are also a multi-tude of frequencies/destinations to this mini-hub that could also be considered, without infringing on Toronto's loads..

I will discount that the demand isnt there. KLM has reported the highest load factor per flight in its whole network from Montreal, primarily shuffling the Italy and India markets. Austrian is quite happy, BA is status quo, AF is adding a 3rd flight, RAM is going daily, MS is gonna go YUL-CAI non-stop, LH is interested in Montreal, CSA is going to do YUL-PRague without YYZ feed, and AC is constantly overbooked to its international destinations.

Is Air Canada waiting for more gate space? Is Air Canada waiting for the Dorval expansion to be completed given the absolutely awful facilities that they have? Or is Dorval pax just gonna be shuffled to YYZ, YYC, YVR and other hubs..Im anxious to see this, but im not very encouraged. Im encouraged with everybody else happy with their business at YUL, expanding their business as well. As for AC's, they're flights are not gonna get fuller than they are on the international side, because they cant, they are already full... (of course some dates in Nov, early Dec, Mid-Jan are open because its real low-season)..

So in short, Im pro-AC YYZ hub. But Im also pro-AC YUL secondary hub that will not hurt the YYZ main hub. With the new installations that promise to be world-class, easy, efficient, and friendly, I wonder if AC will consider taking a better look at us. Ive seen the plans, and they are quite good..

Mark

 
jcs17
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 4:41 pm

YQB-CDG? Shocking! I remember this topic being posted a couple months back with AF proposing the service. I said it would never happen...looks like I've been proven wrong once again. Heres a new prediction; it wont last later 1 Jan 2004
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
aad665
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 5:37 pm

YQB-CDG will never start...just a sweet for poeple living in quebec city.

aad665
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:10 pm

Lets start London,Ont-London....

Mark
 
RP TPA
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:10 pm

FLYYUL....

YXU-LHR will start when AC re-starts ONT-YYZ.....So, you can travel from Ontario to Toronto Ontario to London Ontario to London.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
lymanm
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 12:53 am

Jeez, no Ottawa-Frankfurt. Jeez!
buhh bye
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:13 am

AC874 Montreal-Frankfurt A330-300, Boeing B74E is one of AC's best international flights in terms of load factor.

Load factor means relatively little....it's profit that counts. Given that Germany is in recession & the YUL economy is not doing well, the YUL-FRA is likely low yielding.

More insulting, YEG and YHZ-FRA which are nice

I agree that 5x weekly YHZ-FRA is odd.

I do expect eventual 2X YUL-LHR, 2X YUL-FRA, 3X YUL-CDG

I agree with you Mark.

I will discount that the demand isnt there. KLM has reported the highest load factor per flight in its whole network from Montreal

There is a difference between demand and "profitable" demand.

Milton told me to my face that OS would never survive in Montreal

Well, what does Milty know about OS profitability? Besides, is he accountable for comments made to a teenager? (No offense).

Finally, any expansion by AC at YYZ is not necessarily at the expense of YUL. AC simply allocates resources based on profitable demand. At the moment (ie, this decade/generation), it appears to be YYZ.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:26 am

Please take note that the schedules is just a draft that was sent before November 1, 2002. There will be still major changes from now till next March.

For example: UA's draft for 2003 Summer still see Washington-Dusseldorf flight on. But UA annnounce to drop this route days after they hand the draft in.
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:59 am

Neil,

AC874/AC875 is among AC's most profitable trans-atlantic flights in their system. I have a list of the top 10 in 2000. That was the only thing Uncle Milty gave to me  Smile I continue to speak to him, I saw him last week.. he's the neighbour of one of my good buddy, so ill have a word with him about this non-sense Big grin

Neil, please dont say that the Montreal economy is not doing well. It has out-produced Toronto in terms of absolute jobs created in the last two years. It is no.1 in non-residential construction for 2001/2002. Now I knwo this is very short-term and its nowhere near Toronto's economy, im just saying that things are much better than you think they are.

As for the German market,Ill use this example.. AC874 on 12jun 2002, out of 260Y booked on a 228Y seater, 168 were going beyond FRA, and 107 beyond German. Its not about Germany, its the massive ever-growing network that LH is building at FRA/MUC. And right now, one A330-300/B74E will not suffice. hence AC's addition of a 2nd flight to FRA last summer, with again, one month of sales before inauguration, and AC"S GENIUS "lets place the flight one hour from the existing A333 to FRA"... genius I tell you!! Still full......

Once again in short, I see the existence of YUL smaller alternative to a busy congested YYZ. Im glad that you agree Neil (LOL!) that YUL should eventually have 2X to LHR, 2X to FRA, 3X to CDG etc etc.. that will be a first Big grin But I think its viable, and good for hubbing on a small scale. I believe that putting too many eggs in one basket is not such a great thing for AC..

Mark



 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:23 am

AC874/AC875 is among AC's most profitable trans-atlantic flights in their system. I have a list of the top 10 in 2000.

AC does not release profitability figures by route. Even if they did, 2000 data is now out-of date. This is 2002.

Neil, please dont say that the Montreal economy is not doing well.

As long as Quebec remains a have-not province, it continues to lag the national average in terms of PCI. When Quebec can stand on its own feet (without help from Ontario or Alberta), then its economy will be doing well.

As for the German market,Ill use this example.. AC874 on 12jun 2002, out of 260Y booked on a 228Y seater, 168 were going beyond FRA, and 107 beyond German. Its not about Germany, its the massive ever-growing network that LH is building at FRA/MUC. And right now, one A330-300/B74E will not suffice.

The route is obviously not profitable then if AC is cutting back.

I see the existence of YUL smaller alternative to a busy congested YYZ

YYZ is not really congested. Then T-NEW opens, we will be even less congested.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
BO__einG
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:49 am

I like how YYC is being involved with some of the larger more active airports like YVR,YZ, and UL.

As for the Quebec City-CDG: Are you kidding me?!!
Why not just donate one of its flights to YUL or YOW.

YYC has had the 2x 763 YYC-LHR since June 1st. (AC851/0, 831,0)
This previous was a 744 in May and A340 in April and before.
The 2x FRA also took shape during the summer time. (AC845/4, 859,8)
Now as someone had said its only a few times a week.
It would be nice to see A340 service back or even better, possible A345/6 service to YYC.
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
slawko
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:53 am

If you are going to use a 763 for QB-CDG then why not start the flight off in YOW, im sure you could get half a 767 full of people in Ottawa and then go on to QB and get another half load...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:01 am

Neil,

Who are you to claim that Quebec is a have not province? Are you listening to your bias, or to statistics. BTW, the Ontario unemployment rate is only o.5% lower than Quebec... so congrats.

Nobody said AC was downgrading AC874/875... and infact, the route has only gotten stronger.

And I hear that T1 and T2 together are quite congested. Ive transferred there UNFORTUNATELY..... but its gonna get better no doubt..


Mark
 
Rai
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:18 am

Actually, I don’t find YYZ that congested. I fly there A LOT and I’ve never been anything worse than the second plane lined up to take off. I think T2 and T1 are deplorable and in desperate need of getting replaced. If they seem congested, it is because they are cramped, narrow and small. I do feel that the YYZ ATC needs to work out a more efficient way of handling their movements. There’s no reason why that airport needs to use both runways for the use of both take-offs and landings.

As for the “have” province designation, I believe that Alberta is the only province to have that status. That label refers to whether or not a province sends or receives transfer payments from the other provinces. Last time I checked, Alberta was the only one under than category, but Ontario may have joined the list.

Anyways, to the topic. I’m surprised about some of these routes. Mainly YYZ-ICN, YHT-FRA and YEG-FRA. I’m also surprised that YVR-TPE was not reinstated. I think that route makes much more sense than the others. YEG has had a FRA flight before and it didn’t last. It makes more sense to funnel everyone through YYC.
 
spyderz
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:35 am

While YYZ can be congested at times, it doesn't compare with congestion at other major airports like ORD or BOS. What YYZ does have problems with is terminal congestion, since T1 and T2 are extremely below par. Also, while T3 is a lot newer, it seems a bit empty and I'm not too fond of it. Fortunately as YYZ717 said, T-New should really alleviate many of these problems. As for the routes, we should all know these are draft routes and that we shouldn't be suprised to see many of these not occur. While Lufthansa doesn't have their schedules up, I'm suprised to see no second daily YVR-FRA. That old 742 was quite full during the summer, and a second flight probably could be supported (i.e. 763), yet yields are probably quite low. Maybe it has something to do with AC and Lufthansa agreements. YVR-LHR could also support another 763, for this summer I flew the route, and both the 763 and 744 was packed. Good to see international expansion for AC, but many of these routes could go the way of many of Milton's transborder routes.
 
174thfwff
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:18 pm

Sorry I deleted this, however I felt like it was a copyright violation. It turns out that it isn't and I apologize for my mistake.


::BUMP::

-174thfwff
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:24 pm

2 provinces are designates as "have" provinces.....Ontario & Alberta. The other 8 are "have not". Which means that equalization payments flow from ON & AB to to the other 8. BC was a "have" province until a couple of years ago.

SK has the lowest rate of equalization transfer of the 8 "have not" provinces and may join AB and ON on the "have" side on a couple of years.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:57 pm

Yes, Neil is in denial that the government in power receives most of its contributions and support in the Southern Ontario region. Of course this government would not favor TORONTO OR anything...

Bull about your equalizations payments, the recent study shows that Quebec is severely underfunded vis a vis the province of Toronto errr Ontario. Oh wait, dont forget the slight media bias. Hey Neil, where have all your tourists gone, oh wait there in Montreal...... find the stats yourself buddy Big grin

Neil Wilson: chief expert in the domains of economics and denial. Hobbies: Likes to ignore statistics and trends. Occupation: antogonizing the hell out of Montrealers. Respected Users: The Whole Planet Toronto crew  Big thumbs up

Vive Toronto libre my friend, I cant wait to see it for myself Sunday (maybe!)

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:46 pm

Bull about your equalizations payments, the recent study shows that Quebec is severely underfunded vis a vis the province of Toronto errr Ontario.

See the following link, which lists the 7 (now 8) have-not provinces (which receive equalization payments from the 3 (now 2) "have" provinces):

http://www.onetenwest.org/Articles/QuintenDurgens.htm

Also, the following links:

http://www.aims.ca/Media/2002/prjun2102.htm

http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/equalization.html

Each link is a different source which identifies the "have not" provinces. The last link shows that Quebec is the LARGEST recipient of aid (from hard working ON and AB) of any province.

Neil Wilson: chief expert in the domains of economics and denial. Hobbies: Likes to ignore statistics and trends. Occupation: antogonizing the hell out of Montrealers. Respected Users: The Whole Planet Toronto crew

You're 19 huh?







I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 4:14 pm

19 huh, its all uphill for me... youll be worrying about your wheelchair soon...
 
Sabena 690
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:44 pm

Nothing known about a possible YYZ-BRU flight?

This rumour was going on some months ago...

Regards,
Frederic
 
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yyz717
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:09 pm

Each link is a different source which identifies the "have not" provinces. The last link shows that Quebec is the LARGEST recipient of aid (from hard working ON and AB) of any province.

Mark, did you read these articles? They really explain the poor state of the Quebec economy.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
nicolasrolland
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:52 pm


Ok might be sad for YUL but
as a traveller who love to travel to asia
without having to go thru US... well YYZ-ICN and YYZ-HKG
is quite interesting especially in a 340-500  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Hope they have competitive fares  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

When is the Airbus 340-500 being delivered to Aircanada ?
should be very soon now  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Nick
 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Thu Nov 14, 2002 3:35 am

Neil,

You need to understand that I dont really care about Quebec as a whole, or its economy. Ill admit this to you, outside Montreal, Quebec is an isolated province, poor and under-developed. Thats why most Montrealers will agree that Quebec has two worlds, Montreal and the rest. I only care what goes on in the Montreal metro area, and what goes on here is totally different than the rest of Quebec (even though we generate 70% of tax revenue for the whole province). Montreal is the one where 85% of the immigrants go, where 80% of the jobs are created etc etc etc.

I've never disagreed with the poor state of the Quebec economy, but is on a much different spectrum. Thats why I cannot wait for a new government to be elected. Hopefully people in Montreal will have more say, more votes (again 70% tax revenue, 45% of the vote), and the government could stop wasting its money on dead-dreams (sovreignty), and at the same time, using billions of dollars in loans to e-commere companies that are falling one by one.

Meanwhile in Montreal, the population has finally started to gain some growth, it's no.1 in jobs, no.1 in tourism growth, no.1 in non-residential construction, and is expected to be no.2 in GDP growth for 2003. Those are impressive numbers contrasted to your "dark DOOM" view of Montreal...

Say what you want from Quebec, I wouldnt mind if Montreal separated from Quebec either, and most will probably agree with that  Big thumbs up

Mark
P.S like the famous quote, Montreal is nothing like the rest of Quebec, and nothing like the rest of Canada...

 
flyyul
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:54 am

Why YYZ-BRU? This is clearly a YUL market.

Mark
 
LJ
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:56 am

Please take note that the schedules is just a draft that was sent before November 1, 2002. There will be still major changes from now till next March.

100% correct. I'm still waiting for the three times daily AMS-ZRH which was on last years EZY draft winterschedule.

If I'm correct, these draft schedules represent the slots requested at the IATA Schedule Conference (which was held the last few days) and usually they schedule more flights than they have planes. They've untill a certain date to return these slots in the pool (in case of service to slot restricted airports).

In the mean time: enjoy the prospect of many new services because you never know if they materialise
 
Sabena 690
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:32 am

Sorry, I mean YUL-BRU.

Any chance for this route?

Regards,
Frederic
 
SafeFlyer
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:22 am

Although this is only a "draft" schedule, I simply can't understand AC as for their moves. 5 weekly YHZ-FRA. Before a YOW-FRA. Ottawa Intl is in the middle of a large expansion plan that will more than triple the current airport capacity. Ottawa is a city with a very low unemployment rate with wealthy citizens (yes, we still have a few high-tech workers and a load of federal government workers) and a population of 1K (including Gatineau area) which is slightly more than YHZ may I say. As for a daily YQB-CDG, it's quite understandable considering the tourism in the Quebec City area and the French speakers that wants to visit Paris and France. Of course it's mainly low-yield, but with all of the Quebec government offices in that city, it could fill up the J class.
A remark to both Mark and Neil:

As a Quebecker myself, I find your comments on Quebec quite biaised and unjustified. First, Quebec is not a "poor" province. Montreal is not the only wealthy town Mark and Quebec City has been recently the fastest growing high tech area in Canada according to Radio-Canada
You'll need to do a search as I'm still not maniac enough to link all the information I learn every night during the 10'o clock news bulletin. Gatineau for instance, is a suburb of Ottawa which means that it's full of well-remunerated civil servants. Our province is the 2nd largest in Canada in term of population, and the fact that it is the largest in term of territory (excluding NWT, Yukon and Nunavut) adds to the fact that we must provide facilities and services to people sparse everywhere. Mismanagement from the PQ and exaggerated subsidies inflates the problem. Even tough Ontarians have much lower taxes, the cost of electricity is 4x more in T.O than in the rest of Quebec. Period (and completely off-topic I agree although this had to go from my head).
After reading all of the comments posted by both of you in Mtl vs T.O battles, I've came to conclude that you both behave as elementary school kids. But that is only my opinion. I've always been direct and will always be.

Back to topic;
I've noticed that the A345 seating config. shows only a two-class layout. Weren't they suppose to add a new "First class Suite"?
I find it hard to believe that people fly 15-hour nonstop. 'Would always prefer a layover in Vancouver for instance.

Regards, SafeFlyer
 
Skywatcher
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RE: New AC Routes: YEG/YHZ-FRA; YQB-CDG; YYZ-ICN/CPH

Thu Nov 14, 2002 10:23 am

Is it time for "why can't we all just be friends" yet ?

I quess I'll never understand the YYZers superiority complex nor why the YULers let it get under their skin so much.

Both cities have strengths and weakness, pros and cons. Just like anywhere else on the planet.

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