CX747
Topic Author
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Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 1:30 pm

It seems that Cathay Pacific is increasingly interested in Boeing's 747-400QLR along with several other airlines. A fuesalage plug and more fuel capacity are being added by Boeing to meet their demands.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
Topic Author
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:03 pm

Other airlines are China Airlines, Singapore International Airlines, Korean Airlines and Qantas.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:25 pm

Cathay is always looking into new versions of aircraft manufacturers come out with, like the A380, A345, 747-400X, 747-400ER, 747-400QXLR and now the 747-400QLR, as well as the 777-200ER, 777-200LR and 777-300ER. Does not mean we will buy them all. Just window shopping, that's all.
 
cwapilot
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RE: CXflyboy

Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:33 pm

Yes, you're right....and you just repeated what CX747 said...he never said CX was going to buy it, he said they are looking into it. It also seems they are working with Boeing to refine the potential product...a little more than window shopping.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:35 pm

Cwapilot,

I guess you know many things about how CX do their business ?

 
BOEING747400
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:55 pm

What about Thai Airways? They have the most diverse fleet of all airlines so far up to now but haven't ordered any 345, 346, 744ER, 744QXLR, 772LR, and 773ER yet. I hope they will order these exciting new aircraft soon.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 3:07 pm

Cathay is one of those Asian airlines with a habit of bending over completely backwards for RollsRoyce, no matter the costs/consequences... so Boeing had better have an RR option (if not exclusivity, as was previously contemplated) for the 744XQLR if they want CX to buy it.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Jaws707
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:42 pm

A few months ago I remember reading that CX was looking into the possibility of leasing 6-8 A380's. Has there been any news regarding this? They definatley have some routes that can support it, so I think we will eventually be seeing the A380 in CX colors.
 
na
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:28 pm

Being one of the world´s top ten airlines, and seeing that their newest 747-400 is already 8 years old, its about time CX finalises its future plans for the top end of their fleet, don´t you think?
They´re for sure a hot candidate to be one of the next airlines to place orders for Jumbo aircraft.
 
Guest

RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:40 pm

I agree that CX wants aircraft whether made by Boeing or Airbus to have Rolls Royce engines as options. That is why they went for the RR Trent 556 powered A340-600 over the exclusive GE90-115 powered 777-300ER.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Thu Nov 14, 2002 6:45 pm

Sorry Tedski,

There are many rumours they WILL get the 777-300ER.
 
Guest

RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:04 am

I heard they declined the 777-300ER because of the exclusive GE90 and ordered more RR Trent 772 powered A330s.
 
cwapilot
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RE: Hkgspotter

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:38 am

Ignorant as usual. I didn't claim to know anything more than anyone else about CX's business. All I pointed out is that one poster is arguing with the other, yet merely repeating what the other said. And, secondly, working with a company to further refine a product is more than mere window shopping, whether it's CX or not. It doesn't mean CX will buy them, but it does mean they are looking into it further than some are willing to admit.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
raggi
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:33 am

tedski, how can the 333 and the 773ER be compared?. even though you obviously have a problem with the GE90, don`t rule out the 773ER for cathay. Rollout today!! one good-looking bird, by the way

raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
gigneil
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 7:41 am

I don't think TEDSKI stated he had a problem with the GE-90. I think he was mentioning a well known fact that Cathay has problems with anything not RR powered.

While I agree, I also wonder about the A340-300s Cathay has. They're CFMI powered...

N
 
0A340
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:03 am

Gigneil ...

You're commiting the 'sin' of mentioning the A340-300 and a certain member in the same post!!!

Be prepared to hear how much this member dislikes the 'slow climbing rate' and 'problem to complete take-off with full payload'...

 Wink/being sarcastic

Sorry, you asked for it!

George
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:05 am

...and after operating GE-French CFMs on A343s why wouldn't Cathay try the big GE90-115s as offered on the 300ER.



 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:32 am

Our fleet manager has just returned from Boeing after having given the 777-300ER a good look. It would not be surprising if we ordered these, although we may just order more normal 773s. I am fairly confident that we will be sending our 777s to Europe within a year or two. Moscow is the latest rumour. I doubt we will buy any more 747s unless they are freighters. Our CEO hates Airbuses but we will not fly twin engined aircraft across the ocean. Airbuses are costing a lot of money in maintenance and as a result the engineers all hate Airbuses too. Expect more Boeing purchases. There, that's all I know.
 
747-451
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:58 pm

and I'm looking into buying a new BMW 540...that doesn't mean I'm going to buy one, now, does it???
 
CX747
Topic Author
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:58 pm

I thank you for the insider info from the CEO Cx flyboy. It is good to hear from you. I find it interesting that the current CEO is not an Airbus fan, and that aircraft are more expensive to operate than the Boeing stable mates in maintenance terms. (Sorry but a small smile here with the quote, "You can pay now or pay later, either way your going to pay.) How is life in the 777?

747-400QLR & Cathay Pacific: From what I have heard and read though, CX is more than just "window shopping" in regards to the 747-400QLR. They are actually defining the aircraft to meet their requirements and Boeing is listening. Cathay is pressing Boeing for 8,000nm range along with pax and cargo increase. Boeing is meeting the demands with a 80' plug forward of the wing which will allow for the demanded increase in pax & cargo along with increasing the size of the horizontal and vertical stabalizer fuel tanks. 10 airframes also be the what the initial order will look like.

777-300ER & Cathay Pacific: Let's stop the rumor about CX and their problems with the 777-300ER not having RR engines. INITIALLY, they were skeptical of the situation, but have now come full circle due to the tremendous deals GE offers and the fact that the engine is a winner.

"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
sllevin
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:44 pm

"meeting the demands with a 80' plug forward of the wing"

Wow! That's going to be heck of a stretch to balance!  Smile

Steve
 
TK
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:47 pm

HATE is a strong word. Perhaps, preference towards one thing over another, is a better description. Nothing's perfect. The fact is that both Europe and America builds great jetliners and each shows advantages in various aspects over the other. Airbus and Boeing both act as catalysts to promote each other's productivity and creativity to give the world's airlines a better fleet of airplanes. Biases towards certain things may be more pronounced in different locations but IMO should not be used as a be-all and end-all outlook of the whole.

TK
 
Guest

RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:55 pm

Gigneil, don't pay any attention to OA340 he doesn't know the quality and performance of Boeing made jets which why carriers and passengers prefer the 777 over the A340-300.
 
brons2
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:07 pm

Boeing is meeting the demands with a 80' plug forward of the wing which will allow for the demanded increase in pax & cargo along with increasing the size of the horizontal and vertical stabalizer fuel tanks. 10 airframes also be the what the initial order will look like.

An 80 foot stretch! That oughta put the A380 to shame on capacity! What will it take to get it off the ground? 4 GE90-115's? lol.

 Big grin
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
TK
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:12 pm

TEDSKI,

You said, "Passengers prefer the 777 over A340-300."

My question is, do you have any evidence to substantiate this claim?

TK
 
n949wp
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:23 pm

TK, don't fall into TEDSKI's trap!!  Wink/being sarcastic

'949
 
NWA742
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:10 pm

My question is, do you have any evidence to substantiate this claim?

Almost every survey I've ever read of passenger preference of an aircraft, the 777 has undoubtedly beat the A340.

http://www.pyramid.ch/airguide0101.htm

Most likely you could do a simple search on Lycos or Google for passenger surveys or aircraft preference data, and you will find that most if not all of them point to the 777 over the A340.


-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
TK
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:20 pm

NWA,

If you know anything about statistics, then you will know that surveys are among the most UNRELIABLE forms of statistics. They are useful in certain situations but their unrealiability is notorius. Not to mention the presence of experimenter and investigator biases. The fact that biased statistics can be used to advocate notions or claims by organizations, particularly commercial organizations with an agenda is a known fact. Search results from google simply will not do. There are lies, there are damned lies and there are statistics. Know how to use statistics objectively and critically.

TK
 
gigneil
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:50 pm

Heh, its fun to be fought over.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I've never been on an A340-300. I've been on one of US's A330-300s, and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Same plane less engines, I s'pose... but I'm assuming the A330's climb performance is better.

That being said, I love the 777 and fly on it constantly DEN-IAD, IAD-SFO, DEN-SFO, etc, and used to fly it IAD-the rest of the earth... I prefer it to any other aircraft on those routes.

But I avoid 737s like a leper's touch... even the NGs. When the NGs came out I went out of my way to fly on 5 or 10 of them and I still prefer my happily little seat on a UA A320. Is it just me or do A320's land themselves MUCH more gently than 737s? Or is it the pilots? Hmm...

Heh safe to say that the polls and whatnot are more based on the airline's choice of interiors than the plane... as many people state millions of times, 3 out of 5 or so idiots think they're on a 747 no matter what widebody they're on.

I prefer the Envoy product on US's A330 to United's C class any day. But that doesn't mean I prefer the A330 to the 777 or vice versa... I just like one seat better than the other. And that's what most polls reflect.

N
(I like to root for Airbus cause they're #2... having a #2 improves quality in any industry)
 
0A340
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 1:51 am

"Gigneil, don't pay any attention to OA340 he doesn't know the quality and performance of Boeing made jets which why carriers and passengers prefer the 777 over the A340-300."

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 2:17 am

Cx_flyboy:

I found your comment about your CEO to be exaggerated. How long has he been in that position? Around 5, right? Under him, CX had added new orders of 333, 343, and arranged leases for 3 343s and 3 346s. He couldn't have hated Airbus that much...  Confused
 
N79969
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 2:29 am

I heard that A300s are maintenance pigs but I did not realize that the newer Airbus also have this characteristic. I find it interesting that the CX CEO hates the Airbus. He can't hate them that much since they recently ordered more 330s and have 345s on the way. CX, like UA, ordered the Airbus initially to keep Boeing honest. I think that strategy has probably run its course.

I hope CX does order the 744QLR and actually any other Boeing.

Does anyone know the status of their freighter selection between the 757 and A300?

CXFlyboy,

Why won't your company do ETOPS flights? ETOPS is a proven concept. It seems odd.

 
0A340
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 2:50 am

N79969
"I heard that A300s are maintenance pigs but I did not realize that the newer Airbus also have this characteristic "

Dear N79969,

it would be interesting to back your claims with data, because if you don't I will claim that your hearing ability is seriously selective.

For example, compared to same cycles, same age, same hours, how does an A300 fare vs a 767? Probably some airlines with experience in both frames, like American Airlines might have some data.

Also, exacly which "newer Airbus ... have this characteristic" are you referring to, and where do you base your position?

If you don't have facts, but simply you're projecting your anti AB feelings, then please retract.

Thanks,

George
 
N79969
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CX

Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:14 am

OA340,

Note I used the term "heard." I have a cousin who works in MRO and has worked on many types of aircraft. He told me that the A300 and ATR42 are maintenance pigs and are not well liked. He ranked the L1011 as the best-built aircraft he worked on.

I never hide that I strongly prefer Boeing to Airbus but I have paid compliments to Airbus aircraft on many occasions, particularly the 319/320. I don't know about you but I will take CX_Flyboy's word on what Cathay thinks of various aircraft.

"it would be interesting to back your claims with data, because if you don't I will claim that your hearing ability is seriously selective."

Big deal. Claim what you want.
 
0A340
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:22 am

N79969,

Thanks for agreeing with me that your claim is totally unfounded. You admit that there are no data backing this up, no other proof than your cousin's words, which can be as subjective as anything on this world.

Any given time, compare a brand-new, few cycle aircraft X vs an old, high cycle aircraft Y and any cousin will tell us that Y is a maintenance pig.

Thanks again,
George



 
N79969
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:34 am

OA340,

I'm not sure why I'm responding to you. I trust my cousin's word. I would say my claim has basis in fact. You can go dig up spreadsheets and wade in them if you choose. I really don't care. Go have fun.

"Any given time, compare a brand-new, few cycle aircraft X vs an old, high cycle aircraft Y and any cousin will tell us that Y is a maintenance pig."

What a fabulous insight. His comparison was not old versus new aircraft. The L1011 is about as old as the A300.
_________________________________________________________________

Anyway, does anyone know about CX's freighter selection? Their lack of ETOPS?



 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 4:17 am

We have 180 Minute ETOPS so that is not an issue. Our managers are simply very reluctant in flying a twin over such a large expanse of Ocean, and so are many of our pilots, including me.

As for our CEO hating Airbus, do you really think that his personal opinion would sway the entire company against making an order which on paper made great financial sense? He is not entirely stupid and he is running a business, not a personal hobby. If the economics look good and there are sound reasons for buying a certain type, then that type will be bought. We have a purchasing department who along with other departments like Flight Ops, Marketing, Inflight Services and Engineering..etc will get together and work out what aircraft best suits our needs. The CEO cannot then completely reverse any decision and go for an option which doesn't make sense. We are not some corrupt family/government airline! I am not particularly fond of the A340, but if told to fly it, I will!
 
N79969
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 5:13 am

Cx_Flyboy,

Easy there. I think a CEO's personal preferences can carry a lot of weight. For example, I don't see Gordon Bethune buying Airbus no matter what kind of deal they offer him. The same applies to Southwest. It could happen but probably not. My point was that your CEO's dislike of Airbus is somewhat less than visceral. The same seems to be true for CX engineers who do not like Airbus. This is an observation and I am not refuting anything you said.

CX's reluctance to use twins on EROPS flights is very interesting to me. From what I have read, twins have lower diversion rates than the four-engined aircraft. As you know, all sorts of carriers operate twins overwater: Qantas, Air France, ANA, United, and so on. Some of these companier are pretty conservative yet they operate quite a few ETOPS flights. Could you elaborate on why CX management and pilots are so reluctant? I am genuinely curious.
 
gigneil
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 8:59 am

I think it goes pretty easily to say that while a lot of those carriers do fly ETOPS routes frequently, not a lot of them fly routes that are of the same distance or topography that CX will be flying with the 346... and on the way back to HKG I'm sure there are some economics involved that ETOPS makes more difficult.

Especially 180 minute ETOPS JFK-HKG. How much extra effort is it to get the 207 minute extension if you already have 180?

N
 
B-HOP
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Sat Nov 16, 2002 9:54 am

HK people do NOT understand the concept of ETOPS, they think if you are flying accross the ocean, is 4 better than 2. I remember my mum said to me in 96, are these twins (UA777) safe to get accross the 'pond'? Now, that is what HK people think.
Live life to max!!!
 
N79969
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Mon Nov 18, 2002 11:01 pm

ETOPS is usually a good business practice as well as a validated operational practice. I don't how different HKG's geography (for transpacific route planning) would be compared to say Melbourne, Los Angeles, or a number of other cities. Any other insights into this?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:26 am

Well, for one thing... HKG can still be flown from the USA under ETOPS180/207 if granted, but MEL (as a south Pacific destination) cannot receive higher than ETOPS138 as regulation currently stands... that's an advantage for HKG however, not a fault.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Tue Nov 19, 2002 4:57 am

Gigneil,

Actually, many airlines fly ETOPS flights over topogophy that is extremely similar, if not identical, to CX's routes. Continental, China Southern, Asiana, ANA, KAL, Singapore, United, American, and soon JAL, all fly 777s across the Pacific. Remember also that Continental has been flying the 777 HKG-EWR for some time now, without any problems.


I think, taking into account both previous information, and what Cx flyboy recently stated, its fair to say that CX is a fairly conservative company. However, both ANA and JAL were in similar philosophical positions, and both have decided to fly 777s across the Pacific. IMHO, if Boeing can get the economics to work for CX, they could be a prime candidate for the -300ER. The payload is much higher, the twin naturally has lower trip costs, and I think, even with ETOPS practices taken into account, maintenance is going to be either equal, or slightly in favor of the twin. The only issue is the -300ERs range disadvantage, which could prove to be a deciding factor.

BTW, I've also heard that CX's initial displeasure with GE's sole supplier status has been overcome by the latter's package incentives if the -300ER is chosen.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
N79969
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Tue Nov 19, 2002 5:08 am

Hamlet69,

Do you know why Cathay is that conservative about using twins over the Pacific? There have many other conservative, safety conscious companies that have been flying twins extended overwater for years now: Qantas, United, Air France, among others. Cathay's reluctance seems overly cautious.

Also do you know whether they have selected a new freighter type?

Thanks.

 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6026
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:04 am

We are almost certainly getting A300 freighters for Air Hong Kong/DHL to fly. I am guessing they will be in the new yellow DHL colours. We will be getting around 8 PW powered A300-600s. Maybe ex-Korean?

As for the 777-300ER, I believe that we may well be a customer. The 777-300 is going to replace the 744 on certain European routes eventually, and it comes down to whether we fly normal 777-300s with uprated engines, or simply buy new 777-300ERs. The 744s are getting old and Cathay owns most of them. They are eager to sell them early while there is still a good market for them, although this may include a sale and lease back.

I would not feel comfortable flying a twin across the ocean. If one goes, you've only got one left. I know all the statistics about ETOPS, I fly ETOPS, but that doesn't mean that the other pilots and I are very comfortable doing it. It's also what the passengers think. They know nothing about ETOPS and the statistics. They see two engines and they are put off. You ask most people in Asia about aircraft that Boeing make and apart from the 747 they don't know anything. Even our CEO doesn't like the idea of twins across the Pacific, so we won't be doing it. If we did, I think 99.9% of our staff would be very shocked!
 
CX747
Topic Author
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:39 am

I would like to correct my 80' plug and restate that it is 80". My apologies.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Rai
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:43 am

If CX decides to purchase this plane, where would they fly it to?
 
JAL
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:05 pm

When can the first order for the new 747 variant be expected?
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
N79969
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Wed Nov 20, 2002 12:26 am

Thanks Cx_Flyboy. It seems that culture is a big reason for Cathay's policy on ETOPS. That is interesting.


 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1825
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RE: Cathay Pacific Looking Into 747-400QLR

Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:04 am

What Cx_flyboy has pointed out is a very common trend among Asian airlines. I would say Japan Airlines and All Nippon Airways used to be even more conservative than Cathay.

Twins across the Northern Pacific are becoming a lot more common. We have US carriers like UA, CO, and AA using twins across the Pacific. Among Asian carriers, we have KE, OZ, CZ, and SQ. Even the ultra-conservative JL and NH are doing it. VN and BR will soon join the club. Can CX hold out forever? Will the market pressure be enough to change their conservative view? Who knows?