LJ
Topic Author
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KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:28 pm

After the LOI it was already almost certain that KLM would order the A330. This morning KLM confirmed ordering 8 A330. Delivery will start in April 2005 due to the fact KLM hasn't decided yet on which engine to take.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:35 pm

Very good news, they will look nice in the KLM scheme.
 
Guest

RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:05 pm

According to the press release, it is 6 firm orders, not 8.

Also, KLM has taken an option on another 18 A330 aircraft.

Question: just two months ago, KLM placed an order with Boeing for the B777. What differences are there between the A330 and the B777? Why would KLM want to fly both aircraft?
 
Skystar
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:06 pm

Why do CX, MH and AF do that too?
 
keesje
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:07 pm

retouched Picture from Brazilian jetside.com



KLM 747-400, 777-200ER, A330-200

Great mix I think.

All able to fly most long haul destinations with substantial cargo from AMS.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Thu Nov 14, 2002 9:08 pm

DutchDeltaDude,

Then reasons KLM ordered the A330-200 are quite simple: for many of their routes, mostly the ones on which the 767 is used today, the 777 would be too large and heavy, it would be overkill. The A330-200 is considerably smaller, but still has sufficient range and, above all, enough cargo capacity (the lack of cargo capacity appears to be the main reason KLM wants to get rid of its 767s). So the A330 was obviously the best choice for this segment.
 
keesje
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:49 pm

Scorpio correct, I heard 767 replaced A310 because of lack of range (atlantic)
I gues now A330 replaces 767 because of better range & cargo.
#seats 747/772/332 : 400/320/250 good build up IMO ...
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Udo
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:54 am

Difference between A330-200 and B777-200: about 60 (SIXTY) seats. A332 competes with B767 only, not the B777. I hope anybody will realize that one day...


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
9v-svc
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:46 am

This is great news .


 Smile
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
larspl
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:52 am

i also heard the following rumour: they only ordered these a330 so boeing will drop the prices on the 777's. eventually the a330 would be leased out to others.

L
facebook.com/ddaclassicairlines
 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:02 am

Larspl,

That has to be the funniest rumor I've heard in quite a while! That would be the first time I've heard of an airline ordering planes with the intention of NOT keeping them...
 
N79969
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:17 am

Scorpio,

I don't know if that rumor is true. But Singapore Airlines does that routinely. They purchased a lot of 777s for SALE and not for their own direct use.
 
LJ
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:33 am

i also heard the following rumour: they only ordered these a330 so boeing will drop the prices on the 777's. eventually the a330 would be leased out to others.

Absultely not true as they first ordered the B777 (firm order in May 2002) and then the A330 (only just today). However you won't see them on the Boeing site as they're part of an order placed by ILFC, the leasing company which will lease the B777 to KLM.

N79969, KLM doesn't have any leasing firm there's no gain for KLM to follow such a strategy.

the lack of cargo capacity appears to be the main reason KLM wants to get rid of its 767s

Or better, KLM wants to get rid of the LD2 containers which aren't compatible with the LD3 conatiners which fit in all the other wide bodies (Yes I know that LD3 fits into a B767, but only at a loss)
 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:39 am

N79969,

The comparison to SIA makes little sense, as SIA has a leasing arm, SALE, so it's only normal for them to order planes for that leasing arm. SIA also makes it very clear, when ordering planes, that they will go to SALE. KLM does NOT have a leasing arm, and has clearly announced its intention to operate the A330.
 
N79969
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:48 am

Right, that's why I wrote SALE. Singarpore Aircraft Leasing...

I doubt the rumor myself; I think KLM will fly their own 332s. But KLM could lease aircraft out without a leasing arm.
 
Rai
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:51 am

So, I take it these machines will fly to destinations like YVR, ATL and the ME?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:55 am

My bet is on the PW engines for KLM's A330-200's, looks like PW engines in the KLM A330 picture above.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
N79969
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:00 am

I think there is no way that PW will get this deal. They were the first company eliminated in the 777 engine competition. KLM is diehard GE.
 
Scorpio
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:03 am

Arsenal,

The picture you see is in no way official, it's from a site which specialises in making fake pictures of planes. I would be highly surprised if KLM chose PW engines for the A330, considering that ALL their other widebodies have GE CF6 engines, and they've already selected GE for the 777s as well.
 
LJ
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:05 am

All the A330 will be leased A330's and KLM doesn't lease out its "own" aircraft (tecnically KLM doesn't own any aircraft as they're all leased from various leasing companies) to other airlines anymore.

The A330 will be going to the Middle East (except AMM, BEY and DAM) Western Africa and will porbably end up on AMS-LHR for test flights (as usual)

BTW first KLM B777 expected late next year
 
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PW100
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:18 am

Keesje,

Indeed quite ironic.
KLM ordered the A310 way back in the eighties, mainly for their cargo capacity. They replaced the A310 by the 767 because the 767 had much better range. Then they found out that the 767 cargo capacity was quite disappointing. And now they are replacing the 767 by the A330 because the 767 doesn't have the cargo capacity!

The 777/330 combination is getting quite popular these days!

Mr. Ford once sold his T-Ford like this: "You can have it in any colour as long as it's black!"
KLM purchasing department: "Mr Noël Forgeard, please feel free to deliver the goods equipped with any kind of engine, as long as it has GE all over it...".

PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
jrebel
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:23 am

It would appear that the 744ERFs and 777s will be delivered with a new livery, according to a post on AirlineCrew.net.

johan
 
raggi
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:28 am

kl has talked about nw ordering the 330 as well, and that it would open up new perspectives in the alliance in terms of maintenance and operation.. so maybe pratt can land this...
but my bet is the 72K CF6-80E1 for kl`s new birds


raggi
Stick & Rudder
 
LJ
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 4:29 am

KLM ordered the A310 way back in the eighties, mainly for their cargo capacity.

PW100, KLM ordered the A310 because of the LD3 container and moreover because the B767-300ER wasn't on the market (or to be delivered soon don't know exactly which one). Should the B767-300ER be on the market and/or be deleiverable soon, they wouldn't have ordered the A310 (only available medium range airliner suitable for the European and Western African flights).

BTW too bad for P&W that the deal between United Technologies and KLM never materialised (then the chances of P&W getting the engine order would be greater).
 
gerardo
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:22 am

Little correction, LJ:

the KLM B777 order is splitted. 4 B772 are ordered directly at Boeing and listed there, the rest will be delivered via ILFC, as you pointed out.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:28 am

Hey Keesje,

Haven´t you seen the KLM 777 at jetsite?

Here it goes.. together with the 340  Smile





Best regards and thanks for sharing our photos with the A.net folks,

Renato Salzinger
aviation photographer
jetsite assistant editor
"ad astra per aspera"
 
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coronado
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:38 am

What are the legalities of NWA and KLM intermixing their A330 fleets shifting who is operating them on a seasonal basis?

It is clearly a North Atlantic craft and this is where NWA and KLM have their most developed relationship? On the other hand during winter it would be a good aircraft for NWA to run to Hawaii or MX vacation spots.

There always has been talk that the next step of Wings would be to start spec'ing aircraft jointly?
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
N79969
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:42 am

Mixing and matching aircraft would be a real pain in the ass and probably cost prohibitive. US carriers must list their entire fleet on the operating specifications. They cannot operate, maintain, or repair an aircraft that is not on their op specs.

Plus for part of the year, the record keeping would have to meet FAA standards and the rest of the time it would be JAA. They are simiilar but all the registration and regulatory issues would make this sort of difficult.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:23 am

What engines has NW ordered on their A330's? KLM's decision might be swayed by NW's engine selection.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
9v-svc
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:02 am

NW ordered PW-powered engines . But somehow I think they will stick to GE engines since the rest of the fleet is powered by GE .
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
lubcha132
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:12 am

I dunno, i think the A310 situation is going to happen again.
 
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coronado
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:24 am

Are they looking forward to change in laws such as EEC striking down European bilaterals and trading that for an opening of US rules, with the effect of allowing some sort of disguised ACMI arrangement? Under true open skies could'nt KLM operated 330 craft operate on behalf of NWA on winter flights to Acapulco; Mazatlan; even a domestic destination such as Hawaii? and have NWA maintain them if power plants are similar. This is the future, but obviously it is hard to predict how soon this future will arrive! Similarly during festivals etc, NWA can lend its 330's to KLM to beef up flights from AMS to points inIndia and Pakistan?
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
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RayChuang
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:01 pm

I think besides the fact the A330-200 can carry LD3 containers, the A332 has a maximum range of 6,600 nautical miles. That's more than enough to fly KLM's routes to Africa and much of Asia.

The 777-200ER's KLM will fly will be used on routes to the USA and also more busy Asian routes.
 
jrebel
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RE: KLM Place Firm A330 Order

Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:42 am

According to an article in a newsletter for KLM Flying Dutchman members in South Africa, the airline is investigating whether there is a business case for direct daily flights between Amsterdam and Cape Town, using the new 777s.

An article in the Flying Dutchman magazine for members in the Netherlands mentions Cape Town and Jakarta as future 777 destinations, and Los Angeles for the A330.

It is also mentioned that the new aircraft will be delivered with standards interiors, not the customized interiors KLM has hitherto specified for new aircraft.

johan

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