slawko
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Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:07 am

As part of the Start Alliance bail out plan Air Canada is rumoured to be taking on 5 United Airlines 747-400's. I dont have any confirmed details, but it seems that there are currently two options 1)Air Canada will return 5 of their own 744's to the lessor, and lease 5 of UAL's 744's from United. Option 2) would see AC take on 5 additional 744's increasing their 744 fleet to 12 Aircraft. This option would obviously cost a lot of money, and would probably not be justified unless some 340's were parked/returned to lessor.

All info is from a source(s) at Air Canada....
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
AirCanadaMan
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:30 am

Isn't C-FBCA already parked in the desert?, which is owned, not leased.

If that is the case, than option 2 seems much less likely. And with a whole bunch of Asian downgrades to 763's, do they need 12 744's in total?

In option 1, returning them to the lessors, thats fine and dandy, but only 3 are leased, 2 combis from GECAS and a regular 744 from GECAS.

So, if the two combis were to be returned to GECAS, and replaced with regular 744's, would that not leave a hole in AC's European cargo market?


It all seems a little fishy.
 
BOEING747-700
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:30 am

What ones would they get rid of, I hope not my fav one, the Team Canada 747-4F6
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:31 am

That's all AC needs - a bunch of MORE non-standard large widebodies.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:59 am

Im pretty sure all the 744's are currently in service, one or two were parked for a while, but no all are online, and Im pretty sure that all of them are leased. Dont know which would be returned.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 8:13 am

Just did some checking and ACman you are right, BCA was returned to lessor in october...and only 3 are leased...could they just be parking 5 aircraft then, sending them to sit with their -200 sister's in mojave?
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
godbless
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 8:25 am

Couldn't these extra 747's help AC solve the Canada-Germany problems between YUL and YYZ?
With extra planes at hand it would be possible to satisfy the demand which, according to various "YUL vs. YYZ" threads, seems to be very high.
And until LH get their act together AC could serve YUL-MUC. And if the demand is really that high then why not serve it with the 747?

Max
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:11 pm

If it's true, then I'm glad to see them going to a good home...one who will know how to take care of them.
 
FutureFO
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:20 pm

It would be nice to see the oddball routes taken on by these extra 744's. YWG-HKG//YWG-NRT//YEG-TPE
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:20 pm

Done forget YUL-YEG right Mark??
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
a380
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:10 pm

If those 744's are additions, how about possible routes like YYZ-PEK, YYZ-PVG, bigger equipment on YVR-PVG, YVR-PEK etc.
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:57 pm

AC will have these B747-400 shuttling YUL-YYZ on the half hours  Big thumbs up

AC with B744's..... where will they put them?

Mark
 
gmonney
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Mon Nov 25, 2002 10:42 pm

AC with B744's.... where will they put them?

Mark, I hope they put them into the sky....??

I know here at YYZ there is lots of room at the infieild terminal, as well the new Internation pier will be open for T3 soon, hopefully AC will get more room there untill T-new is opened fully!!

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
lymanm
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:33 am

I'm sure AC will do what they can to help UAL, but Option #2 is a rather sloppy and irresponsible idea. AC, for the past decade, has been very conservative with their fleet planning, and overall growth. This is simply too big a capacity increase to sustain in current conditions. Even in good conditions, with all the A330s and loooong A340s buzzing around the world, where do you realistically put them? Additionally, this would add a 3rd type of 744 to the fleet: the federally mandated over-bulky combis -433s and the former CP -475s. I'm not in the know enough to comment on how compatible the UAL models are...anyone?

BUT option #1 does sound more realistic. It streamlines the 747 fleet, and if the lease terms are more favourable, then AC will be all over that particular aspect. Mind you, the combis, although range-limited, can still earn their keep and I'm sure AC would miss them.

In any event, this rumour sounds too good to be true.
buhh bye
 
AC183
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Tue Nov 26, 2002 1:37 am

They could keep the combis and park/sell/return the ex-CP -400's (weren't they all leased???). That would standardize the fleet to all-PW powerplants, as the ex-CP aircraft use GE power and the -433M's use Pratt... although that doesn't help much with standardizing given the PW/GE split in the 767 fleet.
 
flyyul
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:32 am

Given Canada's market of 32 million people, and trying to catch some of the US connection traffic, where can they feasibility implement a full pax version of the Boeing 747-475 (orwhatever the UAL version may be)... Unless they plan on reducing frequencies on pontential YUL-CDG, YVR-LHR, YYZ-FRA, YYZ-LHR, then perhaps they have a fit..... I would argue that Air Canada's needs pertain more to the boeing 767-300 and A321 rather than the Boeing 747-400..

Mark
 
B-HOP
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:04 am

Well said AC183!! That is what i think too, it would be more efficent to have 1 engine type for an aircraft type.
Live life to max!!!
 
gmonney
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:41 am

For sure guys, one engine type would be a good option, in this instance that they can get the aircraft and a Alliance Partner, being United as the old owner it add peice of mind. The aircraft will be in good working order, clean, and reliable. Its a whole lot better than getting them from like PIA or some other company!!

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
747-451
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:21 am

It would be "moronic" for Air Canada to lease/purchase/barter what ever United 747's from their unwashed enemy to the south...  Yeah sure I'd rather scrap them...
 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:47 am

Easy there 747-451, we dont all think he is a Moron. Its actually too bad that WE have a Moron running our government, he should have sacked that idiot right away and appologized at the Nato Summit. For that matter he shouldn't have come out of retirement in the 90's... But on the same note, we are not always going to agree on everything, we are an independant country too...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
bigmo747
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:48 am

" Its a whole lot better than getting them from like PIA or some other company!! "

can u please explain what u mean by that statement?

thank u
 
747-451
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 8:21 am

"But on the same note, we are not always going to agree on everything, we are an independant country too..."

We don't expect you to, and we realize Canada is an independent country. What we do ask is that your administration you treat our administration with the dignity and respect we treat yours.

Now to apply the blow torches and wrecking balls on those 747-422's.
 
AC183
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:10 am

"the dignity and respect we treat yours."

...and that could be the beginning of an entirely different mess... but lets not go there.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:22 am

Blow torch several hundred million dollars worth of relatively young, premium air transports? All because the economy sucks right now?

Nay, nay dear sir, expandeth thy vision... Wink/being sarcastic

When backs are against the firing squad wall, either you die...or you invent a way out. And if you're really good, you do it in a way that leaves you on the firing squad's Christmas card list.

This sounds like a plan.....and perhaps...a shape of things to come in airline collaboration.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:17 pm

747-451, interesting way of thinking you have there. Interesting how UA is in financial trouble, on the verge of bankruptcy, and Air Canada might be in there with a helpful plan to purchase some of their excess aircraft, and thus injecting some much needed cash, and you bring up something that one person in the Canadian government said as a means to argue that these airplanes should be torched??? Dude, you're cracked if that's the way you think. We don't see the U.S. as an enemy. And I don't think most Americans see Canada as an enemy. Just as I don't think Americans should take what this one person said too seriously, especially because it wasn't an official statement or even on a microphone or anything, I'm not going to judge all Americans based on your crooked opinions.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:22 pm

just remember that when ErrorCanada was on its brink of failure, that UAL Corporation came in and purchased 3 A340s from AC in CASH and leased them back...............
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:28 pm

SegmentKing, that's all very good! Both companies work very closely together, and they both benefit from that. Now, I can understand that Americans might be sensitive to the fact that this lady called Bush a moron, however, she didn't say it publicly, it was in fact overheard. She in her private life is entitled to think Bush is a moron. If this were a public announcement, that would be a different story. It was not in any way a statement representing the feelings of the Canadian public or the Canadian government. There's a difference. I find it much more offensive when Air Canada, when doing something that will benefit it's American partner, an American comes out and says "torch those airplanes" only because it's a Canadian airline making the purchase.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
747-451
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:04 am

1) my statement about "blow torches and wrecking balls" was "sarcastic" since that Air Canada is "such" a dedicated Airbus operator why would they take in the 747's (the 747's they do have are used specifically for a few specific long range routes and Airbuses are used for a majority of their long distance work). Also of note I doubt AC would do a transfer, since their 747's are "leased" and that would be an issue to break those leases.

2) I do believe that Air Canada will assist United in some way or form, probably some form of finanacial agreement or instrument. It is doubtful that AC would "buy" or lease anything from United since 1) as previously stated, AC is a dedicated Airbus operator 2) the only commonality is 767's aside from the 747-400's. (United has ditched all it's 737-200's). A probable lease back like the A340 deal United had with AC is also a probablity, but it would take a leaseback of a huge number of planes to bail out United's mess!

3) as far as the 747-400 being a "premium aircraft", that it is but it is also more of a botiques product where it's appeal has more or less been eclipsed by the 777 technology/range wise and the up and coming A380 beats it capacity wise and there are other alternatives such as the A340.

4) As far as Canada and the US; Chretien's arrogance has soured a good number of Americans perception of Canada. Unfortunately, the majority of Canada who does see the US as "benign" will be stomped out by the boorish, stiffling "Quebecois" who seem to dominate the entire culture and are very much like the French, who are staunchly anti-American. We are not asking Canada to

If you need proof of this, you should have watched CNN's "Crossfire" the other night. The commentary from the usual cast of idiot commentators was the typical blather. However, some "average" Canadain members of the audience were given the chance to speak and had suprisingly negative commantary about the US, our people and our attitudes. I know that CNN is hardly an example of the paraamount of journalsim, however, average citizens are given a chance to speak.
 
747-451
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Thu Nov 28, 2002 7:32 am

(sorry for the cut off in my last post....)

.....are not asking Canada to compromise in any way, just to see our point of view, respect it and agree or disagree without this sort of behaviour. (and I think security issues and safe borders have nothing to do with politics, it has to do with common sense in regards to the defense spending issues.)


 
slawko
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RE: Air Canada To Take On 5 UAL 744's!

Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:07 am

Actually Segmentking that was just a proposal, and it was for A330's...it never actually happened
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada