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yyz717
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Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:26 pm

Toronto City council voted tonight 29-11 in favour of a fixed link to the Island Airport.

Despite lobbying from the idle wealthy, the tree huggers & other gliterati, TO council voted in favour of the economic gains that would come from an expanded Island Airport, including downtown jobs & more Dash 8 production in Toronto.

Yahoo!
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
H. Simpson
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:59 pm

Expand!?

I thought the Island(isn't it City?) Airport was almost close down because of lack of activity!?

anyway, nice to hear the Dash-8s being produced in downtown...:D
 
lymanm
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Fri Nov 29, 2002 3:28 pm

Hopefully that planned Q400 operator will resume their startup plans. They could seriously take business away from AC et al. Even VIA Rail could suffer!
buhh bye
 
captaingomes
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Fri Nov 29, 2002 3:47 pm

What's the record of past attempts in this market? I.E. City Express? And why are they no longer around? Does REGCO really stand a chance with this, or will everybody lose with an expanded island airport with similarly low levels of traffic in the future?
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
voodoo
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:59 pm

The key words are `fixed link'. No more time-delaying ferry ride.
I would think all systems go for REGCO and the Q400.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
dripstick
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:23 pm

Neil, I hear WestJet is coming in. They will be only using their oldest B732s and appyling full reverse thrust upon touchdown.

I believe they're calling it "Condo-Rocker" service. Yee Haw!!!

 Big thumbs up

Dripstick

What's another word for thesaurus?
 
a380
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:26 pm

I am for the expansion of YTZ because it's important to attract business into downtown Toronto. I always think it's better for a person to go to downtown Toronto to land at YTZ rather than YYZ (then fighting the traffic on 427 and QEW). Also YTZ is very useful for medavac flights as well. (remember the cluster of downtown hospitals)
 
gmonney
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:03 am

Hey Vincent, I think in the future the GTAA will cover you problem with fighting traffic, they are going to be putting a rail link from YYZ - Union station, the way i look at it, thats convienent!!

I will try and find the link from the GTAA website

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
a380
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:10 am

But people still have not had a consensus on the feasibility of a YYZ-Union rail link, and AFAIK no one had expressed interest on building and running it.
At least we already have the basic infrastructure in place at YTZ.
 
lymanm
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:13 am

What's the record of past attempts in this market? I.E. City Express?

If I'm not mistaken, City Express had actual mob ties. I would trust the mob for many things (such as off-ing annoying a.net memebers!!!....hehehe, joke joke) but not to run an airline. Additionally, comparing the airline industry from 1988 to now is completely ridiculous. Another matter is the fact that the Q400 is much different than the early models of Dash-8s and slow, fuel hungry Dash-7s that City Express was using...Qs can fly farther, faster and more efficiently. To top it off, it's Toronto built! Even the idiot mayor will like this deal.
buhh bye
 
captaingomes
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 5:32 am

Lymanm you make good points. I just hope they are not too optimistic with their projections and end up bankrupt as is the case with 99% of all Canadian startup airlines.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
cch362
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 6:33 am

The fixed link to Island Airport had been planned for about 70 years. Work actually started on a tunnel in 1935 and was terminated after two weeks due to politics.

It's ironic that the City Council needs another approval now, after having originally approved building a bridge across this 500-foot "gap" back in 1983. Maybe this one will finally end the debate over the fate of the airport once and for all. I certainly hope so.

Based on its history though, I just won't hold my breath for any significant changes at Island Airport. But in an idealistic scenario, I would love to see Q400s and BAe146/ARJs taking off against the backdrop of the Toronto skyline!
 
slawko
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 6:49 am

Nuno you are going to make me hurt you...you know full well the track record of Mr. Deluce, and the potential of the TCCA. City Express was trying to operate in competition with a full blown Air Ontario operation during poor economic times....Jazz is not less then half of the operation it once was at the TCCA, and I'm sure that Mr. Deluce has spent a long time researching the project, you don't get $550 Million from private investors just because you ask nicely....

I also wanted to clarify, this isn't really an expansion, they are improving the existing facility and replacing old, and out dated facilities with new ones, they are not expanding runways, or adding terminals, rather they are removing old buildings and putting one new one in. The word Expand was used by Community Air and other such nonsensical groups to try and defeat the airport, we as the aviation community should not be so "liberal" with our words...I cant wait to see the fixed link, this is a project that is 50+ years in the making, and I think it will be the first step in using the facility to its full potential, without going beyond the restrictions set out by the city. The fact that locals are so stupid that they thing flying a CRJ into the TCCA is going to make more noise then a turboprop just goes to show how much research the put into their argument against the airport.


I'm done ranting for now  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Skywatcher
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:31 am

I quess the real estate developers lost this round but I doubt they'll give up.

IMHO,that beautiful, retro airport is interfereing with their plans.

I don't think they really mind the fixed link so much (it'll eventually be needed no matter what happens to the island) but any growth of the airport is contrary to their interests.

I once saw a list of the 100 wealthiest people in Canada and Toronto real estate developers were very, very well represented on it. Their plans count big time at city hall.

Maybe if the Downsview airport is freed up for development (like Cartierville airport in Montreal was) they'll back off from the island airport.

 
pilottim747
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:24 am

Here's a link to the story in The Toronto Star on 11/29/02: Bridge to island okayed

Dripstick, are you serious about Westjet? I think that'd be a sight to see a B732 land at Toronto City. Longest runway is 4,000 ft., right?

pilottim747
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
slawko
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:33 am

Hmm wonder how much service this airport will take away from YUL  Smile  Smile  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
dbailey62
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:37 am

It seems that the downtowners don't realize, or won't accept the premise, that a Q400 is a lot less annoying than many of those single engine buzz saws that generally use the airport.

Also it's ironic that all these condo types at Harbourfront who are so worried about additional pollution seem to live so happily right next to the Gardiner Expressway and Lakeshore Blvd.

db
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:01 am

It seems that the downtowners don't realize, or won't accept the premise, that a Q400 is a lot less annoying than many of those single engine buzz saws that generally use the airport.

Also it's ironic that all these condo types at Harbourfront who are so worried about additional pollution seem to live so happily right next to the Gardiner Expressway and Lakeshore Blvd.


Exactly! I'm one of those rare Harbourfront condo types who's in favour of UNBRIDLED Island airport expansion! A noise study was done a few years ago that showed that the Island Airport only contributed 3% of the ambient noise at Harbourfront.

City Express was trying to operate in competition with a full blown Air Ontario operation during poor economic times

Not quite. City Express was in financial trouble before AO started flying to YTZ. When AO started, CE was down to just the 3 Dash 7's (the 4 Dash 8's had been removed).

this isn't really an expansion, they are improving the existing facility and replacing old

Correct. In City Express' best year, they handled about 600K pax at YTZ (I think it was 87 or 88). Now AO only handles about 120K/year. The REGCO proposal will only bring traffic back to earlier levels.

Dripstick was just joking about the 732 at YTZ! BUT I WOULD LOVE THAT!






I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gmonney
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:08 am

Hey Neil, Slawko was thinking about spotting down at the lake front one day? A little change....we just have to get a sked i guess.....and go from there....might be fun!!!!

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
dripstick
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:15 am

Hey Neil, Slawko was thinking about spotting down at the lake front one day...

Definitely a good idea, but can we wait about 6 or 7 months? Then we can all spot from Neil's penthouse and get a good view of the entire airfield and adjoining nudist beach.

Dripstick
What's another word for thesaurus?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:26 am

Hey Neil, Slawko was thinking about spotting down at the lake front one day...

Sure, but there's not a hell of a lot happening. Just Jazz Dash-8's. Only -100's, not even -300's. But soon........the Q400!

Definitely a good idea, but can we wait about 6 or 7 months? Then we can all spot from Neil's penthouse and get a good view of the entire airfield and adjoining nudist beach.

Sure! Summer's best. I look west over the Inner Harbour. You can see everything coming & going from YTZ (once again, it's not much). If the wind's up, I could take you sailing.






I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
a380
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:47 pm

I am for the expansion because it should be good for Toronto's economy and not for our spotting fun. However Dash8 Q400 is just good for YTZ; CRJ is too noisy in my opinion, based on my experience at Boeing lot.
 
lymanm
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:58 pm

The runways range from 2700 ft to 4000 ft. I don't think you'll see RJs there because 4000ft is very tight for an RJ. I know ASA operates ATL to EYW with the CRJ-700, but the 700s have leading edge slats, which help the short field performance. Neither the 100s or 200s (of AC and AC Jazz) have them. However, Jazz's 146s could fit there quite nicely. I recall Air Atlantic did some tests there in the late 1980s (and my childhood memory recalls a picture of a 146 at YTZ on the cover of some Canadian aviation rag); the 146 is ideal for airports like City Centre.
buhh bye
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sat Nov 30, 2002 10:41 pm

Yeah, an Air Atlantic 142 (in CP colours) made a much publicized visit to YTZ in 1990. For years after, BAe had billboards all over downtown about the 146.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
donder10
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:57 am

What routes will YTZ have?All I know is that Ottawa is served from there currently(YUL too?)
 
slawko
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:08 am

REGCO is plainning YUL, YOW, as well as NYC, ORD, and other points withing I think 500NM of Toronto, mostly major business cities.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
dripstick
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:10 am

Ya know if the runway was just a wee bit longer, I bet WestJet would serve YTZ before YUL.  Big thumbs up

After all, YUL is overserved.

Dripstick



What's another word for thesaurus?
 
slawko
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:28 am

Lets just say I would be that WJ would take their chances into 4000FT at YTZ before they even think about going into YUL's 11000FT  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 7:03 am

After all, YUL is an over-served market (as small as it is).

"YU'L have to wait a long time for a flight out of YUL".

...as the saying goes.....
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:14 am

Hey Neil expert in economics, glad to know that you chickened out...

 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:23 am

I keep hearing how hyper you were Mark at YYZ.

....must have been all the aircraft movements....you're not used to such a big airport.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Noise
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 9:30 am

God you Torontonians are pathetic! I mean you guys are really, really sad. If I did know any better, I'd think you guys are 2nd graders. Can't you guys to anything besides poke fun at YUL? How childish!
 
slawko
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:04 am

Oh please, its all in good fun...Noise if I didnt know any better I would think you are from Toronto, talking like you have a pickle up your ass...we are just having some fun!!
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
captaingomes
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:45 am

Oh c'mon noise, it's all in good fun. Ask Mark, he met us all (except for Neil) and I think he got a good impression of us here. We were definitely very nice to him. Besides, Neil couldn't make it, but I'm sure he'll be around the next time! Why don't you jump on an apperatus MD-83 and come to YYZ spotting too? Both you and Mark can do the 2 for 1 deal if they bring it out again!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Noise
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:53 am

Alright, that's cool I guess. Didn't really know. Nice to see you guys finally met Mark, maybe one day you guys can come here to YUL. Oh but wait I forgot, YUL is too boring for ya! Big grin
 
slawko
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:56 am

No there just aren't enough flights between YYZ and YUL we could get all 8 or 9 of us out there on the same day  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Noise
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 11:09 am

 Laugh out loud Yeah I guess so.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:34 pm

Why don't you jump on an apperatus MD-83

LOL Nuno!

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
yow
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:07 pm

Kudos to TO city council to finallllllllllllllly expand YTZ. Actually Neil, the last time my dad flew into YTZ about 2 months ago (he loves the convenience when headed downtown), one of the workers there told him traffice has fallen to a mere 80K. This is reflected in the ever dwindling Jazz service. There is now absolutely no scheduled flights on weekends, YXU is down to a single flight and AC is suspending outright flights over the Christmas holidays to YTZ from I think Dec 23-Jan 2???

YTZ given the proper infrastructure could easily get back to its 450K pax levels of the mid 80s.
 
flyyul
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:58 pm

Actually Neil,

With all due respect, I was impressed with Toronto.. but its nothing special, its no JFK, no MIA..

The truth remains that you chickened out, this was your oppurtunity to "kick the sh&t out of me" as you so kindly described on Nuno's voice mail....

Whatever it is, even if you HATE YUL so much, there is still some good spotting for ya next summer.

Mark
 
lymanm
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:19 am

An article in the Globe said that this was one of many votes FOR the bridge in the past 10 years, yet none of them resulted in the bridge *actually* being built. For all you Torontonians in the know, what gives? Is this vote going to be different? Or will Collenette in his revolting ignorance and train fetish (it's true - he LOVES trains) strike YTZ improvement down?
buhh bye
 
Noise
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:26 am

Speaking of trains, the use of trains in Canada has soared at an unbelievable rate. Perhpas trains are taking over on the Quebec-Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto corridor? Maybe they'll make YTZ one big train station!
 
Teej13
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:42 am

You know, on the one hand, I like the idea of the fixed link to YTZ. Here's why:

1) The economic potential of a quick hop over to NYC on a Dash-8, completely avoiding Pearson, is big. Same goes for ORD, BOS, YOW, YUL, and others.

2) This could in effect save taxpayers money. If business expands, then prices will go down. Because the only people who fly YOW-YTZ are politicians, we, the taxpayer, will save money from fewer "travel costs".  Smile

3) If, as somebody pointed out, the airport accounts for 3% of the noise around there, what's a few more Dash-8s? I'd bet that the real noise makers are some of the private airplanes anyways...

4) It'll be nice to see SOME development down in that area beyond condos. The lack of other development will eventually hurt the condo market down there, and this'll get things to pick up.


Now here are my concerns:

1) What about that rail link from Union to Pearson? Regardless of YTZ's expansion, I'm still going to want a better way to get out there when I fly somewhere further than Ottawa or New York. I'd hate to see this plan go by the wayside in favour of the Island airport - in truth, I think it's more important.

2) Although I do like the idea of economic development in the area, I am scared that it'll be the wrong kind of development. I know Robert Fung's waterfront development plan is a tad unrealistic, I still want that area to be aesthetically pleasing - as a Torontonian, not a hippie. I'm less concerned with the Island itself than the state of the waterfront. That area at eh foot of the DVP is gross, and while any improvement is nice, I'd prefer a park, or some other kind of use, instead of MORE condos. (As an aside, did you know that Toronto is the condo capital of the world? We build more condos than any other city - 14,000 in 2001, twice as many as Chicago..)

3) As much as people joke about 732s @ YTZ, I'd hate to see it happen. Ever wandered around downtown Boston, and heard the jets roaring by? As an airliner fan, I love the novelty, but I'd hate to have to live through it...

Just my two cents...


T.J.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:44 am

I'm not surprized that YTZ traffic has fallen to 80K.

Jazz rarely offers seat sales from YTZ. Everyone I know who flies from YTZ says that the flights are invariably empty.

The truth remains that you chickened out

Errr...no. Not everything I do revolves around you Mark. Although, I keep hearing that you were extremely hyper in YYZ.......

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:53 am

Good points Teej13.

Both City Express & Air Ontario flew YTZ-EWR and then dropped the route. Not sure why. US Airways Express flew ROC-YTZ for 18 mos recently and then pulled out. I think a transborder service to a hub airport would work, such as NW Link Saab 340 to DTW, CO Express to CLE or EWR, or US Express to PIT or PHL. A few more Dash 8's will obviously not add noise to YTZ.

The rail link to YYZ is stalled. It's arguably a non-starter. There are airport buses that are quicker than any train would be anyway, even in rush hour.

Neil.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gmonney
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:28 pm

Good news everyone, looks like CO Express has tested the airport and will start service this spring. Look out YUL, soon this island will be bigger and better served!!!


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Lee Archer



Don't worry i am going to submit the correction guys....a little humour for you....

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
flyyul
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 4:49 pm

Hyper? So Neil, you would know because you were there right? Or maybe your trying to prove a point?

You didnt chicken out? How do I take your "I dont feel like it".. looks like everybody made it out but you.

Mark

 
Mark_D.
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:52 pm

Well let's see what happens now. I'll believe it when the cranes and cement mixers are out there, maybe by April or so when the snow's melted. And of course any remaining formidable political opposition, along with it.

I've read a bunch of 'letters to the editor' to the Toronto Star and Globe and Mail over the past months saying how an YTZ is a jewel in Toronto's crown and how it should definitely be expanded. I definitely agree, it'd be awesome having such, well almost walking-distance access to downtown, from there.

Not to mention a much-needed shot in the arm for the Q400 production line guys and the Q400 itself, with REGCO orders. So fingers crossed, for all of this.

Also seems to me YUL traffic would go up rather than down, with a ~1million passenger/yr. operation at YTZ. Would put a dent in the now-very-popular-and-getting-even-more-so VIA rail service, Montréal-Toronto. (they did a story on this a few weeks ago on CanadaNow from Montreal, a number of happy customers --business and leisure-- talking about the way-better food service and fewer hassles and time savings compared to flying, and so on.

Oh and speakin' about TV, Télé-Métropole had a mighty rad special on last night: Les Dangereux, "the Making of" . Bet'chou would've enjoyed it, Neily  Smile
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:03 am

I'm very happy about this.

REGCO i have a funny feeling is gonna realise the Q400 is too big pretty quick and switch most of its order to Q200s, thats if it gets off the ground at all.

I'm also half expecting to see AirAlliance Beechs at YTZ, the 1900 could open up more markets, maybe CLE, YSB, YAM, YQG (or DTW). Especially if REGCO starts services to any hehe...

And maybe Continental CONNECTION (not Express) aka Commutair, will start service as well... or is that restart, didnt they try YTZ once in the mid 90s? As USEx??? or was that Hamilton? or am i really confused?

Hey who knows.... Bearskin YTS-YYB-YTZ with PC-12s hehe  Smile and ya know, if they extended the runway 1000' (come on, filling in Lake Ontario isnt THAT hard hehe) they could fly 73Gs to YYC j/k
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Toronto Island Airport To Expand.

Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:09 am

4000 ft. for a 732 is entirely possible, Alaska Airlines serves an island in the Aleutians with a 732 that has a 4000 ft. runway...

YES I KNOW IT WAS A JOKE TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru