JayDavis
Topic Author
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:43 pm

I hope that the people who voted "No" to the latest contract proposal enjoy living on food stamps and welfare for the next few years!

I cannot understand how some idiot union member would choose not to allow their employer to lower their wages while they could continue to have a job. What other choice do they have? Look what happened at Eastern if you need some evidence of how idiotic union leaders can bring down a carrier.

I'm sorry, I have no sympathy for any of the mechanics who will no longer have a job if UA is forced into bankruptcy! Each one of your fellow employees have given and given, yet you selfish bastards continue to make it difficult for UA to stay in the air!

I hope all of you union mechanics that work for UA starve to death who voted "No" to the latest rounds of concessions and I don't even work for UA !! Your membership is a bunch of Morons in my opinion!!

Merry Christmas you idiots!!

 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:46 pm

Hey tough guy what about UA's greedy SOB pilots HUH????? I guess they are forgiven already..... Yeah sure
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:48 pm

Spot on, but I think your post will be gone soon  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
JayDavis
Topic Author
Posts: 1870
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:49 pm

From what I've read, every group, including the pilots have given in to wage concessions. Am I wrong? If so, I'll eat some crow, but from what all I've read and heard, EVERY group at UA including pilots have taken wage concessions, except the mechanics.........

 
JayDavis
Topic Author
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Why Will My Post Be Gone HKGSpotter1?

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:51 pm

Are you judge and jury?

 
MD88Captain
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:57 pm

Jay I do agree that it makes no sense to turn down a 7% paycut in order to get a 25-45% pay/benefits cut through the bankruptcy court. I think my Dad would call that cutting off your nose to spite your face. My old Marine Gunny would call it stepping on your dick.

I can only assume that the stress of the past years and bad advice has got many of this mechanics not thinking objectively. We have the luxury of looking from a distance, while these mechanics are surrounded by conflict. They 'screwed the pooch' (my dog walker's term/I worry about him) but some may not realize it until the pink slip arrives.
 
United Airline
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:58 pm

Well, its better to have your salary decreased rather than being made redundant
 
strickerje
Posts: 706
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:59 pm

Disregarding the decision of United's mechanics, I'd suggest you take a more benign approach if you wish for people to consider your point of view. For example, regardless of whether you were right or not, the following passages most likely turned people against you right from the start:

I hope that the people ... enjoy living on food stamps and welfare for the next few years!
I have no sympathy for any of the mechanics who will no longer have a job ...
yet you selfish bastards continue to make it difficult for UA to stay in the air!
I hope all of you union mechanics that work for UA starve to death ...


A job is a symbol of one's livelyhood. Saying you hope someone loses his job is like saying you hope they starve to death. Oh wait, you said that too. Take a moment to think how well your statements will be received by your audience, and show a little discretion!

-Jeffrey
 
JayDavis
Topic Author
Posts: 1870
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Hey Jeffrey

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:08 pm

I thought about EVERY word I said and I don't feel any grief or sorrow over any sentence I wrote.

These idiots are not going to have a job PERIOD after the bankruptcy filing. I would MUCH rather continue to have a job, even at a lower wage, than not earning any wage since many mechanics will be completely out of a job with no chance of ever returning..........

I have no sympathy for their selfish acts against UA !!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:30 pm

Hey tough guy what about UA's greedy SOB pilots HUH?????

Bagmasher, in the pilot's place, you would have taken the same damn deal if it were offered to you-any of us would. That's not to dismiss the fact that pilot's unions-no matter what carrier, are the biggest crybabies around. They make the most, and bitch the most. But blame management for that faux pas, not the pilots. It was handed to them in this case.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:35 pm

We wouldn't have gotten that deal because we don't resort to 1 mph taxiing, or refusing an aircraft for a dirty carpet. Yes, these things really did happen.
 
drgreen757
Posts: 144
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:44 pm

Ex National Airline Mechanic here........I wish I had a job.  Crying
Save the grey ghosts.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 5:22 pm

Right -on Jaydavis !!! The CEO's are only looking out for the employee's best interest's. Just like Enron. But them greedy employee's still want health care AND a paycheck simply for coming to work and making airplanes fly away safe ??? What nerve. In this sluggish economy some CEO's have taken bonuses that are (in some cases) less them 7 figures! Their doing their part why won't them worthless mechanics do theirs?
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Guest

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:46 pm

For anyone interested, the Economist has likened the mechanic´s logic to turkeys voting for xmas. Article in this week´s business section.

Management weakness is also blamed.

Rgds
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:58 pm

As an Eastern survivor who walked a picket line for four and a half months I can sympathize with their plight. The most important lesson I learned during that difficult period was not to judge others. Yes, it does appear that the UAL mechanics are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. But sometimes taking an unpopular stand takes a lot more courage than following what seems to the rest of the world as common sense. I do hope they fully appreciate the consequences of their actions and don't expect a "white knight" to come in and rescue them. Best of luck to all concerned~
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 10:44 pm

United will no doubt file for Chapter 11. Whether the carrier will go under or not is difficult to predict, but it will not survive as the #2 US airline under Chapter 11. I would bet that it would become the 3rd biggest carrier, with Delta picking up some of the slack from United's retrenchment.

ContinentalEWR
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 10:56 pm

There will be some major problems if UA does go belly up !!
 
godbless
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:57 pm

The mechanics must have some reasons why they said no. But what this shows is that they are the group that feels the least connected to "their" United Airlines and after a (maybe will happen) rise to healthier altitudes should one by one be replaced by people who want to help their airline stay alive and not only by fixing planes. And what those mechanics should know is that they are nothing really hard to replace since there are many of them wanting to get back to work (As mentioned: Ex National mechanics for example).
And if I would be the CEO of UA (or whoever is responsible) I would do everything to replace the oposition in the company.

And another aspect which isn't really common in the US today is to have other airlines maintain your fleet.
Lufthansa with it's partner company Lufthansa Technik is in charge of the maintainance of the fleets of more than 200 airlines worldwide.
And if you consider the reduced fleetsize of all US-airlines after 9/11 then other airlines should be glad to be able to fill up capacity in their hangars by working for other airlines.
For example Northwest could take care of the A320 and 747 fleet and AA could handle the rest or however it is cheaper for UA...

Max
 
Alpha 1
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:00 am

There will be some major problems if UA does go belly up !!

It will be a blow to the overall economy if UA were to cease operations-something I can't even fathom, even as an employee at a competitor. But, if you think about it, it will be a boon, at least in the short haul, if UA goes under, because it takes a ton of capacity out of circulation, and will drive people to other carriers. One problem right now is that there are way too many empty seats out there right now, and with UA (and most likely US as well) going under in the worst-case scenario, it would greatly benefit the surviving carriers.
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:15 am

This "us vs. them" mentality has always been no good for the airline business. Think about how much better the airline industry would be if everybody worked for the common goal. It seems as if a company makes a profit everybody wants more of the pie. This thinking has led to this result. You can blame 9-11 or the poor economy all you want but since the profits that were made during the good times were used for higher salaries and lavish spending. These carriers are faced with bankruptcy because they didn't put enough away for the rainy days. Management and Unions combined!!!!
 
Guest

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:28 am

JayDavis, I think you are being a bit harsh about saying you hope they starve to death and enjoy living on welfare. They are people just like you who have busted there ass and went years without a contract. I dont agree with them on there vote, but at the same time I dont blame them. It would be a shame to see a family of 5 go on food stamps. By the way, this post just shows how much of a heartless bastard you are.

UALrampORD
 
Guest

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:58 am

I support Jay Davis' post and I hope that it is not deleted. While strong in tone, the ramifications of the union's decision are huge and will no doubt have dire consequences for UA. I think the answer to the question of why they voted the pay cut down is simple: poor union leadership. There has been some talk of this being a courageous move on the part of the union-to take a stand. I say that it absurd. It is anything BUT courageous.
 
LMP737
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:34 am

I think Mr. Davis has taken a rather simplistic view of the situation at United. In addition to that his remarks show a bit of "ignorance" on his part. It's easy to attack someone and call them an "idiot" when you are totally removed from the situation they are in.

While I believe that UAL AMT's made a mistake I can understand their frustration. UAL mechanics went for years without a contract. They watched as the pilots got everything they wanted and then saw the company play hardball with them. Then there was that little adventure with Avolar. UAL was prepared to spend billions on biz jets while at the same time saying they were short on money. To top it off a lot of UAL AMT's don't even want to be part of the IAM but they are stuck with them due to the way the system is set up.

With that said if it were me I would have voted for the 7% paycut. Better 7% now than possible Chapter 11 and even bigger pay cuts. Then there's the fact all that ESOP stock will become even more worthless than it is now. It's obvious that they let their emotions make the decision for them. Never make an important decision while your upset.

P.S. For those who blame Eastern mechanics for the downfall of Eastern one had better look in the direction of on Frank Lorenzo.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
AA717driver
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:36 am

Pmacdonald--The IAM 141M leadership recommended STRONGLY that their members accept this agreement. I know one of the things they were upset about was that after Goodwin handed ALPA their contract on a platter, he went to war with the IAM. It took Goodwin's departure to get the mechanics a contract--knowing that concessions were on the horizion.

On the subject of Goodwin, should the unions have gone on strike to prevent the ill-advised merger attempt with USAir? How about when UAL senior management embarked on the Avolar project when the fractional ownership market was already saturated? What recourse do the employees have when those entrusted with their lives and careers are seemingly determined to undermine the financial health of THEIR company?

You can't have it both ways--you can't ask the employees for unquestioned loyalty and boundless sacrifice while depriving them of the opportunity to thwart irresponsible behavior by senior management.

This vote was an act of desperation by a group that had patiently waited for their reward to come, only to be greeted by demands for givebacks. If you haven't been in the shoes of those who voted no, you cannot know their motivation. I have been there and I understand. It may not be right, but I do understand their motivation.

Goodwin and Dutta are enjoying their multi-million dollar severance package while nursing their bruised egos on a tropical island somewhere, I would imagine.TC
FL450, M.85
 
Guest

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:27 am

AA717driver:
On the leadership issue: I am aware that IAM urged their members to accept the wage concessions. However, I am still of the opinion that poor leadership is what brought this situation to this point (and I do mean leadership-or lack there of-on BOTH sides). I would argue that the fact that the union members did not heed the recommendation of the union leadership is a perfect illustration of a leadership problem in and of itself. PM
 
G-CIVP
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:57 am

I don't think Jay is taking a simplistic view of United's present troubles. Its quite simple, either the big American carriers cut costs, cut capacity or go bust!
 
srbmod
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:16 am

The IAM is one of the most idiotic unions around. I really don't see why anyone wants to be represented by them. This is the union responsible for putting the final nail in the coffin @ EA, and looks like they could be doing that again @ UA. The IAM is trying to get their numbers back up to what they were when Eastern was still around, but can't. NW's mechanics booted them out three years ago after many years of representation; the IAM's attempts to unionize the ramp and gate agents @ AirTran have failed miserable (I was there back in '99 when they tried, and they were severly trounced in the voting. It actually pitted friends against friends.), and it took U.S. Airways customer service employees service years to get their first union contract after voting the IAM in. The IAM should be booted from representing UA's machinists, and shame on those that voted no on the wage concessions. From what I heard last night, United has a large debt payment due this month, and now with the rejection of wage concessions from the machinists, the spector of CH. 11 looms very heavily over at UA. Regardless of whether they make the debt payment or not, they will file CH. 11 sometime in the next month, because after making the debt payment, United will only have about 90s days operational cash on hand, and that is what will force them into CH. 11. U.S. Airways filed for CH. 11 when they had about $1 billion in cash on hand, and were burning through that money at an alarming rate. American may be the next one to get into some difficulty since the IAM does represent some of AA's employees.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:22 am

P.S. For those who blame Eastern mechanics for the downfall of Eastern one had better look in the direction of on Frank Lorenzo.

That's only a half-truth. Lorenzo was a SOB, no doubt, but the machinists are just as much to blame for Eastern's downfall as Lorenzo. They were led by a maniac named Charlie Bryan, who publically stated he was willing to let Eastern go out of business instead of dealing with Lorenzo at all. And the mechanics fell lock step in line with him. He wasn't even WILLING to make a deal, so EA had no chance. Blaming it all on Lorenzo is simplistic, one-sided, and only half the true story. I know-I live through it.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:33 am

Jay Davis, you need to understand US bankruptcy law a bit better. I'm not an attorney but here's my rudimentary understanding. Chapter 11, which United Airlines will most likely file under, does not put a company out of business. United will not shut its doors. Chapter 11 allows a company to "reorganize" including renegotiating existing contracts, and protects it from creditors while undergoing restructuring. US Airways is operating under Chapter 11 right now. The employees at United will still have jobs, including the mechanics, and United will still be flying. However their union contracts will likely be changed under the protection of the bankruptcy court. I agree, I think the mechanics made a mistake because I think the deal they were offered is better than they'll get while United is in bankruptcy protection.

Any attorneys out there who understand the law better than I? Chapter 13 is when a company goes out of business, but this isn't what United will do.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:38 am

I somewhat agree with JayDavis's orriginal post.

The mechanics are making more than most other United workers are making, aren't they making something like $36.00 per hour? Aren't they one of the top paid mechanics in the industry? So a 7% pay cut happens, what would that put them down to $34.50 an hour? That's still a lot more than they will get in their unemployment checks if United goes belly up. Its not as easy as it was a couple years ago where if you lose your job at United, you could just hop over to Northwest or Delta when all of those airlines are cutting back jobs too.

Now, on the other hand, have the Greediest among the greedy been taking their share of paycuts too? I'm talking about the CEOs- why do they need $900,000 a year when they can live on $200,000 a year? So they can trade that $100,000 Benz in and get a $45,000 Licoln. They can give up one of their multimillion dollar vacation homes too. Sell it and put the money into the companies pot to get them out of debt. Most likely those houses came at company expense anyway.

I just wonder how often the big guys at the top take their share of paycuts when the worker at the bottom have to struggle to survive on lower amounts.

 
Bicoastal
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 4:52 am

I believe there have been major layoffs in United's management ranks AND they have taken paycuts. Given the number of line employees vs. management, there's no way management pay cuts alone can make up the difference that United needs.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
Dash8King
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:29 am

Yes UAL must pay 325 million next week and that is why it is believed they will file for Chapter 11 in the next week or two. Chapter 11 does NOT mean they will stop operating but they will cut capacity.
 
Guest

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:06 am

hlywdcatft:

Don't expect to see any person adequately qualified to run a company like UA to do it for 200 grand a year (which would be about 100 after taxes, mind you). That would be an insult. I don't want this to become a debate over corporate / CEO greed, but like any investment you have to fork over some money to get a quality return. I know there are plenty examples of ridiculous corporate greed out there, but just because you do not hear of examples of the opposite does not mean they do not exist. You know how our media is. Fred Smith, head of FedEx is a perfect example. He could be taking much more money for himself than he does. He instead reinvests a good deal of money back into the company (as you suggested folks to do). He's always done this-not just doing it now when corporate scandals are all the rage. Of course Fred Smith is not your typical CEO. Just thought I would point that out. PM
 
TommyBoy
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:18 am

The bottom line question for United and all the struggling carriers is...how much of a pay cut has management...particularly the upper 6 & 7 fugure guys, taken? They should be taking the biggest percentage cuts, after all it's their failures that have gotten United to where it is. And the rest of the majors' management teams haven't done any better....
Personally, I applaud the United mechanics...what they're saying is, it's time for management to feel cuts AT LEAST as deep as the people who do the REAL work (mechanics, pilots, f/a's, ramp workers, etc)
 
JayDavis
Topic Author
Posts: 1870
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 7:45 am

I agree with some of you that have posted recently saying that management should ALSO take some pay cuts. That is a very good suggestion.

I still have not changed my view one bit after this long
discussion about the IAM and their voting to not accept wage cut-backs.

Yes, I understand if UA goes into Chapter 11, it doesn't mean that they quit flying forever; however, it does mean it will cut employees much more so, than if they didn't file the bankruptcy filing. Also, in Chapter 11, I don't think they can just "void" their current contracts, but I have read that the work rules "will change" and more than likely it will be to UA management's benefit. That is why I feel the way I do about this issue.

If the mechanics are so fricking stupid to follow their idiotic union leaders down the path to destruction, so be it. They will be standing in line at a soup kitchen and living on food stamps. Sorry to sound like such a heartless bastard, because I really am not that type of person. I've even been laid off myself from a job, but if I had the choice to lower my wages and keep my job or keep my wages the current rate and lose my job, gee, I wonder which option I'd choose?

It is a NO-BRAINER !!

Unions have NO BRAINS !!



Flame away..................

Jay Davis
 
Fokker Lover
Posts: 523
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 10:05 am

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 7:53 am

It seems that most of the people here are making the wrong assumption that a yes vote would prevent a chapter 11 filing. As a dues paying IAM member I can tell you that I have already read that book, and I can tell you how it ends. There was a 57% NO vote. In the next week there will be "informational meetings". They will tell you that you were confused. You didn't understand the importance of this vote. They will even say that your wife called to demand a second vote. Out of the goodness of their hearts they will "allow" you to vote again so you can do the right thing and "save your job". In the weeks to come you will have evidence that the IAM and the company lied to you. You will vote NO the second time with even more confidence and resolve. You and your fellow mechanics will pose for pictures and hold up your ballots as proof of a NO vote. When you go home after talking to all of your coworkers, you will have confidence in a 95% no vote, and you will believe that you sent a message. When you wake up in the morning. You will be stunned to hear that you approved the concessions with a 57% yes vote. (57% is the only number the IAM knows.) You will also realize that the only message sent was the one saying the IAM is in the company's hip pocket.
You will take a pay cut. UAL will file Chapter 11, and you will STILL suffer from layoffs. The remaining employees will then be told to dig deeper for a second round of pay cuts, because it just wasn't enough the first time around. You won't vote on this, because there was hidden language in the last package preventing a vote.
The only chapter not yet written in this train wreck is which name they are going to keep when they merge what is left of United with what is left of USAir. Look closely United Employees. WE ARE YOUR FUTURE, and they are lying to you. A yes vote will not change their plans, nor will it save your job. Vote NO, then vote AMFA.
To Mr. Jay Davis,who believes what he reads in the paper, and then thinks he's an expert. I would like you to come to Pittsburgh, so you can see what it's like to drink a bucket of skydrol or inhale a lung full of ZipChem laced with trichlorofluoroethane. Maybe some Methyl Ethyl Ketone splashed in your eyes will help clear your vision as to what it's really like to work on an airplane and have thousands of lives entrusted to you. I doubt it though, because you are just a turd living an aviation fantasy.
10,000 years ago we would have eaten you. Today, we drag you along and allow you to pollute the gene pool.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Fokker Lover

Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:43 am

I couldn't agree more! I am attending A&P school right now, and I have since come to respect the "lazy" mechanics at the airlines. It is not all fun and games. They have to go through some rather difficult coursework and need to pass all their tests. Darn right they should get paid a good buck for what they do. There is a helluva lot of responsibility there. Their signature stays with that aircraft long after they work on it. If I were a mechanic already, you better believe I would stick up for my wages. I realize I will probably not find an A&P job to save my life when I graduate, but at least the jobs that do exist will pay fair wages.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4859
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:49 am

.....follow their idiotic union leadership...."


Actually Mr. Davis if you knew a little more about the situation you would have realized that the IAM leadership recommended that it's members approve the paycuts.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:53 am

UALBagsmasher
I now see the source of your anger against pilots. If you were in college or flight school right now instead of A&P school I guess you would be sticking up for the pilots instead of mechanics in general. I wouldn't argue the merits of the Summer of Hell all of you had to deal with at United but you seem a bit more interested in the merits of the mechanics arguments than those of the pilots a year ago. That's understandable now that you have let us know what your career goals now are.

IAHERJ
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Iaherj

Sun Dec 01, 2002 9:05 am

Well, that's one reason. The main reason is that the pilots used their ability to screw UA more than any other labor group. They have the advantage of having the final say whether or not they will accept their aircraft. They abused that right. When they mechanics tried that game, they were slapped with an injunction. I don't get the double standard there.
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 9:21 am

Yes they do have final say as you mentioned. They also have the FAA on their side to back up any decision the captain makes. There are so many instances in everyday flying where the captain has to "overlook" certain nit picky rules/regualtions albeit company or FAA in order to actually get an aircraft grom gate to gate in an on-time fashion. When a group is frustrated with the company for dragging something out such as a new contract which expired a long time ago, the pilots do not feel the need to let certain things slide anymore. The problem is that once things return to normal, the pilots help out the company once again and cut a few corners not jeopardizing safety but allowing the airline to run more efficiently and that becomes the norm again. Not disagreeing with you but offering a slight defense of the UAL pilots and mechanics in this situation.

As far as the rejection goes, I think these mechanics are very tired and worn out from years of being lied to etc by management. Look at USAir. Their mechanics and other groups negotiated rates lower only to be told around Thanksgiving that they would be out of a job anyway by Christmas. If UAL goes into bankrupsy next week, the mechanics will not be the only reason. This would have happened anyway.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
UAL Bagsmasher
Posts: 1839
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 1999 12:52 pm

RE: Iaherj

Sun Dec 01, 2002 9:31 am

See, you have an insider's understanding of how the airlines run. Thanks for your perspective. All these armchair CEOs in this forum make me sick. They are self-proclaimed experts in the airline business. Makes me wanna vomit.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:01 pm

Pmacdonald--Maybe it's more a case of the monster that the IAM leadership created. You build a radical, hard-line union and then wonder why the members don't do what you want them to. Mechs aren't a bunch of knuckle-draggers, they are college educated professionals. They just know what Fokker Lover does--once the concession stand opens, it never closes.

Bankruptcy Laws--Ch. 11 allows a corporation to continue operating while deals are worked out or mandated by the court. Ch. 7 is a fire sale. Whatever money is raised by the sale of assets is distributed amongst the creditors in order determined by the court. Now, within Ch. 11 are a couple of sections. Sec. 365 is the "normal" way to file. TWA and AA found Sec. 363 which allows the court far greater latitude in determining which creditors and labor groups stay or go, get paid or not.

AND...buried within Sec. 363 is Sec. 1113 which allows the judge to void all or part of a company's labor agreement. This is the new union busting. No Pinkerton guards or scabs, just a neat, low-profile legal proceeding. If I hadn't lived through it, I wouldn't have believed it was so easy.

USAir's unions rolled over under threat of 363/1113 and gave the concessions the company wanted. The company is now back threatening Ch. 7 if the employees don't give more. They won't be happy until everyone is making AirTran wages. Try raising a family on that in Philly.

UALbagsmasher--Every labor group has its problem children. TWA had the mech in JFK who took 48 hours to change the tire on a 727(normally a two hour job in the Hanger). Sure, some of the pilots in the "summer of love" caused problems. That was after the company promised expedited contract negotiations(beginning 6 mos. or so before the amendable date) then dragged their feet for a year. Goodwin bought their acquiescence to the USAir merger with that contract. There are always two sides to every story.TC

FL450, M.85
 
tu154m
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:24 pm

Did anyone read MD88 Captains post in this topic??? I am an AMT in ATL for the same airline and I have 3 dogs.....and walk them all myself!!!(Isn't that the joy of owning a dog?). My point is....anyone who has a person come walk their dogs has entirely to much $$$$$!!!!!! I think DL's pilots will be like 27% above everyone if UA's had taken the cuts. We found a pay stub on an 88 the other day and it was for like $11,000!!!!!AFTER taxes!!!!! We get paid twice a month......you do the math. I understand why the mechs voted NO when you see someone making that much, working a third of the hours. It will never change. It just seems that all parties aren't sharing the blame. It is getting bad at DL as all of the cuts are aimed at NON-CONTRACT EMPLOYEES.......i.e NON UNION. In other words, DL management is raping everyone but the pilots because they are scared to death of their power. They will retire, get raises, and get fatter. While the rest of the airline industry is contracted and sub-contracted to DEATH.
Steve
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
JayDavis
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Hey Fokker Lover

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:40 pm

Enjoy the food stamps and soup kitchen this Holiday Season! I am not living in some aviation fantasy. I am a management employee for a foreign airline that is the LARGEST carrier across the Pacific and obviously, it ain't your crummy, almost bankrupt airline !!

Get a grip buddy, either you vote to lower your wages, no matter "how important" your job is or you won't be working at all, except maybe, just maybe, flipping burgers at a McDonald's or Burger King.

I have no sympathy for the unions, pilot's unions included!
If all of you people don't "get it", you never will !!

Either take lower wages and continue to have a job, or refuse the lower wages and be out of a job, probably on a permanent basis.

It "IS" just that simple.


And to LMP737, if the IAM leadership did tell the members to accept the paycuts and they (the members) didn't, than I really feel sorry for the members of the union for not listening to their leadership. I did not realize that the union leaders told them to take the pay cuts. Once again, cutting their noses off to spite their face...........

 
apathoid
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:47 pm

Well, I certainly disagree with the union's decision, but there are a few things you must keep in mind.

One big problem with the machinist union is that it represent ground support and fleet service as well as maintenance. Funny, you don't see anyone saying "those damn rampers!"

The mechanics won their first wage increase since 1994 just last year. ALPA has terrorized the airline into an insane wage structure for the pilots. IMO, the pilot's need to make proportional wage concessions, which they haven't.

Thirdly, the airlines are going to go back to regulation. It is now inevitable. So it hardly matters what the mechanics did at this point. United is going to die, and so are most of the other majors. So, regulation will come back and the first thing they will do is restructure the wage scale to a reasonable level.

Personally, if they want my tax dollars for a bailout, ALPA has to go. I know you pilot wannabes are gonna flame the bejesus out of me for that, but that is what is going to have to happen.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:49 pm

Back when things were going full-bore (late 1990s) the unions' battle-cry about how the execs were making millions made their own case look sort of sensible. Back 'then,' unions had their allies because that kind of story resonated. "Yeah...that EVIL, EVIL management is the root of ALL troubles." Now the bloom is off the rose, and that battle-cry no longer holds water. Now, across the land, 'management' has been trashed and the unions no longer have their favorite scapegoat to kick around. But still they belly up to the bar and 'demand' pay RAISES at a time when MILLIONS are LOSING jobs left and right in many other industries. The unions also aren't going to make any headway trying to convince people that the industry isn't as sick as the headlines make it out to be. Newsflash to IAM and all those other unions who are stuck in a 1990's time warp: it IS sick, and YOU are the root cause. For a union to make its case, they need to win over other constituents. In other words, the public. That's why the pilots wear out their shoes walking around in circles at airports when they go on strike, especially when TV cameras are nearby. But guess what? the public isn't buying the unions' 'plight' now because they can see right through it.

Bottom line, if John Doe gets laid off from a high-tech company he sure as hell isn't going to run to YOUR side. To have a 'protected' job like union workers have is a luxury that the vast majority of Americans can't relate to. While union workers can (and do) get laid off, the perception is that unions are largely a protected gravy train for their members. And coming to the trough for MORE at a time when Americans are getting laid off and losing their homes smacks of 'entitlement.' And 'entitlement' is exactly what unions live by.

Quite frankly, the PR nightmare for the IAM is very clear. They are now and forever will be blamed for United Airlines' downfall. The focus and spotlight will always be on them, and similarly on other unions around the U.S. It is about time their 'out-of-touch' reality was exposed. I am very happy to see that the IAM is getting the blame here, and rightly so. Here's a hole they'll find no help digging themselves out of. No pilot or FA should come to their aid, and they won't.
 
JayDavis
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Apathoid, What Have You Been Smoking?

Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:02 pm

Re-Regulation will NEVER return. Deregulation has been the spark that led to success stories like Southwest Airlines and JetBlue. Yes, there have been a LOT of deregulation start-ups that went under, too many to name in this post, but I hope you see my point. Southwest was already in business before deregulation went into effect, but ONLY in Texas because the CAB couldn't touch them.

Deregulation, in spite of its many critics and flaws, has worked in letting a "free-market" economy happen in the airline industry. If deregulation had not have happened, do you think that the "masses" or "common man" like myself would ever have enough $$$$ to fly? No way !!

I strongly disagree with you that "re-regulation" will happen, at least not in my lifetime.........

 
UAL Bagsmasher
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RE: JayDavis

Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:14 pm

" I am a management employee ...."


Enough said.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: United's Mechanics Are Idiots!

Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:15 pm

Make no mistake, United's management knows exactly what they are doing, anytime they can make the union look bad AND pay less to the members it is a win win for United's management.... And everyone buys managements B/S except the mechanics themselves ... GOB BLESS THEM ALL. Don't cave-in.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!