Douglas DC-9
Topic Author
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:39 am

Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:47 am

I got into a talk with a man at my farm and he said that he was once on a turbo prop aircraft with diesel engines! Is this posible? I would almost guess "no" due to the fact that diesels need a lot of air in order to operate. Was he telling the truth, he didn't seem as if he was "sloshed; or drunk" but someone please tell me if this is possible.

Thanks Much,
Daniel


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon

 
2912n
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:12 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:51 am

There is a light civil that is currently going through certification that is powered with a diesel engine. From what I have read it is the first diesel powered a/c. (But don't quote me on that one...)
 
2912n
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:12 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:54 am

Silly me....Heres a website that talks about one from just after WWII

home.earthlink.net/~ralphcooper/pimagf30.htm
 
sccutler
Posts: 5555
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:57 am

Jet fuel is essentially the same as Diesel fuel.

In addition, there are several groups which are working on, or have certified, diesel engines for use in general aviation aircraft. They are, in fact, likely to be the longer-term future of general aviation powerplants, as aviation gasoline becomes scarcer. The new diesels burn Jet A fuel just fine.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3540
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:02 am

I was speaking to one of our engineers the other week whilst they were changing a fuel pump on an A343, and he was saying that jet engines work on the same priciple as diesel engines, in the way they compress the fuel to ignite it, without the need for a spark as in petrol engines. He also said that Kerosene is basically another form of diesel too.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
gr8slvrflt
Posts: 1443
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:53 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:22 am

Diesel aircraft engines such as the Junkers Jumo were quite common on German civil and military aircraft before and during World War II. BMW also made diesel engines, I believe. Diesel engines use compression to initate cumbustion, rather than a spark plug or other form of ignitor. Even if a turbine engine could be made to run on diesel fuel, it would not technically be a diesel engine.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
T prop
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:17 am

It is possible to run a turboprop engine on diesel fuel, I've seen a turboprop ag plane that runs on diesel.

If this guy is saying that he was on a turboprop that had diesel engines, then he wasn't on a turboprop. The only thing in common that a turbine engine has with a reciprocating diesel engine is they are both internal combustion engines.

T prop.
 
Douglas DC-9
Topic Author
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2001 2:39 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:22 pm

Thanks for your input. I do know that Jet fuel is NOT the same is Diesel. Diesel is very heavy; and thick and cannot explode; it is also oil based, I also know that jet fuel is very light, and just a simple static-electricty spark will set it afire!
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:41 pm

Diesel fuel and Jet Fuel are both members of the Kerosene family. Other then water and wax content, both are practically the same. And neither is particularly easy to light. You need compression and heat to light it off. I would not consider either "sparky" in any sense of the word.

The military fuel JP-8 is very close to Jet A and the military has used it on both aircraft and vehicles. I have fueled a lot of construction equiptment with Jet A just to make sure that the fuel wouldn't gel where they where working, (Alaska) that is one of the big reasons for the low wax content in Jet vs. DF1 or DF2. The wax exists as a lubricant for some of the internal machinery in the engine, so in warm weather you want it in there.

There are some jet engine fuels you do have to be more static aware around. Military JP-4 is the big one, but that is all but removed from service in favor of the JP-8. I have never worked with Jet B but I am under the standing that it is simular to the JP-4 mix and should be handled simularly.

There various forms of Avgas and Autogas worried me more about sparking off then the diesel fuel.



By definition a turbine engine is actually a multifuel engine. In addition to jet fuel and diesel oil, there are some that where used as booster engines on piston powered aircraft that burned Avgas. The powerplant here at ANC burns natural gas in their turbines and the powerplants for the pipeline tap crude oil from the line for fuel.

And in just about every POH for a turbine aircraft will have a table listing alternate fuels and operating limits. Some limit the time the engine can be run. Some limit the amount of fuel that can be burn. Some will require additives such as engine oil to be added.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
AC183
Posts: 1496
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:14 pm

"turboprop" and "diesel" are really contradictions, as they generally refer to totally separate types of engines.

As for similarities in the jet engine (or gas turbine, or Brayton Cycle engine) with an engine running on the Diesel Cycle, I'm not sure you could classify a continuous combustion (turbine) engine as being the same as a compression ignition (diesel) engine in terms of igniting the fuel, but the thermodynamic cycles do have some similarities.

As for the fuel question, as L-188 said, both diesel fuel and jet fuel are basically kerosenes. Both have flashpoints that are much higher than gasoline (IIRC, gasoline has a flashpoint of around -40C (-40F), which is why it's so dangerous, whereas kerosenes are around 40C (~100F)) (also note that flashpoint is the lowest temp that the vapours can combust, but is not the same as autoignition temperature).

Diesel engines tend to be heavier than similar spark-ignition (gasoline) engines, and usually operate at lower speeds, but are longer lasting, have better torque curves, and are able to burn different fuels. The last reason is the biggest part of why general aviation aircraft are beginning to look at diesel power.

Further to the similarities of fuels... saying "jet" or "diesel" fuel has no real meaning beyond application - the exact composition will vary depending on the conditions they are blended for use in. For instance, I've heard of turbines burning diesel, and if you look up acceptable diesel fuels in a heavy equipment operators manual, it will list a variety of fuels that can be burned (IIRC from a certain Caterpillar diesel engine, I seem to recall a couple of grades of "diesel fuel," as well as a few kerosene derivatives). For that matter, diesel fuel sold here in western Canada will vary in composition by season to prevent it from "gelling" (basically freezing) in the fuel tank.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:27 pm

SUCK BANG BLOW! SUCK BANG BLOW!

That is what any combustion engine does.

80 octane or red fuel hasn't be available for probably 20 years.

I also have never seen green gas which was the 100 octane lead gas. It went out about 30 years ago.

Both where pretty much replaced when 100LL or Blue Gas was introduced on the market.

I have seen purple gas, which if memory serves was 115/130. We found in it a WWII vintage underground fuel tank we had to clean up. The supervisors pickup truck, which had a 350 Chevy in it ran really really well with it in it.

As far a pink diesel fuel, there is only one possibility and it is pretty scary.

A few years back, I think it was the US treasury department (I think) ruled that home heating oil had to be dyed red to differentiate it from identical diesel fuel for trucks and cars which have more taxes associated from it. The idea for them was to stop jobbers from selling home heating fuel at auto diesel and keeping the governments share of the taxes.

As has been mentioned above, 80 Lead is also dyed red, so this proposal got a lot of fire from AOPA and some of the other aviation groups but it pretty much fell on deaf ears.

What ended up happening where I worked was that the same tanker would make home heating fuel deliveries (red diesel) and then stock up and make a round of the big construction project(clear diesel) filling up their equipment. Enviably since you can never empty a tanker that completely the diesel that was for machinery took on a pinkish color because it was mixing with the dyed fuel. It is all the same stuff but did make for a weird looking gas.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:44 pm

There are several threads on this in the Tech/ops forum that will have a bit better and more reliable information.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
T prop
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:51 pm

I also have never seen green gas which was the 100 octane lead gas. It went out about 30 years ago.

L-188, I guess in Hawaii we're a little behind the times. The only thing we have around here for avgas is the green stuff. The only blue gas I have ever seen is at the bottom of a ferry tank.  Smile

T prop.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:58 pm

I didn't know that. It actually does surprise me T-Prop.

My understanding was that the supply of both 80 and 100 went to nil when 100 Low Lead came out and everybody went ape over trying not to burn leaded fuel oil.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 5:28 pm

I should add that I was also under the understanding that 80 octane remaind on the market for a bit longer since it wasn't as compatable of a substitute as 100 and 100LL.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
T prop
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:33 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sat Dec 07, 2002 6:40 pm

Compared to the rest of the U.S. there are not very many aircraft here that need avgas. I think the local Chevron refinery is the only one that produces avgas and given the small amount they refine, it's probably not worth switching to blue.


Although cleaning the spark plugs on a Navajo Cheiftain every 100 hours makes me wonder if the blue gas leaves less deposits than the green. If so I'm all for it!  Big thumbs up

T prop.

 
lmml 14/32
Posts: 2358
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:27 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sun Dec 08, 2002 2:21 am

727 Diesel !!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean-Pierre Tabone Adami

 
fanofjets
Posts: 1977
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:31 am

The Luftwaffe experimented with diesel engines on aircraft during the latter part of WWII. The huge Blomm und Voss Bv.222C, the seventh of the prototypes, was powered by Junkers Jumo 207C six 12-cylinder diesels (the precesessors featured radial engines). The aircraft served as a sea-borne troop carrier until a few years after the war, when it was scrapped. The leviathan bore the honor as the largest flying boat of the war, but it was quickly superseded at the end of the war by the Martin Mars.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:54 am

SUCK BANG BLOW! SUCK BANG BLOW! That is what any combustion engine does.

That's also the sequence for every porn video.

With a POP! at the end.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
david_mx
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 1999 10:44 pm

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:09 am

Well here there are:
Diesel 8 and Diesel 10

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jonathan Derden



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Konstantin von Wedelstaedt



Regards.
David  Laugh out loud



 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:25 am

for those who want to know more about modern diesel engines, visit
http://www.smaengines.com/en/index_en.shtml

This program has been developped by Renault when they left Formula 1 at the end of the 90s.

Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Diesel Aircraft?!?!?!?!

Sun Dec 08, 2002 10:05 am

The problem is that if you are in a helicopter and the engine goes "POP", well you have a bit more of a problem then just staining the carpet.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A330NZ, AS512, audidudi, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], caleb1, doulasc, EIDAA, gennadius, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], haggis73, ikolkyo, jbs2886, jetblastdubai, jetstar, kimshep, lhpdx, lostsound, MAH4546, northstardc4m, Prost, pugsley, QANTAS747-438, res77W, thomasphoto60, timberwolf24, Yflyer and 288 guests