sccutler
Posts: 5568
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Official: UAL Files 11

Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:20 pm

NBC News just broke, Chpt 11 filed in Chicago's US Bankruptcy Court.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
keesje
Posts: 8754
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Official:

Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:22 pm


sad sad ..

CHICAGO (AP) -- United Airlines, reeling from two years of heavy losses and unable to pay off nearly $1 billion in debt that comes due this week, filed for federal bankruptcy court protection Monday.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/021209/united_airlines_2.html
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
sccutler
Posts: 5568
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Forum Title

Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:24 pm

Sorry gang, did not know that a colon would truncate the rest of the title; originally read "Official: UAL Files 11"
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
aamd11
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:54 am

RE: Official:

Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:28 pm

Now we sit and wait to see what becomes of them.
My guess is a significantly leaner carrier, they will be around for a long time, but not in its "bloated" form.

A sad day for all those it concerns, employees of United especially.

A^A MD-11
 
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skippy777
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2001 6:01 pm

RE: Official:

Mon Dec 09, 2002 9:35 pm

Another sad day in the aviation history.

United gone as well ??????
I hope they still can work something out
 
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apuneger
Posts: 2964
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:43 pm

RE: Official:

Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:11 pm

Sad indeed. Does anybody know if they're still going to fly into BRU tomorrow? If so I'll try to take a picture of one of the birds...

My thoughts are with all the employees right now!

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
lapper
Posts: 1537
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 6:42 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:05 pm

Skippy and Apuneger: United has not gone! Chapter 11 does not mean this is the end of the carrier right now, if indeed ever. Flights will still take place, so no need to rush out and start being sentimaental.
 
N751PR
Posts: 1210
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RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:38 pm

Another airline files for Chapter 11. I hope they emerge out of it instead of flying only in the history books.  Sad

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"Ladies and Gentlemen it's happy hour. You will get two approaches for the price of one."
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Mon Dec 09, 2002 11:59 pm

While I feel sorry for the hard working blue-collared employees of United, I have no pity whatsoever for the management & unions leaders. They bought this upon themselves. Sloppiness & greed is & will be their ultimate downfall. United they stood, divided they fell. To the working man & woman of United, things will get better, because they always do. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Bizjets
Posts: 135
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RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:01 am

You can read the filing
 
n175dz
Posts: 269
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RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:13 am

I for one hope they come out of Chapter 11 fine, in better shape than ever. Impressivley, ual.com appears to be already displaying a lot of information describing what this means to the customer.

I have several flights on United booked for next year and I'm looking forward to them. I've never had a bad experience with them and I will continue flying them as long as they're in the air.

United 'should' stand  Smile. I wish the best to all employees out there, espcially those on a.net.

cheers, Phil.
 
pressclub
Posts: 754
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 10:24 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:17 am

Skippy and Apuneger: Chapter 11 is not what you think it is. It is a kind of 'Concordaat' and not the end for the company.

Pressclub

According to a pressrelease I just got their flights continue as normal
 
Bizjets
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:11 pm

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:31 am

You can read the filing online

http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/united/120902ch11pet.pdf

Links aren't working for some reason.  Sad
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:41 am

I have a dumb question.

Normally when a company has filed for bankruptcy, the trading of its stock is halted, yet I see where UAL stock is still being traded as of right now (12 mllion shares traded so far today.) Why is that?

LoneStarMike

 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:16 am

Trading in the stock of bankrupt companies does happen. Sometimes trading is halted "pending news" right before or after a bankruptcy filing but there is no rule saying bankrupt companies can't be traded. This is because technically, it is possible for there to be something left for the original stockholders after reorganization. But this is rare. If the company has enough assets to pay all of its creditors + some left for the owners, then there is seldom a reason to file for bankruptcy in the first place.

The final death of a stock, I believe, is delisting from the exchange - not a halt in trading. Those of you who are considering buying United stock in hopes of a Continental-like rebound should keep in mind that the ORIGINAL stockholders of a bankrupt company are nearly always left with nothing. If you believe in a turnaround and have money to burn - buy when NEW stock is issued as part of the reorganization. THAT was the stock you could have bought to make allot of money off of Continental, etc. It is still a huge risk but there is a real chance of making money that way.

Check out the Motley Fool website if you want to learn more. Enter Bankruptcy as a search term and you should be able to find a better explanation for this.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6654
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RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:36 am

I'll bet the guy that started that Anti-United Airlines website is filled with glee.
Love Trumps Hate
 
MSY-MSP
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:18 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:43 am

I just read the bankruptcy filing. Very interesting. I also have my contact in the Bankruptcy court who read the proposed reorginization plan. It is very interesting according to him. We will hear more about the plan following the first hearing with the judge regarding access to the DIP financing.

On a side note, in the list of affiliated companies co-filing for chapter 11 one of the companies is AIR WISCONSIN, INC. I did not know that they were going to file also with UAL. If anyone knows the reason for this i would be interested to hear. IT is on page 4 of the petiton.

MSY-MSP
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:24 am

Trading in the stock of bankrupt companies does happen. Sometimes trading is halted "pending news" right before or after a bankruptcy filing but there is no rule saying bankrupt companies can't be traded. This is because technically, it is possible for there to be something left for the original stockholders after reorganization. But this is rare.

Thanks for the great explanation, Cloudy, and now that you mention it, I believe someone on another board had said that the America West bankruptcy several years ago was like that, where there was actually some money left for the orignal stockholders.

LoneStarMike

 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:24 am

Depressing news.  Sad
UA is one of my favourite carriers.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
desertjets
Posts: 7570
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:54 am

From what I read this morning in the Washington Post it said United is planning for a 18 month stint in Chapter 11. Makes me wonder why they aren't trying to do a fast track reorg like USAirways is doing. Can anybody speculate as to why.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
MSY-MSP
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:18 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:34 am

The main reason they are looking at a longer period of time in Chapter 11 is the complexity of some of thier debt issues. THe other reason is the shear size of UAL. The larger the company, the larger the debts, the longer it takes to sucessfully work your way out of bankruptcy.

The first thing UAL will need to do in bankruptcy is get the DIP court approved. THe second thing is to meet with the secured comittee, and negotiate with them repayment/forgiveness terms on their debts. Then they will need to meet with the unsecured comittee and work the same deal. Also during this time UAL will trim its costs. It will do this anyway it can. As others have speculated, there are many areas where this will occur, some we know about, but some will suprise even the best of us. The amount of debt here is amazing, and the time required will be extensive. That is why they are looking at 18 months.

MSY-MSP
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:06 am

That's rather shocking that Air Whiskey is also filing with UAL. Anyone have any more information?

joe
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4437
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:37 am

MSY-MSP and Jjbiv,

I'm only making an educated guess, but I would imagine that the Air Wisconsin Inc. refers to a corporation that UAL formed to own AWA in 1992. Today it is probably just a shell corporation that UAL kept active and could use if needed.

I believe the corporate names involved with owning and operating AirWisc today are:
Air Wisconsin Airlines Corporation
and
CJT Holdings, Inc.

Note the name difference between the 2 Air Wisconsins.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
MSY-MSP
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:18 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:01 am

That is what I thought, but when I read the petition it made me think otherwise. I just had to ask, in case I missed something on the ownership. Thanks for the input. Glad to see they aren't in this too.

MSY-MSP
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 1817
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:02 am

here's to hoping Chap 11 will also force them to reorganize their website.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
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apuneger
Posts: 2964
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:43 pm

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:00 am

Pressclub and Lapper: I knew that one (National,...); I just think Skippy777 got me goin'  Wink/being sarcastic

Anyway, I heard that BRU flights will resume as usual.

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:55 am

Is Air Wisconsin no longer a wholly owned subsidiary of UAL?

N
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4437
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: Official: UAL Files 11

Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:18 am

AWA was purchased from UAL in 1993. For more details, check this link at their website.
http://www.airwis.com/corporate.htm
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain