hmflyer
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2001 9:38 am

UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:39 am

Today while filing for CH. 11, UAL said it expects to lose $22 Million a day in December and $10-$15 million a day in January. This is an astounding loss rate, much more than I could ever have imagined. No wonder they were turned down my the ATSB, there was no way they could have granted a loan guarantee with these numbers.

This is what happens when a company is so arrogant as to think that they are too big to fail. Or when the employees believe that the company can pay them huge salaries, "because the money is there". It is also an example of just plain old bad management.

I hope that the current management team has the talent to do what needs to be done to bring UAL through bankruptcy. Hopefully this is a new beginning for UAL employees, and not the beginning of the end.

Good luck UAL.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:41 am

I personally think it is the beginning of the end for United. It will be a long and painful road to oblivion, a la Pan Am/TWA.

 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
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RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:49 am

Thats up to $1.1-1.2B loss in by the end of January. Wow, thats...bad.
 
MSY-MSP
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:18 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:03 am

Just makes me wonder if UA is losing $22M a day, how much are the others losing. I know AA is trying to make consesions with its unions to lower costs etc., but I believe their cash burn rate was higher that UA's based on the last released numbers. However, lets assume their rate is half that of UA's, ie $11M per day, that means that in the next 60 days AA will lose $660M. I forget what their cash reserves are, but that will have to put a dent into their stability as well. I think that we are on the cusp of a bankruptcy rush by the airlines just to survive. I remember reading another post about CO that said we are drowning in 2 feet of water and everyone else is drowning in 200 feet. This is looking to be quite true.

If anyone has numbers for other airlines on a per day rate and available cash reserves, it could be interesting to do the math.

MSY-MSP
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 4:30 am

The burn rates (if posted) in each company's financial results will be inaccurate, as they only reflect the rates current as of the end of 3Q02, ended 30 September.

Since burn rates will have increased (due to slower traffic) compared to 3Q numbers, it's sufficient to say they will be markedly worse than last reported.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Guest

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:08 am

The loss rate is nowhere near that much. I read the company message sent out to UAL employees, it did not state that the company will be losing that much money.
 
LJ
Posts: 4127
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:32 am

UAL 1837, you don't lie in a CH 11 filing.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:33 am

The statement was made by Jamie Spreyregen of K&E during court proceedings today. Having worked with Jamie extensively on the TWA bankruptcy case, I can assure you that he is a slimy snake and that you should take what he says with a huge pinch of salt.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:29 am

Here in the airline industry, we lose money the old-fashion way.
We burn it.  Sad
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:41 am

At Continental, they lost 37 million for the last quarter, basically divide the 37 by 90, and you get a daily cash burn of $411,000. A lot of money to lose, but a lot less than 22 million a day

The current quarter is worse, so the cash burn will be worse, but savings are kicking in at Continental now, simple things like charging for alcohol on Transatlantics has managed to boost liquer revenue by 46%

Jeremy
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:04 am

Whoops, stumbled on an anti-united thread.
sorry.


ual 777 contrail
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:08 am

I just have one comment.

"BWOOP BWOOP, SINK RATE"
Puhdiddle
 
propilotjw
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:09 am

UAL1837, UAL is losing that much...were you there when they filed? No.
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
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RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:55 am

Am I the only one that wants United to fail?!

The company has been mismanaged for years now and they are paying the penalties now. They even got fined by the FAA for flying non airworthiness planes. How pathetic is that?
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
N757ST
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:21 am

FlyingBronco- You are an ass. If you are serious with your thread, and with your profile, then you should be ashamed. What would happen if your parents airline went out of buisness?!? You want 80000+ people on the streets? From what I have read of your recent posts you not only sound like a 13yo child, you sound like an immature 13 yo child. Even though many people on the forums here and everywhere give united critism, none of them WANT them to fail, and if you do you should be ashamed. What would a UA chap 7 mean?
Higher prices for everyone and 80000 people out of jobs.

Think about that next time you want to post. how you would feel if you or "your dad" were working for that airline.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:37 am

Flyingbronco-

Yes, you are the only one who wants UA to fail. While many of us work for competitors that may stand to gain from UA stumbling a bit, NONE of us wants to see UA go out of business entirely.

Why? Because it could just as easily be any of us in the position of the over 80,000 fine men and women who work for that proud carrier. I can guarantee that if, God forbid, the same misfortunes that have befallen UA came calling at other airlines, their employees would at least know their colleagues at other carriers are in their corner.

You sound as if you have a great deal of growing up to do.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 9:43 am

I agree wholeheartedly, I dig into the Ual mentality a lot on here, I don't like how they are doing things, but I do not make it personal and I am concerned for the employees

Jeremy
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:41 am

UAL 1837,

Brian keep repeating to yourself "I think I can, I think I can". Then maybe when you wake up you will find out it was all a bad dream, and all those bad press releases today were not for real.
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:43 am

Yea! UAL will survive! Ya, right.
 
Guest

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:55 am

Hey CAL Pilot, all I'm doing is saying that from what I see, I think United can pull through. None of us has the power to forsee the future, we do not know what will happen. I'm just sick of people taking a stupid pessimistic attitude.

I would attempt to call a truce on this whole matter...but people here are too immature to do so.

BTW, I know you & the rest of CAL wants Denver back...we'll see about that.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:16 am

flyingbronco has the respect rating he deserves. Cheers to Johan for the rating system its begining to work.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:34 am

I feel for the employees, (All except the Mechanics) but, I do want them to go under also. I hope that the CEO and all the union leaders burn in hell and have to carry the burden of driving a once great airline nose first into the ground. Kinda like Jacob Marley had to carry the chains for eternity in Scrooge.
 
Canarsie VOR
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 5:58 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:02 pm

If United is losing that much per day, I wonder how much American is losing as I'm sure they are not that far behind in terms of cash losses.
 
aa777flyer
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:45 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:40 pm

AA is currently burning cash at the rate of 5-7 million per day.
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:00 pm

United 3Q cash burn rate was around $10 mil while AMR was noted around $5.3 mil per day. AMR's 4Q numbers will be effected by the sale of Executive to a San Juan businessman and the ability is now in their hands to transfer more flying to Eagle & Connection through reverse code-sharing. As others have stated, AMR has the benefit of a profitable Eagle operation to subsidize mainline - much like Delta with Comair & ASA. The terms Delta the Comair Connection will never be more real. Welcome to the new dawn of commercial aviation. United employees - my best through this rough time.

If I may, I do want to throw something out there for everyone to think about. UAL has close to 80,000 employees active and on furlough. If UAL Chapter 7's, those workers will be displaced for the medium term - until the industry recovers (majority of workers, except pilots will be qualified to find jobs in other industries...such as call centers and retail (CSRs), mechanical shops such as plants or trade schools, etc. So here it is...

Do we let United fail for the benefit of other airline workers? How many more employees will be laid off at other airlines if United is allowed to reorganize? How many employees at other airlines will be saved if United is allowed to fail? Do we concentrate the layoffs (job losses) at one airline or does everyone share in the pain?

Not meant to attack any airline, just questions to think about.
 
tzMSP
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2002 9:23 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:24 pm

EA CO AS is too right in the statement that it could be any of us in UA's shoes. While there is some obvious mismanagement at UA that has lead to Chapter 11, it's never good to see a carrier fail at the expense of 80,000 jobs here in the US, and others worldwide who supply, cater, and otherwise assist United.

TZ was approved for their ATSB loan of $168M, but the next 7 months are more than critical for our success. We are burning cash at $400K/day, and our CFO has made it clear that we must bring this number down to $0 by July 2003.

It's a nervous time for all domestic carriers, as UA's Chapter 11 filing will no doubt lead to speculation about AA and its future.

Hopefully, if anything, the reduction of available seat miles in the marketplace brought upon by a UA reduction in service will benefit all carriers and finally allow airfares to rise, which at this point is necessary for both the discounters and majors to see profits again.

Though my respect rating is less than FlyingBronco's, so who knows if anyone reads me.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

tzMSP
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:27 pm

UAL 1837,

Ok, a truce. But that is NOT what you said. You said the cash burn was not what Tilton told the Judge in BK. So you have knowledge that UAL is pulling something over on the court, and the public?

My point young man is you can read and believe whatever you want, but no amount of sugar is going to make this taste good. You or whoever you know that works at UAL better realize that,or their going to be in for a big shock.
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:33 pm

As far as CO making a move on DEN; I doubt that we have enough financial power to afford any major expansions.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:08 pm

FlyingBronco...

I have allot of sympathy for your opinion and I hold to variant of it myself. But you ought to be more tactfull and factual in presenting your case.

FAA fines happen for all airlines all the time. For all sorts of reasons. Blamming an airline for this is like saying you must be a dangerous driver because...gasp!....you've been pulled over before. FAA fines on airlines are like traffic fines. Their number and size, in comparison to what others get, are whats important. Not their existance. And United gets no more than other airlines, on average. Especially considering how large United is.

 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: UAL Losing $22 Million A Day

Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:14 pm

FlyingBronco,

Just wanted to add that I have made many posts that are cynical about United and have even said that liquidation may be the best option.

But I have not (as of yet) been personally attacked for this because I have tried to keep the audience in mind when posting. I have also tried not to go beyond my knowledge. Do the same and people on this forum will give you intelligent responses you may actually learn from. Even if they think you are full of *>! and vice versa.