SAA201
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu May 10, 2001 2:37 am

SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:03 am

Hi all,

A local newspaper, Pretoria News, reports that new FAA legislation regarding fuel reserves on B747-400's is forcing SAA to route its non-stop Atlanta to South Africa flights via Ilha do Sal in the Cape Verde Islands, effective this week. This adds another 90 minutes to the journey. The New York to Jo'burg flights don't appear to be affected at this stage.

Are there other airlines who have been similarly affected by this legislation? (Perhaps Qantas etc. out of LAX?)

If this ruling remains in force for a while, I wonder if SAA might consider placing its new A340-600's, when they are delivered, onto the Atlanta route instead of to Hong Kong or Frankfurt. I have heard that the A340-600 is capable of operating full payload from Cape Town TO Atlanta non-stop (can anyone confirm this?), thus eliminating the need to stop at Sal in both directions. Also heard that the A340-600 is able to fly out of Johannesburg TO New York with a decent enough payload to make it a viable option.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24518
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:34 am

This is just wishful thinking, but I am hoping this means SAA leaves ATL and goes back to FLL or MIA. Highly doubtful with the strong Delta partnership, though, so it will not happen. SAA would love to make the stop FLL instead of SID, but since 9.11, the FAA has not allowed them too!
a.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:38 am

How is this news? South Africa to Atlanta has always been a 1stop... whether it was via Cape Verdes or Ft. Lauderdale
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
transswede
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:40 am

ConcordeBoy, it was non-stop one of the ways.
 
jtamu97
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:33 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:41 am

That is so stupid..I was on the ATL-CPT non-stop this summer and it was a cakewalk compared to the stop in Sal on the way back..Oh well what can you do though with the FAA..AndI bet the flight attendants and pilots would love to stay over in FLL rather than ATL.

Later,
Jay
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
jtamu97
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:33 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:42 am

It was always Non stop from Atlanta but not from South Africa.
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
CMK10
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:56 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:43 am

I took SA201 and 202 a couple years ago and on the way from JFK it was a non-stop and on the way back from JHB it was a one-stop. I didn't mind, I was able to take Isla De Sal as my eleventh country.
DC-10's Forever
"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
 
qantas777
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 7:52 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:43 am

wait wait, are you saying from ATL-South Africa there is a stop now?
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 6:50 am

I have heard that the A340-600 is capable of operating full payload from Cape Town TO Atlanta non-stop


According to Airbus' website, the A346 has an 8631mi range at 380pax. ATL-CPT is 8129mi. Since SAA's 744s dont carry that much, if they were to install the same pax configurations in the A346 as in the 744, then they probably could operate the roundtrip nonstop. Though for them, it may make more financial sense to add more seats, and continue the westbound stop.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:43 am

Don't believe the hype on Airbus' website that the A346 can carry anywhere near 380 passengers. Speculation is rampant that the "real" capacity is somewhere around 320-330.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
transswede
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:30 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 7:59 am

Of course it could carry 380 passengers or more - it depends on the cabin layout chosen.

A regular 3-class cabin will have much less, though.
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:01 am

Also, according to the range performance charts at

http://www.airbus.com/product/a340_a600_performance.asp

The range at MTOW is right under 6000 nautical miles. Range at full pax+baggage is 7500 nautical miles. JNB-ATL is 7333 nautical miles according to Great Circle Mapper. They will only be able to take a little bit more cargo at full pax load, MTOW will be impossible with A346. Either that or less cargo, more passengers, but not both.

They could probably fly the A345 at almost MTOW from JNB-ATL

http://www.airbus.com/product/a340_a500_performance.asp

But it would be close.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:13 am

Jtamu97 - I agree, being safe and all is so stupid!  Yeah sure
 
nonrevman
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 6:33 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:21 am

According to the electronic schedule, the flights are still nonstop to either JNB or CPT from ATL. However, there was always a stop in the westbound direction.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:24 am

Regarding FLL and so on, the SAA website has a lot of data and their future plans.

http://www.flysaa.com/about_saa/fleet_information/fleet_renewal.html

Not just planes but routes too. Its a PDF. You'll like it.

I wonder how much Cargo they're hauling on the 744 presently. If its not much, maybe full pax+bags would be fine for them. They could probably do a two class config that works well for them.

I'm amazed that JFK is 400nm closer than ATL. Great Circles never cease to amaze me.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 8:35 am

"Don't believe the hype on Airbus' website that the A346 can carry anywhere near 380 passengers. Speculation is rampant that the "real" capacity is somewhere around 320-330."

I rarely believe much of anything Airbus spews... and sadly, Boeing has been inching toward that distinction lately (with all the Sonic Cruiser and Bat-wing B.S.) as well  Sad

Speaking of, is Airbus taking into account the weight of fuel on their graph of the A346's range? If not, then that contraption probably cannot carry the tonnage that they're advertising either. I see no specific mention of fuel being calculated into the graph at all.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jtamu97
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:33 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:00 am

Flyf15..All I am saying is thatSAA has flown this route for years...So why now is that they have to make a stop from ATL....Safety should never be jeopardized, however the FAA should have done something along time ago...I remember when United flew Non stop from JFK to South Africa and at one time was labeled the longest nonstop flight but no FAA restrictions then. Anyways, also once you go through the new security harrassment at Sal at 2 am you will see why trying to avoid Sal is on my list.

Later,
Jay
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
SAA201
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu May 10, 2001 2:37 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:20 pm

Here is the story from available at: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20021209055456894C156980

Island stop makes SAA's Atlanta hauls longer

December 09 2002 at 05:54AM


All South African Airways flights from Atlanta in the United States are to take about 90 minutes longer because the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has issued a directive that the carrier's planes must stop at Ilha do Sal, SAA officials announced on Sunday.

The FAA had said that SAA planes would not be allowed to refuel in Atlanta until manufacturers completed investigations into fuel pump reliability on all Boeing 747s and 737-800s, SAA's chief executive, Andre Viljoen, said in a statement.

This meant that long-haul flights from Atlanta would have to refuel on the Cape Verde island, off West Africa.

The change means that SA210, which leaves Atlanta at 10.30am each day, will stop in Ilha do Sal at 9.45pm for 90 minutes and arrive in Cape Town at 9.30am instead of 8am and in Johannesburg at 12.30pm instead of 11am.

SA212 is to leave Atlanta at 10.30am and arrive in Ilha do Sal at 9.45pm, Johannesburg at 9.45am and Cape Town at 12.55pm (all times are local).

Normal schedules are expected to resume by mid-January.

"As usual, SAA will take all precautions to make sure that the safety of its customers will not be compromised," Viljoen said. - Sapa


This article was originally published on page 5 of The Cape Times on 09 December 2002
 
 
jtamu97
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:33 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:14 am

Thanks SAA.. Now that makes total sense to stop in Sal now since they cannot refuel in Atlanta. I was under the impression the FAA changed the ruling on reserves and was making them stop in Sal even after fueling in ATL. It seems though that SAA could maybe leave a little earlier from ATL so we could still arrive in South Africa around the same times..Sure was nice to be one of the first Aircraft in Capetown for the day
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:22 am

"The FAA had said that SAA planes would not be allowed to refuel in Atlanta until manufacturers completed investigations into fuel pump reliability on all Boeing 747s and 737-800s..."

Can someone explain this to me, please?
It sounds stupid and unfair to me. Why the heck are they not allowed to refuel at ATL? Other airlines are, right? DL would go bankrupt in 2 days if they weren´t allowed to refuel their A/Cs at ATL. Or does it mean no 747 and 738 are allowed to refuel at ATL at the moment?
Thanx in advance...

Stratofish
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: SAA Forced To Route Atlanta Flights Via Sal

Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:29 am

I'd imagine it'd still suck for DL not to refuel their 738s in ATL.

N

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