AIR MALTA
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BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:28 pm

BA has changed it's Airbus order from 12 A318 to 10 A321 and 3 A319...
The complete story can be found here:
www.britishairways.com/press
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
Scorpio
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Fri Dec 13, 2002 9:52 pm

Correction: BA has changed its order for 12 A318 and 3 A319 to 10 A321.
 
godbless
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:04 pm

This move does not seem strange to me at all since BA had reduced the number of A318's on order already before and the A321 makes more sense im my eyes.
But will these A321's be operated by BA? They had two planes ordered but they never flew for them but rather in a BA livery for another airline (GB?)

Max
 
richardw
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:15 pm

Will they use the A321 for long fat routes at the weekend such as LON-TFS?
 
richardw
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:27 pm

Airbus can allocate A318s and 9s to easyJet now.
 
Ikarus
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:28 pm

Richardw: Easyjet have no 318s on order...

So, if BA has no A318s on order anymore, who has? To be honest, before BA ordered them I thought the entire plane was a poor idea, but then I figured maybe there was some conomic sense to it after all. Now I'm back to doubting whether another shrink is a good idea...

Regards

Ikarus
 
doug_or
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:47 am

does Frontier or NWA?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
717fan
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 12:55 am

Frontier, America West, Air France, Egypt Air....have 318 on order.
To loose BA is sad for the A-318...
 
madhatter
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 1:13 am

Surely this shows that BA are planning on getting rid of the last few 757s. I thought that they had planned on keeping about 10 for their higher density routes but seeing that 10 A321s have just been ordered then surely this shows that the 757s are on their way out to make way for a more integrated Airbus short haul fleet save for the 734s?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:48 am

717fan,

Actually, last month, EgyptAir also converted their order for 5 A318s to A320s. If the BA news is confirmed, that means that only 84 A318 orders remain, from a high at one point of nearly 150.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
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solnabo
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 5:57 am

"only 84"??
Give the babybus a chanse...........The cabin is much bigger than 737N
plus much more env.friendly with the Cfm-engine!! Nuf said.
 Big grin
Michael Sthlm/SE
If UAL was on the top, I´ll bet they would order A LOT of 318´s, cuz
they dont want 737´s.
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
sllevin
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 6:23 am

Solnabo:

I would be very surprised if UA orders the A318 under most conditions; it is the analog of the 737-600, and, not surprisingly, is meeting with similar 'success.' It's going to be a niche plane in a very small niche.

I would expect a United to continue to order A319's as their smallest aircraft.

Steve
 
backfire
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 6:47 am

Just my opinion, but I think an important point is being overlooked here. It's another nail in the PW6000's coffin.

BA had been supporting the PW6000 programme...then it cut its order for A318s in half...and now it's shafted P&W again by getting shot of the rest.

How many PW6000 customers does that leave? Three?
 
mrlineguy
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:36 am

We need to remember the purpose of the A318, that being medium-long haul thin routes, such as transcontinental flights. The A318 is NOT designed for short quick flights as the 717 is. The 737-600 operates the same type of routes as the A318. Both the 737-600 and A318 are too heavy for short flights with quick turns (similar to DC9 and 717...)

Regards
MrLineGuy
More right rudder...
 
ContinentalFan
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:30 am

MrLineGuy,

Just look at how many 736s have sold (not a lot). It seems a 73G costs about the same to operate as a 736. I think the same applies to the 318 vs. the 319. Both planes face pressure from bigger variants from above and Jungle Jets and Flying Skidoos from below.

Mike.
 
sllevin
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:53 am

COFan:

Exactly!

The A318 and 737-600 both have significantly higher costs per seat mile than the A319/737-700.

While it's true that the net cost is lower if your route fills a 318 and no more, airlines are looking more and more to abandon the thinner lines to the regionals and force connections on those passengers. There just aren't that many effective, 2500nm 100 passenger lines out there  Smile

Steve
 
BA
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 9:02 am

The PW6000 is delayed until at least 2006. Apparently there are some serious issues with the engine. Supposidly they need to re-design several major components of the engine.

Godbless,

British Mediterranean has a fleet of A321s, all of which are under the British Airways livery.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
LMP737
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 9:29 am

Solnabo:

The A318 with the CFM engine is more environmentally friendly than the 737NG? Doesn't the 737NG also use the CFM-56?

I tend to doubt that UAL would order the A318. It's to heavy for short routes number one and number two United Express can fly the same routes with RJ's much more cheaply.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
gigneil
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sat Dec 14, 2002 10:06 am

Actually its arguable that the standard 737-NG CFM engine is more environmentally friendly than the standard A320 CFM engine.

The CFM56-7 for the 737 comes standard with a dual annular combustor, while its only an option on the CFM56-5B (an option which most European customers order, and most US customers do not).

N
 
Hamlet69
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sun Dec 15, 2002 1:02 pm

Solnabo,

"Give the babybus a chanse (sp.)"

I'm sorry, but 3 years after launch, the A318 has lost nearly 50% of its orders. I went back and checked (and was later confirmed by the Orders forum) that the A318 at one point had 161 orders. It now stands at 84. If P&W can eventually get the PW6000 to perform as was originally promised, there is a minute chance that this aircraft could approach that 161 mark in the long run. If not, I can't see this aircraft ever selling more than 100 frames. Like the 737-600, it is simply too heavy (in fact, its slightly heavier than the Boeing) to match the economics of their respective, larger siblings.

"much more env.friendly with the Cfm-engine!! Nuf said."

Please read Gigneil's post, or better yet, the CFM website before making something up off the top of your head. Okay?

Nuf said. . .

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
A320FO
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Sun Dec 15, 2002 7:12 pm

Environmental issues on the CFM56:

It might well be true that the standard version on the 737 offers double annular combustors (DAC), as this feature wasn't available yet on the A320s, due to their earlier development. But almost all presently delivered A320s feature the DAC on the CFM equipped versions. Only few airlines still order the "old" engine versions, mainly due to fleet and maintenance commonality.
But actually the first airplane to offer the DAC technology was the A320.

Concerning the efficiency, the A320 wins over the 737, as the -5B (and -5A) versions have a larger fan with 68.1 in diameter versus the -7 on the 737 with only 61 inches diameter. Both the -5B and -7 share the high pressure core, with larger diameter fan achieving the same thrust rating with a lower fuel burn, thus increasing efficieny.

This is one of the compromises (or limitations) in the 737s design, as using the -5B version would have required even greater changes in wing and landing gear design. The A320 family was originally designed with even larger diameter fans in mind ("super fans"), thus leaving room for growth on future versions.
 
dutchjet
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:46 am

With the recent actions by EgyptAir and BA, the future of the A318 is looking less promising.....it seems that Airbus is facing the same problems that Boeing has with its smallest airliners, the 736 and 717. I think a lot has to do with regional jets, including the new longer range models and the newer 70 seat versions being introduced. Do large airlines really want or need a 100 seat aircraft in their mainline fleets - either for thin routes (A318/B736 markets) or short haul/high frequency routes (B717)?

I find it interesting that both Boeing and Airbus has seemed to have misjudged this market.

I noticed that America West is on the list of airlines with orders outstanding, are they in the financial position to acquire new aircraft at the moment? And, what routes, they only have a handful of 732s left in service (if they are still in service) and are adding regional jet service aggressively. Seems odd.
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:06 am

The qualm with the A318 is that it is a short, heavy little aircraft, that will make turn-arounds more difficult. The A318 will run into the same problem that the 736 and the 764 has run into. It will be a niche-only aircraft, meaning that it will have it's runs that will make it highly-profitable, and anything else, it will drag.

In reply to DutchJet's Post:
America West is the second-strongest airline, financially, in the US right now. The only airline to beat them out is WN (Southwest). America West uses their 732's on short, shuttle-type flights between KPHX and KLAX, and I presume that the A318 will fill that route for them. On the subject of America West, I have been speaking with a few of their employees, and America West is currently looking towards buying A321's, to 1) Accomodate it's 757-capacity routes, and 2) To eventually replace it's fleet of ailing 757's. HP's 757's have been running into a lot of maintenenance problems lately. This is due to the fatc that they do a lot of desert, hot operations, and need constant TLC. But toher than that, HP is more than pleased with their 757's. Just a great aircraft! America West is the only airline in the US to achieve major status after the deregulation, and that being said, has had #1 on-time performance 5 months so far in 2002. Surprisingly, UA clinched last months #1 on-time performance (guess it's due to response of trying to step things up a bit).

Bryan
Chat Operator Delta767
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
CX747
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:22 am

Will the A321 be able to do the same hot & high operations that the 757s have been doing for years?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:26 am

CX,
This is what puzzles me. A 757 can take plenty of abuse, as in HP instance. HP (America West) operates some of the older 757's in existance (ex-Republic, and ex-Eastern birds). I think the 757 has done well for HP. I'm sure the A321 would be able to handle it, but would it be able to do it as efficiently as the 757? Would they be able to take the constant 40 minute flights back and forth between PHX and LAS? I guess it's something to be seen. I think the A321 would be a prime choice for HP's EWR-PHX route though. Fit that route very nicely.

Bryan
Chat Operator Delta767
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
dutchjet
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:56 am

Just another thought concerning America West and using the A321 to replace the B752s.....I had heard that the A321 would have some capacity limitations on PHX/LAS to East Coast routes on very hot days (which are frequent) at the 2 desert hubs, and thus, HP has stayed with the B752s and not placed an order for the A321. The initial A321-100 would certainly have had some problems, but is the same true for the newer, heavier A321-200?

Good point, Bryan, about some of the HP 752s being ex-Republic.....those planes were just about to be delivered with NW merged with Republic, and NW sold the RR powered 757s to America West when they were brand new (I dont think those planes ever were in service for NW.)
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:10 am

Dutch,
Nope, they never made it into NWA colors. Good point concerning the weight restrictions. The 757-200 is a rocket. Those RR RB.211-535-E4's provide a nominal amount of thrust (The B752 has the second-highest thrust:weight ratio of any commercial aircraft, following the B772 of course). This is another reason why HP needs the high-performance aspect of the 757. I just think that short-range desert ops are not the most hospitable conditions for an A321. A321's were designed to be medium-range, medium-haul aircraft. Not aircraft that would operate out of 117*F weather day after day, constant 40 minute segments....the list goes on.

Bryan
Chat Operator Delta767
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Guest

RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:10 am

This change by BA ordering more A319s & A321s instead of the PW6000 powered A318 will not really hurt P&W because BA ordered these aircraft with the IAE V2500 which P&W along with RR are partners in IAE.
 
CX747
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:56 am

It will defintaley be interesting to see what HP does. In my opinion, this is where you throw "crew commonality" out the window and operate the aircraft that it BEST suited for the routes. With the way the 757 line is looking right now, I would be willing to bet that HP could pick up replacement 757s at an extremely attractive price. Another option would be to pick up the ex-National 757s that are on vacation in the desert. National's 757s are all relatively new.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
GDB
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:30 am

Since the BA A318 order, BA has shaken up regional services, where the A318's were to go, RJ's like Avros are doing the work, plus 737's being shifted around the regions.
With traffic improving, BA need a 'rush hour' Airbus, for when more capacity is needed over the A319/A320's. The A321 is the logical choice, the 1998 Airbus order always included A321 options.
I would not see the A321 selection as an attempt to completely replace the 757's, some of the newer E4 engined, ETOPS capable 757's are remaining in the fleet for the time being.
The older 535C engined ones are almost all gone, if any are left at all.
 
gigneil
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RE: BA Orders A321 Instead Of A318!

Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:41 am

I think the A321 would be just fine for repeated, short range hops, even on hot days.

The place the 757 clearly wins over, really, every other airplane is high capacity, longer range routes from hot'n'high airports. You need all that crazy power to get tons of people, food, and fuel off the desert.

But the 321 will be perfectly fine for 40ish minute hops. Doesn't need much fuel, so even with a full load it'll do nicely. The 321 beats the 739 pretty handily at this actually, since the 321 has much higher available thrust engines.

I wish HP would do something about their 757 interiors however. The inside of their 'buses are very pleasant, but the 757 gives me a little claustrophobia.

re: CFM engines and the DAC. According to the A320 census, no new Airbusen in the US are getting the DAC, not even Frontier's relatively recent order or US' relatively recent order. They've both ordered the CFM56-5Bx/P engine. Northwest uses the CFM56-5A, and both UA and HP use IAE engines as well as USA 3000. A lot of the newer European orders are for the CFM56-5Bx/2P. I believe the major difference between the /P and the /2P is the DAC. I could be wrong.


N

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