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STT757
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Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Sun Dec 15, 2002 11:25 pm

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AA717driver
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:12 am

The only airline and airline employees that Bethune is required to worry about are CAL and its people. He's doing a great job.TC
FL450, M.85
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:32 am

Gordon Bethune has done much for COA. CO has had a stormy past, in and out of bankruptcy 3 times. Since 1993, CO has grown by leaps and bounds, and continues to do very well. Kudos to Bethune.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
northwest_guy
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:47 am

Gordon Bethune has done an incredible job at Continental, but he doesn't need to tell other airlines what they're doing wrong or how they should operate. He's got enough on his hands with Continental, I don't think he should be worrying about other airlines.
 
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STT757
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:07 am

CO has been in bankruptcy twice, not three times.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
sccutler
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:15 am

CO's had two, not three, bankruptcies.

Gordon Bethune has done an incredible job at Continental, but he doesn't need to tell other airlines what they're doing wrong or how they should operate. He's got enough on his hands with Continental, I don't think he should be worrying about other airlines.

I beg to differ; if the issue is whether the other airlines will receive a massive infusion of taxpayer-guaranteed funds with which to compete with his company, then Bethune has not only the right, but the obligation, to speak out. Worrying about other airlines is his job.

Weak management and poor planning put UAL where it is; and a component part of that puzzle has been the precipitous run-up in labor costs which accompanies weak management and poor negotiation practices. The effect of these increased costs cannot help but be felt across the industry, especially when they exist at a carrier as large as United.

If the capacity United is flying could be effectively replaced by a more efficient operator, then it should be; and any jobs which would be lost thereby, well, they were (while they existed) "found money" for the employees.

If United's fundamental structure was doomed to fail- and the ATSB (and many analysts) believed that it was- loaning money with federal government loan guarantees would have been the height of folly, of throwing good money after bad.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:19 am

Typo. Sorry for the confusion.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
artsyman
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:52 am

I think Gordon is getting some unfair press here, I keep reading how he lobbied hard against United getting the ATSB loan, but they fail to mention that Carty and Mullen were lobbying just as hard, and were just as happy with the outcome.

Jeremy
 
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:54 am

He's definately getting the most attention, but he's also the one being most vocal. Cartey and Mullen (and Eddington too) have all lobbied behind the scenes, but for the most part, Bethune is the one that keeps giving quotes to the press, so he's the one that everyone is going to talk about.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
speedport
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:02 pm

Gordon Bethune is a loud mouth, ego tripping, arrogant SOB, who should be careful what he wishes for.

I hope his words come back and bite him on the ass, hard!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:15 pm

You cannot deny his success at CO.

As a spotter, I love his Boeing fleet with the rare 739, 753, 762, 764 etc!

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:18 pm

Gordon Bethune is a loud mouth, ego tripping, arrogant SOB, who should be careful what he wishes for.

I hope his words come back and bite him on the ass, hard!


Sounds like a spit of jealousy to me!

Did you work for Eastern Airlines or something in a past life?  Big grin
 
globaldude
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:55 pm

Gordon is just saying what most are only thinking. The hand writing is on the wall, he is reading it aloud.

Fact is, nothing is possibly happening to UA now, that didn't happen to Eastern, Braniff, Pan Am, TWA or Continental. UA took advantage of other carriers in trouble in the past, that is how they aquired their jewels of Heathrow, Narita, grew Denver to a fortress, along with other things. I am sure that other airlines are closely eyeing the goings on, this is about business, afterall. UA would be doing the same if the tables were turned.

Gordon can be a loud mouth, but he just has the nerve to say what everyone else in the industry is looking at. I feel for the 85k employess of UA, but many of their careers and seniorities grew while others in the industry floundered. It may be time to pay the piper. I guess we will see in the coming months.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:08 pm

Yeah, Gordon is cool with me.

I am glad he spoke up. Why should everyone else's tax dollars go to bail out United? Which Gordon himself as a taxpayer would wind up doing, paying for his competition's mistakes. Let United fall, I agree with him.

If United had management like Gordon, they wouldn't be going through these problems now.
 
Guest

RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:30 pm

In order to write-off seven billion dollars of dept.........ol' Gordy just cancelled all of the outstanding common stock back in the 90's. Screwed the individual investor (myself included) and laid a real hose job on SAS. 'eff him.
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:46 pm

I beg to differ at Bethune's success at Continental. I guess there aren't many of you who know how to read a spread sheet or a 10Q... but that's ok. If you think flying 9 types of a plane is success, then so be it. Too bad continental has almost NO assets...

by the way, which airline was the FIRST to ask for some sort of government assistance when 9/11 happened?

take a wild guess

oh come on  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

it's not too hard!
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Fleet Service
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:57 pm

any jobs which would be lost thereby, well, they were (while they existed) "found money" for the employees.

I've read a lot of asinine posts on A.net over the years, but that takes the cake.

Can we apply that to anyone else that loses their job as well? "Well,all the years you worked here, hey that was found money buddy!"

Should you lose your job will you go home and tell your wife not to worry, after all you were living on "Found Money" right?

Found money is just that.A career, a job you've had for years is not "Found money".

Are the other airline CEO's relieved UAL didn't get the ATSB loan? Absolutely.
Will They be on CNBC and tossing out colorful quotes? Hardly.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:02 pm

better pray that Continental doesn't go down the shitter.... if they go bankrupt again, they have no assets for the secured creditors!

-n
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artsyman
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:24 pm

Too bad continental has almost NO assets...

No airline in America has any assets worth speaking of, their planes arent worth much as no one is buying. Continental has 1 billion in unencumbered assets, thats it, United had 24 billion, where did it get them ?, assets are only worth what people are willing to pay for them, and at this time, that isnt much

Continentals biggest assets are their employees, almost all of them are so proud to work for Continental and remember the days of whispering C...n..t..l when asked what airline we worked for.

Work hard, fly right

Jeremy

 
CLEfan
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:42 pm

DirkSavage said:
In order to write-off seven billion dollars of dept.........ol' Gordy just cancelled all of the outstanding common stock back in the 90's. Screwed the individual investor (myself included) and laid a real hose job on SAS. 'eff him.

Dont blame Gordon, that wasn't him. He came after the bankruptcy filing. He comments in his book that when he arrived the stock was 3 bucks, and during his time it went up to 60.

If Im wrong, please correct me.
 
LAXFlyer
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RE: Speedport

Mon Dec 16, 2002 4:46 pm

Whats the matter honey, that time of the month?

"Gordon Bethune is a loud mouth, ego tripping, arrogant SOB, who should be careful what he wishes for.I hope his words come back and bite him on the ass, hard!"

I'll bet your just the bell of the ball on your bowling team toots. Since you have this hatred for Gordon and CO, perhaps you should stick to transportation that best suits your personality...GO GRAYHOUND!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Mon Dec 16, 2002 10:54 pm

In order to write-off seven billion dollars of dept.........ol' Gordy just cancelled all of the outstanding common stock back in the 90's. Screwed the individual investor (myself included) and laid a real hose job on SAS. 'eff him.

Yes, and saved an airline and about 45,000 jobs. I guess it sucks to be you, but in the end, the employees were more important at that time than you were. I'm quite happy with Gordon and what he's helped to accomplish at CO.

by the way, which airline was the FIRST to ask for some sort of government assistance when 9/11 happened?

SegmentKing, let's get this right: Gordon was the first to say that the Government should reimburse the airlines for losses incurred because of a GOVERMENT-MANDATED shutdown between 9/11 and 9/15. The government agreed. Each airline was reimbursed for losses accrued for THOSE DAYS ONLY. Do you have a problem with that, or would you rather have seen the ENTIRE INDUSTRY file for Chapter 11?

Gordon was the first to step up and have the balls to say what needed to be said. Left to some of you armchair, monday-morning quarterbacks, the whole industry would have gone out of business.

 
Guest

RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:46 am

As proven by the banks in Japan, sometimes it is best to let businesses fail. Rather then to perpetuate an inefficiant and costly business model.

I do believe at one time there were 45,000 workers in buggy whip manufacturing that were also forced to adapt. Hell, I've been laid off twice and furloughed once. I was just forced to change and find a new job. Instead of standing there with your hand out, why not try some self-empowerment?

BTW, CO was in Chapter 11 for quite some time before the stock was written off and then more (i.e. "new') stock was offered at 16 a share. It immediately went down to 8 and then blasted to 60 plus.

Alpha...........duh, let's think here.....an "airline employee" in Cleveland.............geez, I wonder who you work for? If big Gordo found a way to let me keep my job by screwing others..........well, I'd probably being doing a taste-test on his colon and singing his praises like you are.

Dirk"ex-COAM"Savage

 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:58 am

Listening to what Bethune has to say about UA is like asking Saddam Hussien about US Middle East Policy. You knw what your going to get and its slanted to serve him better.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:00 am

Agreed, Alpha1!

Far too many talking heads like to blather on about how the airlines were "bailed out" by the government immediately after 9/11, but no one bothers to take note of the fact that it was a government-ordered shutdown that nearly sunk all the airlines to begin with! It was only fair for the government to make them whole on what they'd lost.

Put another way (for anyone who still doesn't quite "get it"), let's say that the government told you that you couldn't go to work for several days. Wouldn't you be a bit ticked off and wanting to get reimbursed for your lost income? This is exactly the same thing. The government, for several days, robbed the airlines of their ability to conduct business. That being said, those airlines were entitled to be made whole on their lost business.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Guest

RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:10 am

I'm not really understanding this. If an airline is not allowed to fly thier aircraft for four days................they immediately go into a tail spin and require (and are entitled to?) BILLIONS in bail out money?

Oh, I guess that is why we will soon see FedEx, UPS, Southwest, JetBlue, MidWest Ex, etc. standing in the welfare line (after all they could not operate for the same amount of days). Or, is it maaayyybbbeee because they have better business models?

 
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:20 am

Dirk-

I guess what you're missing is that airlines are VERY high-cost businesses to run, and run on profit margins that are, in some cases, less than your local supermarket (anywhere from 1-3%).

With operating margins like that, a full day without any business whatsoever can spell disaster. Even the media darlings Southwest and jetBlue managed to lose a chunk of money over that period. The difference is that their costs (and in jetBlue's case, overall operations) are much lower than the majors, so they would not have been as severely impacted by the shutdown.

And let's not lose sight of the fact that UPS and FedEx still had their core business available to them, which involved GROUND DELIVERY. The air segment of their business is only part of the whole picture, whereas the air segment is all the commercial carriers have.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
artsyman
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:29 am

Oh, I guess that is why we will soon see FedEx, UPS, Southwest, JetBlue, MidWest Ex, etc. standing in the welfare line (after all they could not operate for the same amount of days).

Southwest and Jetblue also got money for the shutdown, I would asume the others did also, but I cannot confirm on the others

Jeremy
 
Guest

RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:39 am

True about UPS and FedEx. And true, that airlines are a very "equipment entensive" business. Not many other businesses require billions of dollars in equipment to start-up.

But, it would seem that airlines that enjoyed years of regulation and protection from the CAB could have (and should have) built a better mousetrap since '78. I do firmly believe that in a market-driven economy that the best businesses are the ones that should be rewarded (i.e. more revenue) and the rotten ones should be allowed to fail thus freeing up more opportunities and (eventually) more better choices and service for the customer.

If my supermarket is selling me rotten fruit and I there is no other supermarket around for me to buy my fruit, I do not want my government giving them money to keep selling me the rotten fruit. I'd rather the cash be offered to someone else who wants to open up a "new and improved" supermarket with them nice juicy Georgia peaches for sale.
 
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STT757
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:58 am

Before Tilton UAL tried in vein to lure first Bethune and then Greg Brennen to the CEO job at UAL, both declined.

UAL had to settle for someone outside of the airline industry to rebuild the airline, although it might have it's positives that Tilton is not an Airline industry re-tread it hurts that he has almost no experience with these type of labor groups and such a high cost/ low yield industry.

Bethune began his career as an airline mechanic, he was a member of the mechanic's union. He was an aircraft mechanic in the Navy which he joined at 17!.. He worked his way up from a high school drop out to an executive at Piedmont, Vice President in charge of the 737 and 757 programs at Boeing and is a certified 757/ 767 pilot. He flies many of the delivery flights himself from Seattle to Houston.

Comparing him to Hussein is probably the stupidest comment someone can make, the man has more experience from the labor union side, to the pilot's side, to the airline management's side, to the actually development of aircraft themselves than anyone.

He knows what he's doing, you cannot argue the track record.

UAL might have more assets, but CO is worth more to investors because of it's leadership. Something UAL has been lacking for many years, all those assets don't mean anything if you have Unions and Management making terrible decisions throwing money out the window.

CO has done more with less which makes Bethune look great, and UAL's management look terrible. All those assets (Heathrow, Narita, Chicago Ohare, Denver, LAX, SFO) and they haven't been able to turn a profit in how many years?..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:03 am

too bad Gordon's pizza sucks... it's now only personal sized.

-n
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STT757
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:17 am

Actually the Pizza's still good, you just need to pay for additional toppings.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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coronado
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:06 am

Gordon Bethune realized early on that in spite of fortress hubs,etc, the airline business is a Service Business.

In ground transportation something similar happened with CF Consolidated Freightways. Started in the 1920's, By the 1950's they were probably the largest trucking companies in the US and built their own trucks under the Freightliner label (later sold to Daimler Benz). Then came the 80's--A succession of weak management, indifferent customer service, and frankly a bit of a maintenance problem with a high out of service percentage, eroded their busines and cash away. They filed for bankruptcy after 73 years in business and shut down. By the time they terminated operations they had dropped to being the 3rd largest trucking firm.

Airlines are no more exempt from paying attention to service and the customers than any other business.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
klwright69
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:13 am

STT757, EA CO AS, and Alpha 1 are right.

Speedport, if UA tried to get Gordon to come aboard to fix them, he's got to have something going for him, wouldn't ya say?

So Gordon was the first to ask that the industry be made whole after a government mandated shutdown? And the point is ????? Continental, Southwest, and Alaska were the only major airlines showing a profit before 9/11, right?

I read (I think in the Wall Street Journal) that UA and AA's entire market capitalization has the same value as a couple of jets in their fleet. Both capitalizations are only a teeny tiny fraction of Southwest's. Ironically some pound their chest about CO having no assets.

As STT757 said in his own words, it's startling to see how a company like UA can have so much, yet have very little to show for it.....
 
klwright69
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:16 am

I bet you wouldn't see this same level of agitation and hostility toward Gordon if he was running THEIR airline.....

If Gordon had accepted UA's offer and gone to UA, I think some individuals here would be singing a VERY different tune. But he didn't....
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 9:25 am

if we stop listening, will gordon stop talking?


..... nah.......
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Alpha 1
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:11 pm

SegmentKing, if you stop bitching, will we really give a rat's ass?

.....nah....
 
artsyman
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:20 pm

On Fridays Voicemail, Gordon was actually saying nice things about United, and said that he hoped that they made it out of Chapt 11, and he hopes everything is as painless as possible for the employees

Jeremy
 
cloudy
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:35 pm

EVERY business which owns or flies airplanes for commercial purposes got some of the federal grant money. This includes WN, Jetblue and the other low-cost carriers. This is defensible because it was intended as compensation for direct losses incurred in the airspace closure following 9-11. It was given to healthy and ailing carriers alike.

Not so with the federal loan guarantees. These are available only to those who have failed in the market place. Yes, technically anyone can apply but the terms are designed to scare away anyone who isn't in or near bankruptcy.
I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that the troubles of America West (approved for a guarantee), United(rejected), and Usair(conditional approval) were caused by Sept 11. The economy would have gone south sooner or later anyway...the business cycle will always be with us. And when that happened, the airlines would have been in the same situation they are now. 9-11 simply accelerated the innevitable.

In short - the grants and the guarantees are two VERY different things. I would not be surprised to hear Bethune defend the grants and not the guarantees. If that is what he was doing (and I'm not sure, havn't read the exact comments), he was taking a very sensible and consistant position.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:50 pm

I cant wait till bathune gets his ass handed to him, he is a loud mouth jerk.
even his own employees think he is an ass. He is not the dean of ceo's, that is like saying he is the "don". He is only the CEO for CO. They are aren't even close the size of the top three.


ual 777 contrail
 
artsyman
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:51 pm

even his own employees think he is an ass. He is not the dean of ceo's, that is like saying he is the "don". He is only the CEO for CO. They are aren't even close the size of the top three.

I would say that the employees do very much like him, in every company there will be some that do not like their ceo, but at Continental I would say that he has a 90% loved by employees rating. I think what he has done is great, I like almost every call he makes, and more or less everyone else I know feels the same way.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:38 am

I cant wait till bathune gets his ass handed to him, he is a loud mouth jerk.

Actually, he's a smart cookie, who tells the God's-honest truth, even if some don't want to hear it. He's a straight-shooter who makes no bones where he's coming from.

even his own employees think he is an ass.

You'll never satisfy every employee, but, as was said above, 90% of the employees love the guy. Since he got here, pay has gone way up, the operation runs as smooth as any in the industry, and CO is thought of as a very good carrier, instead of the joke it was under Lorenzo.

They are aren't even close the size of the top three.

So? Gordon has said his job isn't to make CO the biggest carrier, just the best-run, and he's done that. And notice the bottom line of "the top three" lately? If your idea of being "good" is being big, then you've missed the boat on this one.
 
klwright69
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RE: Gordon Bethune Speaks On UAL

Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:49 am

Alpha_1, good point again as usual.

Emirates and Singapore are not close to being the world's largest carriers. Applying the logic displayed by UAL777contrail, they must be inadequate and substandard. Yes, UA is huge. But what do they have to show for it these days? To reiterate my previous post to contrail, ironically UAL wanted this "loud mouth jerk" to lead their company (I think more than once actually).

"He is only the CEO for CO."
No, really ????

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