PSU.DTW.SCE
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Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:59 pm

Currently the Eagle County Airport is in negotiations with AA & CO to start seasonal summer service into the airport. During the peak winter season, there are close to 20 flights a day on the weekend. In the summer, there is currently no commerical air service. AA is proposing to serve EGE-DFW daily with a 757 (176 pax) and CO is proposing to serve EGE-IAH with a 737 (124 pax). Only one carrier will get the service as it will be subsidized by the county, and possibly a travel bank.

AA is by far the dominant carrier into Vail.

Eagle County's Winter Schedule:
AA DFW 757 Daily 11/27-4/5
AA DFW 757 Daily 12/15-4/6
AA DFW 757 Sat. 12/21-4/5
AA DFW 757 Sat&Sun 2/1-4/5

AA ORD 757 Daily 12/15-4/5
AA ORD 757 Sat In/Sun Out 12/21-4/6

AA MIA 757 Sat 12/15-4/5

AA EWR 757 Daily 12/15-4/5

AA LGA 757 Sat 12/15-4/5

AA SFO 757 Thu&Sun 12/19-3/30

AA LAX 757 Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat 12/20-3/31

CO IAH 757 Daily 12/12-4/5

CO EWR 757 Sat 12/15-4/6

DL ATL 757 Daily 12/22-4/6

DL CVG 757 Sat 12/22-4/6

NW MSP 757 Daily 12/18-3/31

UA DEN 146 5x Daily 12/13-4/6

From the Vail Daily http://www.vaildaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Site=VD&Date=20021217&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=212170101&Ref=AR
 
blink182
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 7:35 am

AA has always been more faithful to Vail when compared to Continental. American first built the new terminal and then it was expanded to include Northwest, Delta, United, and Continental which were still at the other terminal(in other words, shack), and American serves far more cities and has more flights from EGE.

My question is this, can EGE support a daily flight in the summer? I have no doubts it could do a 1x-3x weekly, but daily? At an extra cost? While it will be more convenient for tourists looking for a summer vacation at one of the numerous winter resorts, it makes me wonder if the extra cost is really worth it when they(the pax) could fly into DEN for less, not to mention the fact that DEN has flights to many more cities.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
dinker225
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 9:14 am

Correction, Vail does have commercial service in the summer. United Express operates 3 daily flights to and from Denver. I flew on them this summer.

Dinker
Two rules in aviation, don't hit anything and don't run out of gas, cause if you run out of gas yer gonna hit something.
 
gigneil
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA &

Wed Dec 18, 2002 9:18 am

Vail and Denver aren't the closest points together, that's for sure. For residents of Summit County and other high-country counties in between Denver and Grand Junction, and Hayden/Steamboat and Aspen, having to drive to DEN during the summer is inconvenient, to say the least.

The high country does have other businesses than tourism.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N
 
BA
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 9:26 am

It sounds like Eagle County will be offering some sort of incentives to American and pay for the losses.

I don't see how the route can be successful without some sort of incentive during the summer.

Vail Resorts Inc. is rich and often always offers incentives to airlines. I am sure they are somehow in this deal.

I think American will be picked.

However, there is another even more potential destination in the Colorado Rockies, Aspen (ASE). However, the largest aircraft allowed into Aspen/Pitkin County Airport (ASE) is a BAe 146-300/Avro RJ100. So that's why American and many other carriers don't fly to Aspen.

As a summer destination, Aspen is still extremely strong. Major business meetings, conventions, events, and Hollywood events are held in Aspen. It's a popular place year-round.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
gigneil
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA &

Wed Dec 18, 2002 9:28 am

Sorry I wasn't more clear, but yes ASE does have summer service to DEN already, and I was just supplying additional information for Blink182.

N
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 10:51 am

damn I can't wait until springtime, looks like EGE is the place to be for 757s.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:39 am

Yeah, I would think AA would have the edge over CO in EGE due to their long-time standing as being the by-far dominant carrier. Of course it will come down to the economics, what will the cost difference be in operating a 737 or 757 into EGE? It probably depends also on how much help each carrier is offereing. Obviously if this was a profitable route, it would already have been served. EGE definetely benefits other communities than just the Vail Valley, heck the airport is at the far western end, a good 30+ drive from Vail. Its a little over an hour from EGE to Aspen. ASE is too small to be an effective airport, as mentioned, only the ARJ/146's can get in there. NW/XJ offers winter service on ASE-MSP and ASE-MEM, along with UA ASE-DEN. Its a good four hour drive from Aspen to DEN.

EGE is a heck of a lot more convenient than DEN. No fuss, no hassle, can walk right out the front door to parking. For a mere $75 difference, it sure would beat DEN.

AA offers summer service on DFW-JAC in the summer with a 757, this seems like a similar service.

Yep, EGE is full of 757's, just go there on a Saturday and you'll see. Nothing beats deplaning a 757 on portable stairs.
 
gigneil
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA &

Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:41 am

BA-

Even though the largest aircraft is an Avro, why do other carriers not fly CRJs, for example, from their hubs?

I was reading an article saying that the ASE airport is challenging for most airliners and that's why the Avro does so well there, more power and all. Is it because a CRJ would be weight restricted to some of these far-off destinations?

If not, I'm not sure why airlines other than UA and NW don't fly other RJs there. Oh, and HP. They have a Mesa Dash 8 service from PHX that started recently.

Not that I'm complaining... I'm sure its high-yield traffic, and UA seems to fly there plenty, and that means more money for UA. I'm all for more money for UA right now.

N
 
blink182
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:25 pm

I've been to EGE numerous times in the winter over the last several years and nothing beats deplaning via stairs on a 757.

I flew to JAC last summer and both flights had 95% or above load factors. But, just how many of those are full fare pax? Most of the pax looked to be tourists or backpackers(such as my self). However, Jackson, WY is a real town and JAC is pretty much the only airport in Wyoming that receives scheduled service to more than 1 or 2 markets. Heck, SLC is served hourly(if not more) from there.

There might be pax who will fly the route, but how many are willing to pay full fare?

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:51 pm

CRJ's, ERJ's, whatever....regional jets cannot effectively serve ASE.
Routes like DFW-ASE are over 700 miles, IAH-ASE 800+ miles, are all rather long flights for an RJ, but certainly within their range under normal circumstances. However, ASE is not an ordinary airport...it sits as 7,800ft with a 7000 ft runway. 3 of the 4 sides of the airfield have terrain obstructions that go in upwards to 10,000-14,000ft.
These RJ's 1) would be subject to heavy payload restrictions due to length of runway, rate of climb, and high altitude operations...the combination of these factors render CRJ & ERJ service as ineffective or below minimum standards.
2) arrival and departure procedures.....these aircraft do not meet the standards for a missed approach procedure, and procedure for loss of an engine on takeoff. The high terrain presents special problems for aircraft and their operating procedures. The ARJ/146 is the only commercial jet aircraft than can effectivly serve ASE due to its excellent short field operations, 4-engines, and power.

Yes thats right that Mesa (HP) operates ASE-PHX on Dash-8's... UA used to serve ASE-LAX on 146's a few years ago.
 
gigneil
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA &

Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:15 pm

UA presently serves ASE-LAX. It may be seasonal however.

Does ASE actively want more service? It may behoove them to permit at least just a few aircraft with larger than 97 ft wingspans. Perhaps a 717.

And in terms of turboprops... I'm sure DL could serve ASE from SLC effectively with a turboprop, if HP can do it from PHX. I just don't know if it'd be sufficient to compete with UA.

I wish the Avro RJ and RJX were still being built. They are great little planes.

N
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:25 pm

DL flies into Grand Junction from SLC with props and CRJ's, it probably doesn't make sense to fly into ASE with props from SLC. Most skier traffic isn't coming from the West, but who knows. I suspect that the Embrair would be subject to payload restrictions out of ASE also. The Dash-8 is the most suitable prop for short field operations and Delta Connection doesn't operate any.

ASE couldn't handle a 717, thats a heck of a lot larger than a 146/ARJ plus who's gonna fly them in there???? AirTran, lol sure. ATL-ASE isn't gonna happen. Somehow I also don't think that Pitkin county would let AirTran fly in there even if they could, it might conflict with their status.

The airfield just isn't suited for commericial jet operations, plain and simple.
 
BA
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:33 pm

Gigneil,

ASE-LAX is only seasonal.

ASE's only year-round route is United Express to DEN. Not sure if ASE wants more service really. I don't think they do.

Anything larger than a Avro RJ would be dangerous. ASE is one of the most dangerous airports in the world with a glide slope of 3 degrees and the approach is right by the mountains.

Lets not forget the Gulfstream accident a couple years ago.

It would be a good move if Delta decides to launch ASE service from SLC with a turboprop.

Avro RJX was about to take-off on it's first test flight until the program was canceled.  Sad

Not exactly sure what happened to the prototype. It did a couple flight tests but not sure what happened after that.

There have been some rumors that British Aerospace may restart the Avro RJX line.

Hopefully that'll happen.

Regarding why airlines don't operate CRJs. The only mountain destination in Colorado that recieves CRJs is Steamboat Springs/Hayden (HDN) and that's because it's got a nice long runway and open plains.

The CRJ is not an STOL aircraft (Short take off or landing) like the Avro RJ and turboprops. It's even worse during high altitude conditions. This is due to the fact that it doesn't have leading edge slats on it's wings which increase lift.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:36 pm

Let me also remind everyone that landing fees in ASE are extremely high. Turboprops may just not generate enough revenue to cover the high costs.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
gigneil
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA &

Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:55 pm

That Avro RJX is in service with Druk Air.

It'd be very exciting to have the RJX started back. That plane has some promising freighter characteristics, and with the forecast boom in worldwide freight services I think that it'd be beneficial.

N
 
BA
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RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA & CO

Wed Dec 18, 2002 2:09 pm

Gigneil,

No, Druk Air along with British European had to cancel there orders when British Aerospace decided to cancel the Avro RJX project.

It didn't even recieve aircraft certification.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
gigneil
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Vail (EGE) Working On Summer Service With AA &

Wed Dec 18, 2002 2:29 pm

Oh, quite right, sorry. I reread the article where I thought it said they delivered it, and it didn't say that.

My bad.

N