UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sat Dec 21, 2002 11:15 pm

An untouchable trust fund that pilots can draw on at retirement. So it isn't enough to get better pay, and work les hours, and get a nice pension. The Company had to set up a trust fund for your retirement that is untouchable even in bankruptcy protection. You people make enough to have a 401k and a financial planner. You all ran this company into the ground in 200 AND you get to keep this! Pilots had better explain this to others at UA, I know I'm pissed others in PHL are too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/19/business/19WORK.html
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:16 am

That trust fund is brilliant. Why didn't your union set up one for you? It is called a "B" fund or "retirement in your own name". It has been around forever and it saved the PanAm guys from getting pennies on the dollar. IMO your union was incompetent not to set this up for you. After all this is the airline industry and airlines fail. Cudos for UAL ALPA for having the forthought to protect that money for its members.

Your sour grapes should be directed at your union reps.
 
bucky707
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:38 am

"That trust fund is brilliant. Why didn't your union set up one for you? It is called a "B" fund or "retirement in your own name". It has been around forever and it saved the PanAm guys from getting pennies on the dollar. IMO your union was incompetent not to set this up for you. After all this is the airline industry and airlines fail. Cudos for UAL ALPA for having the forthought to protect that money for its members.

Your sour grapes should be directed at your union reps"

He's got ya there. If you didn't get as good a deal as the pilots, ask you union, don't get pissed at them for protecting themselves.
 
searpqx
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:46 am

While I agree that every union should have been pushing for something similar (that's what unions are for, protect the members, right?), there's a reality check in here. This was a horrendously expensive item for UA to agree to, and quite honestly there is only one union that had the leverage to get it. Just like there was only one union that could force double digit raises in one go. I'm not criticizing the pilots for getting this, but lets be real here, they are the only ones that could've (and did) get away with it.

Duane
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
MD88Captain
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 4:51 am

Duane. It may have been very expensive for UAL if they set up a B fund all at one time. I do not know the specifics. At DAL the "B" fund was structured to transfer at 5% per year in order to not be especially burdensome to the company. I think UALPHLCS realizes what a smart move this was on the part of UAL ALPA. And truthfully the other UAL unions could've negotiated for it. Since negotiations is a matter of priorities, the other unions could've taken less salary, vacation, or whatever in order to establish such a bankruptcy proof plan for their members. And in addition it could've been set up similarly to the DAL plan in order to make it less expensive to UAL.

The point I am struggling to make is that UAL ALPA had the foresight to see that someday there might be a need for a B fund even when bankruptcy seemed unfathomable at UAL. Now UAL pilots will not be in the horrible circumstance of retiring in a year with nothing to show for 30 years of service. That's a good thing and a lesson to the industry. A portion of every airline employee's retirement should be protected from bankruptcy.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 4:52 am

Searpqx, the problem is that apparently the pilots don't care that it's a horrendoulsly expensive deal for United to deal with. It's basically their own little slush fund for a group of workers who make far more than any other front-line workers at the airline. Maybe it's brilliant, but it's another thing that has led UA to where it is today.
 
Ejazz
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:07 pm

"It's basically their own little slush fund for a group of workers who make far more than any other front-line workers at the airline."

So the pilots should not earn more than any other front-line worker? I can think of dozens of reasons why they did and rightfully so.

Off topic slightly but two weeks before UA went into chapter 11 I took a flight with them in First Class. I was not a begging upgrader or flashed them my air miles but held a normal First Class ticket. The front line staff I came into contact with from the check-in and gate agents to the flight attendants were just plain miserable. No hint of any attempt to provide good or courteous service at a time when you'd think they may be making some sort of effort. I found it quite remarkable since such actions would definately prevent me from travelling with United again whereas they should surely be striving for just the opposite. Maybe some improvements should be sought from the front line staff first before embarking on asking for further cuts from the Pilots.

Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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RE:Ejazz

Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:15 pm

Excuse me, but would you be looking like the Publisher's Clearinghouse million dollar winner when your company is moments away from filing Ch.11? Didn't think so... Talk is cheap.
 
61Heavy
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:46 pm

Why is this is a surprise? The B Fund ("Defined Contribution Fund") is a negotiated part of the contract that has existed for some time now. Similar "B Funds" are offered at Delta and American.

The ALPA contract is available on Skynet for any employee to read.
 
Ejazz
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RE: UAL Bagsmasher

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:27 pm

UAL Bagsmasher

Well, we obviously we think differently. If I knew my company was in trouble the last thing I would do is act in a way that would scare off the very people who pay my wages and keep the company afloat. I, for one, would be making at least a little extra effort on behalf of my company and myself.

I do have great sympathy with those at UAL who did make an effort and who have been let down by those who appeared not to care.

Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:31 pm

Well when you've had shitty management for the past 10 years, and everything you do to try to help your company blows up in your face, it's damned near impossible to keep smiling. We busted our ass and the powers that be kept making stupid decisions. That made us feel like we were working for nothing. It's not easy to erase years of neglect and abuse overnight.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:12 pm

Basically the pilots and their Union feel that the airline is thier to provide them with a very wealthy old age. No matter who has to fill the planes with passengers and luggage, fuel cater to the passengers, work out the paychecks and marketing and all the other things that airlines hire people to do. We are there to serve the pilots. Well, guess what, in bankruptcy the first thing to go, after the maagement contracts to Goodwin and Wolfe and all those other meat heads, is the B fund or what ever you call it.

This is BS. The pilots have helped to bring this airline to its knees they make 5 times what I make for less work and they get more at retirement. Ferris was dead on right to try to break that Union. ALPA sucks. Sucks the lifes blood from the Comapny sucks the morale from the other working people in the airline. I hope UA folds now. I will find another job. Those bastards flying the plane can go try and fly somewhere else.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UAL Bagsmasher
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RE: Ualphlcs

Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:47 pm

I agree. I was really pissed off and moping around for the longest time over the whol Ch. 11 deal. Now, I really don't care if UA folds anymore. I can find work elsewhere as well. If another airline takes UA's place, at least there's a chance that they'll know how to do things the right way.
 
sccutler
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:55 pm

As a counterpoint to the poor service experienced by the big-ticket flyer, above...

Mere days before the 11 filing, I put my niece on UAL at DFW for her flight back home to Australia (in steerage, not First)... and every UAL employee we dealt with was friendly, cheerful and the height of helpful demeanor. The stress they had to be feeling with regard to their job situation was not in any way reflected by their on-the-job attitude. Made me hope for better, for them.

Bitterly ironic, by the way, that UAL operates at DFW out of Terminal B- the Braniff terminal.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:31 pm

I think under law retirement funds of companies who declare bankruptcy are always protected, meaning that slush (I mean retirement) fund the pilots at UAL have cannot be touched by the creditors.

However the court can order UAL not to make anymore payments into the fund.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:57 pm

I have to agree with you ualphlcs, and bagsmasher. We here at UNITED for the most part don't really care now if the company goes under, when the pilots dirty laundry gets aired in front of the whole world you see what these spoiled brats have been doing makes you sick.

I for one don't care if they had a "b" fund, those days of raping this company are over. Our over paid taxi drivers will be at southwest wages soon, and those who are paying a few child supports and making alimony payments are screwed. Tilton will go after the pilots work rules, and Tilton will go after wages, and when he is done the pilots will be bringing home no more than 200k a year. After all is said an done AA,DL and so on will follow suit.

ejazz, why does it say you are a b777 driver? Are you and over paid pilots as well? And if so why on earth would you fly UNITED? And of coarse you would say we are lousy. Your a pilot? You have always been given the red carpet treatment, and when people find out what you do for a living they don't smile or greet you? Imagine that.
ual 777 contrail
 
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coronado
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:10 pm

It strikes me that there is a bit of bitterness from the other employee groups towards the pilots.

I have to assume because I have not read anything to the contrary that US Air pilots had no ''lock box'' untouchable pension fund. Is that correct?

It may explain why I did not hear a lot about destructive rivalries between the various unions. There the anger was focused on the previous 10 years of incompetent management. At UAL you have the preceeding 10 years of incompetent management--and some deep differences regarding these dramatically different deals that were struck in recent years.

Will the UAL succed to emerge out of Chapter 11? I say 50:50 right now.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
gigneil
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:19 pm

As a loyal United customer, I'm appalled by employee attitudes at times.

I continue to patronize United because I love the airline and the service, and despite a Chapter 11 claim I hope they'll pull thru. I also want to do whatever I can to make sure the 80,000 employees still have a job.

But since it seems the employees don't care if it does or doesn't, that kinda reduces my faith.

N
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:16 pm

What I say and do on my own time has nothing to do with what I project to the customer.

I am sick of pilots claiming to be blameless victims in all this. Meanwhile more and more comes out about what they earn and SPECIAL retirement funds they get.

I may hate UA's pilots but the customer will never know.

As for my feeling about the company. I want UA to survive. I have family history wrapped up w/ my own employment. But these prima donnas strut around the airport, drive nice cars live in huge houses in the very best of neighborhoods, and cried poor in 2000, when they screwed me and the customers to get what they wanted, all the while sitting on a huge pile of money. They have the nerve to be puzzled and stunned that thier raping of the company has very near destroyed it.

Well if its destroyed I can get another job. But these guys will have to actually go work for a living instead of playing TopGun. There is no other airline thats will pay through the nose like this. And UA should pay through the nose any more.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Thrawn
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 2:32 am

If United had been a UK or EU airline they would have gone bust now and wouldn't be flying!!!!

Its about time that that Chapter 11 is taken away from the airlines.
All an airline in the US has to do is mismanage itself for 10 years like United, abusing staff and pax then file for Chapter 11.

While UK/EU Airlines struggle across the Atlantic trying to do a proper job of managing an airline and making money. What do United do but cut prices to squeeze the market, while there sitting pretty under the protection of Chapter 11. Where's the fairness in that.

If all the airlines in the world operated in a similar manner half of the big airlines wouldn't be surviving now!! How many times have Continental been under Chapter 11 protection.

As for the pilots. Well IMHO all pilots are "Overpaid Spoiled Brats" its about time more recognition went to the other employees of airlines who work hard in all weathers day and night.

Now that should stir things up a bit!!!!!!

Before you ask I work for a UK Airline, I'm an engineer and I have a lot of pilot friends who some agree that they are overpaid compared to some other roles in there airlines.
 
fspilot747
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 3:12 am

As for the pilots. Well IMHO all pilots are "Overpaid Spoiled Brats" its about time more recognition went to the other employees of airlines who work hard in all weathers day and night.


I wish the pilots were still responding to this thread. Overpaid? For what pilots go through to get to the left or right seat of a 757 is 100 times more than what the average idiot thinks. The starting pilot doesn't make squat, and it takes years and years to get to a decent salary. To say that ALL airline pilots are "overpaid spoiled brats" mirrors ignorance. Pilots are constantly away from home and their families, live in hotels, are responsible for commanding 150 million dollar aircrafts cruising at very nearly the speed of sound at 37000 feet in the air with 300+ passengers--this takes skill by the way...this is a lot more than your average desk job. Many of you it seems think that EVERY pilot makes upwards of 250k a year. That is far from the truth, even though it shouldn't be.

I'm not denying that the other employees work hard...They do. But it doesn't take 10+ years of rigorous training and studying to become a flight attendant, a gate agent, or a baggage handler. The pilots who eventually get good salaries (those who have some seniority), deserve it. The criticizm going on here is really awkward. It's comparible to the accountant that gets pissed because the senior manager makes more than him/her.

FSP
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 3:27 am

Well... I suppose the "all pilots" comment refers to me too.. since I am a pro pilot and hopefully will be going to the airlines next year. To put it in perspective... here are some figures:


Cost of getting my necessary licenses- (Private, Instrument, Multi-engine, Commercial multi and single engine, CFI,CFII,MEI)- 25,000

Cost of a 4 year degree (I graduate in May)- another 20-30,000 at least.

Now I've got all those lisences and you'd think id be making a pile of money working as a corporate pilot and instructor??? wrong-- I am barely pushing 15,000 this year.

Next year when hopefully...very hopefully...I get hired by the regionals..I'll be making possibly only 14,000 a year...maybe..just maybe I'll get about 17.

Take 4-5 years at the regionals at around 25-30 a year after i get off probation. Not exactly a whole lot to live on.

Hopefully get hired with a major airline...Make around 40-60 a year as an F/O. Then make captain around my mid thirties.... Woo hoo! I'm over 100,000! Then finally in my fifties... maybe over 300,000, If i am lucky and with the right airline. Most nowadays are in the 200's.

Only old pilots who have put alot of years into the industry make the good money...and only a few of them actually do.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
calpilot
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:01 am

UALPHLCS,

I can be trained to do your job or any other CS job in about 6weeks.

How long , and how much training would it take for a moron like you to qualify to fly the left seat of a B767? (if even possiable)

About 6 years! Thats the difference, if you want to bitch about our jobs then jump in and join us if we have we have such a sweet deal!

Go to School for 4 years which most of us have. Go through AirForce, Navy , or Marine training, get shot at defending Citizens like you (so you have the right to complain). Or try paying for every flight hour, just to get a interview with some fly by night airplane company in hopes of an Airline job at some future date.

If you have the problem with the UAL ALPA "B fund", then your staff should have gotten a contrat and worked for it too!

Bring it on, you make me sick. However; you have one very important fact very correct. Your pilots as well as myself will have a much harder time finding work in our flying airplanes when this is finished. You on the hand will fit in fine at any "fast food" or local shoping mall.
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:50 am

Nah, I'm just lurking.

It's always interesting how I go to work, feed my family and pay a mortgage, but somehow when I log on a pilot-hater topic, suddenly, I'm a $300K/year knuckledragger with a "slush fund".

A few points for UALPHLCS:

(a)You get what you negotiate. Discuss it with your union and similar employees at other airlines.

(b)Many pilots don't last until mandatory age-60 retirement

(c)Until you step into the cockpit and see what actually takes place during an irregular flight, reserve judgement. It happens way more than you think.

(d)If you don't tell me I'm overpaid to fly a jet, I won't tell you you're overpaid loading the bags.

(e)"Don't blame it on the player, baby, blame it on the game!"  Smile

Sorry, a little of that "Fresno Ghetto" popped out there!  Smile

Doug
 
calpilot
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 5:06 am

Doug,

Thank you for sounding more forgiving than myself. I will give up respect ratings to defend this type of misguided thinking.

By the way very nice "homepage" you have.
 
tsully
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 6:19 am

UALPHLCS, take a flying leap...off a bridge!
Take your pitty party-turned anger session out of public view you fool. Ordinarily, I'm a nice guy to my fellow UA family in here, but you are one hell of a jerk.

If you don't care about the company's future, quit your job now and find work elsewhere. We sure as heck don't need the lousy likes of you to help our restructuring. I wish I could root every one of you sour lemons from our company. THEN, we wouldn't be in our current situation. at least THEN, we'd have an entire staff of great people working to better our airline, not some stupid disgruntled employees who come into a PUBLIC forum to vent.

You sound lost beyond reason, but with what little sanity you have left, understand the concept that this is not the proper place for your venting. You're complaining to the wrong audience in here, and you're hurting the cause of every genuine United employee who is hoping for a bright future.

Bugger off if you can't shut up.
tsully
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
tsully
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 6:34 am

I may hate UA's pilots but the customer will never know.

You really are an idiot, aren't you? Who the freaking heck do you think you're sharing your disgruntlement with in here, UALPHLCS? This isn't Boyles Bar and Grille on UA's AOL pages, you know. If you really want a good beating, go on into Boyles online - many United pilots lounge in there, my father included. They'd be happy to set you and your illfounded opinions straight.

In any case, I'd be happy to see you take your anti-Unitedism to our employee forums.


As for my feeling about the company. I want UA to survive.

Save us the bull, would you? First you're screaming death to United, and now you've suddenly become interested in saving our company?
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
AAR90
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 9:12 am

>I wish the pilots were still responding to this thread.

Responding will not change anybody's attitude, especially those who've vented here/now. They're minds are made up and nothing will change that.

>Overpaid?

Ask the 134 pax & 5 F/A's on my night flight with no airspeed indications (bird remants in all pitot tubes last year) if pilots are overpaid. Ask the 132 pax & 4 F/A's on my night flight with no electricity --batteries shorted out-- (2 years ago) if pilots are overpaid. Ask the 188 pax & 7 F/A's on my flight with stuck throttles (3 years ago) if pilots are overpaid. No need to go on. You either understand what pilots are paid for or you don't. But the next time you think about it ask yourself "what if......"

As for retirement trust funds, it is a very common practice to place at least a portion of a retirement program in a trust fund not accessable to either company management or employee.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 5:29 pm

Thanks guys.

Even though I'm an employee of a different airline, I want United and all of it's employees to succeed and vanquish the beast of bankruptcy.

Why?

Because I owe a lot to United Airlines and its dedicated employees for my own career at Delta.

It was United who flew to my small town during the "Essential Air Service" days and offered service from Visalia to San Francisco.

A United flight crew invited me to the cockpit when I was a 7 year old, introduced me to the captain and showed me around which gave me a thirst to become a pilot.

I'd write United Airlines fan mail when I was a kid and dreamt of becoming a pilot for United Airlines and flying out of SFO or LAX because they'd personally send me information about the airline news when I was a kid.

All of that stuff for a non-frequent UAL flyer left me with a lasting impression of the spirit of United Airlines.

Even though I work for Delta, one of UAL's competitors, there is still a place in my heart for the airline that treated me as a human and reassured me that even a geeky kid from the San Joaquin Valley can reach the cockpit.

United will survive and will succeed and all those that think they won't can kiss my a$$. They just have to get rid of the naysayers like UALPHL and they WILL SUCCEED.

Doug Taylor
 
tsully
Posts: 680
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Dec 25, 2002 8:08 pm

Couldn't have put it better myself, Doug. Thanks for the support, and I fully agree that employees like UALPHLCS need to be identified and fired. We can't hope to recover when we've got our own employees working against us.

Merry Christmas.

tsully
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
TonyBurr
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:30 am

Hey guys

I know UAPHLCS was down on UA on this post. I am not going to get into the "family" laundry. I will say that UAPHLCS and I have disagreed on several things about UA ( I am only a pax, not an owner/employee) but am I 1K. I will say this, over a long period of time UAPHLCS has been TREMENDOUSLY faithful, supportive , loyal and pushing for UA. UAPHLCS sees UA from one side, I from another, and they do not always match. UAPHLCS has also had some great ideas for how to improve UA. If they sounded down on this, believe me it is a first. Let's give some slack!
 
TonyBurr
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Thu Dec 26, 2002 1:13 pm

Tsully just a quick quesstion. Do you work for UA or the son of a UA employee? You use the terms "we" and "our" and "us". It helps to know the lvele of involvement here.

Thanks
 
tsully
Posts: 680
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:53 pm

Sorry for any confusion, TonyBurr. I'm just the son of an employee. I use first person when talking about United only because I strongly identify with "our" company. I've really taken a strong interest in United over the years (my dad works as a pilot). I've always enjoyed going with him and seeing the 'behind the scenes' workings of the airline.

Again, sorry for the confusion. Although I may say "our airline" or "us" when refering to United, you will never hear me talk as if I am the employee...I don't pretend to be something I'm not.

I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
9844
Posts: 194
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:39 pm

Ok kudos to the pilot group. Now, if the other unionized employees wanted that same trust and managment said no. Would you be angered if they struck. Shut down the company for a number of days to get this.

Can some one cut and past the artical this forum is about. I don't have access to the NYtimes.
 
TonyBurr
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Fri Dec 27, 2002 10:25 am

Tsully thanks for the clarification. Nice to see a young person with such dedication.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Fri Dec 27, 2002 2:37 pm

Delta737,

I thought I was the only one on this board who got interested out at VIS. I used to watch the UA 737s out there while growing up in the 70s. Didn't go into the industry, instead found a business career that let me take 30 or 40 flights a year. But Visalia was a great little airport to get an up close and personal view when young.

I know a friend of mine from Visalia also ended up as a pilot for DL, based at DFW. For a small town there was a lot of aviation interest.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
TonyBurr
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 29, 2002 11:24 am

Can some ( an attorney, not just anyone) tell us if the Trust would be subject to the bamkruptcy court?
 
FoxHunter
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:17 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Sun Dec 29, 2002 1:06 pm

This fund is just like a 401k, in individuals names, held in trust. No, it cannot be touched.
 
TonyBurr
Posts: 1060
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:00 pm

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:50 am

Foxhunter, thanks for the explanation. It helps to clarify!
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:46 pm

WHAAA WHAAA

I love all you pilots. "I can do your job in 6 weeks" Your probably right. However UA training for CSR is 3 weeks so you would flunk out. That comment just shows the hieght of pilots arrogance. The difference between God and a pilot is that God dosen't THINK he's a pilot.

You know nothing about me. You know nothing of my education. (working on a MA) I do this job because I like to work w/ people and I love airplanes and I grew up a UA brat. Yes I will get another job if the pilots and the Unions manage to kill this company, and I will be very sad. But I would be racing the pilots to the the "fast food" counter. No I've got other irons in the fire. So go ahead and talk yourself into thinking that I am only fit to flip burgers, you will never know, but oneday you might be flying me in a Citation.

You can list your qualifications till your blue in the face. It still dosen't make you any more than a busdriver. Face it, if looking at your B-fund your Top Gun days are over. Don't try to get them back by telling me all that you've done. Basically flying for an airline is can you fly straight and level? Can you program the autopilot? Can you not sh*t your pants and kill everybody if the worst thing imaginable happens? Should you all get paid and paid well? Yes. Should you all get paid for driving the airline into the ground? No.

UA and other airlines are in the buisness to make money for thier shareholders of which I am one. (Outside of ESOP) UA's pilots seem to think that UA is in buisness to provide them with money. UA needs no other employees but pilots. They forget that with out everyone else they would be sitting on the ramp in an empty tube. No one fueled it filled it w/ paying customers loaded bags, fixed the broken part, or pulled back the jetway, or drive the tug to push back. This is a team and pilots are only one part. They act and demand to be paid like they are teh ONLY part.

As for some kid trying to defend daddy's job. I don't blame you kid. Do some research you will find I've been nothing if not supportive of UA and UAL. I'm a UA brat too. My dad started in 1969. I was flying UA before you where born, cause I'm older than you and I was on a UA flight at 6 weeks. I bleed UA. Which is why I am so passionate about the people who have raped it.

Yes, the pilots have raped UA. They had help. Inept management and the IAM 141M held her down.

PS
I am a free person still living in the free world. I can say anything I want in a free society. If your afraid of UA's "dirty laundry" maybe you should be. I will not be silenced and I can not be fired for voicing my own opinions on my own time. UA doesn't own me 24/7.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ILUV767
Posts: 3035
Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 2:21 pm

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:52 pm

This is one post where I disagree with UALPHLCS.

United pilots are taking a big pay cut. Yes, they arnt loosing all of there raises that they got from 2000, but may I remind you that since Tilton came into office, ALPA has been the only union going along with what he has wanted or needed. They were the first to offer a wage concession of 18.9%. IAM refused, then accepted, just to have 141M vote it down.

There is a lot of ALPA vs. IAM and so on. The only way for United to recover from its situation is to put the past behind them. It is hard to do, but you have to start working together vs against each other. After all, it is for the greater good of everyone at United to help out and save the company. Its time to drop the hatred between the employee groups and start working together.

I L U V 7 6 7

P.S.
Does anyone know if ALPA members will be loosing hours in there bid packages? Also, if the contracts are voided, the scope clause goes thrown out the window and you may see a lot more United Express flights in place of mainline flights. That right there is an ALPA concession aside from a pay cut.
 
TonyBurr
Posts: 1060
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:00 pm

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:55 pm

UAPHLCS - see my post above. One thing I will say about youis that you are and have always been EXTREMELY supportive of UA. I don't know all the other inner workings there but NO ONE can say you have not been anything BUT supprotive of UA!
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:58 pm

UA actually should have MORE people like me. Not tooting my own horn, but I've been a Comapny guy for a very long time. I have a right to my opinions and can shout them from the mountain tops if I want to. I like in America and we are part of the free world. You would NEVER be able to find point me out in PHL by my attitude. I have NEVER been anything but proffesional in dealing w/ my co-workers (including pilots) and especially customers. I am a CSR. As a CSR I am the who the Comapny depends on to represent the passengers POV. If I am angered by Summer 2000 you can bet there are thousands of would be passengers who still are as well. If I get upset when a flight is delayed, its because I have customers to think of. Ramp doesn't think that way, Reservations doesn't care, MM doesn't need to woory about blown connections, F/A's are wondering if they will go illegal. It's the CSR who represents the passengers at the table. UA needs more guys who think that way.

I've been dying for the opportunity to help reform UA from the inside. I feel bad that I may never get that chance.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 2:09 pm

I'm sorry TonyBurr, I did note that, and still forgot to thankyou. I know you and I have not agreed on everything, but who does. I have always respected your opinions, they are always well thought out and reasonable.

Lets not get off topic. This post is getting to be all about me. Read the attached article I LUV767, it an eye opener.

One small thing I want to make clear. I am not a supporter of the tactics of th IAM 141 by any means. For those of you who suggest that I am angered that the IAM got no B-fund for us is ridiculous. I would be furious if any work group had this fund. It is IMO fundementally unfair and suggesting that what I want is for more of us to have one it like saying I want the cancer to spread. I wish this could be eradicated, no Unions should have had especially now.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:24 pm

UALPHLCS--I can explain why pilot groups have negotiated a B-fund that is managed outside the reach of the company. At AA, the company decides what our B-fund shares are worth. It does have a yardstick to measure them vs. company performance and market performance. But basically, AMR decides what retirees will get as they go out the door.

In the 60's and early 70's, TWA's B-fund was so completely mismanaged, many pilots retired with only the contributions that were put into it--it had a 0% return on investment.

In fact, you have only to look at the results of the ESOP as a justification for it. Why, if you didn't have to, would you want anyone other than a professional money manager running your retirement plan? Remember, the riskiest investment a pilot should engage in is a passbook savings account. Big grin

The pilot groups have learned from history, now the rest of the workeforce can do the same. I'm sorry this is happening.TC
FL450, M.85
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:25 pm

>At AA, the company decides what our B-fund shares are worth.

Oops. Looks like someone needs to do some more research. AA's B-fund is a trust fund. AA purchases "shares" at their current market "valuation" in an amount equal to a specified percentage of your salary (per the contract). These shares are placed into your account within the trust fund. AMR has no say in actual fund management (that is done by outside Trustee) or setting fund values (that is a valuation of the fund assets calculated & published monthly).

>It does have a yardstick to measure them vs. company performance and market performance.

The monthly valuation is published as are company stock and all other market performance indicators.

>But basically, AMR decides what retirees will get as they go out the door.

False! AA/AMR couldn't care less what the retiree will receive from the B-fund upon retirement. This is a "defined contribution plan." The company's obligation stops with the purchase of shares --done regularly throughout every year of employment. The company's only other role is that of Fund Fiduciary --the financially responsible party should the fund manager fail to act in an "appropriate" manner. The fund documents provide much guidance on how the fund manager should act and AMR's role is to ensure no impropriaties by the fund manager (especially anything in favor of AMR). If proven, AMR would be financially liable for all fund losses from such behavior.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:52 pm

Everyone should just smile. Don't you think that'll make it all better?

I have no doubt that UALPHLCS and every other UA employee here would like the company to do better. They each have their own ideas about how to go about it. They're all valid.

Its been my argument for years that Unions actually stifle an individual's ability to effect change in an organization. I think we're seeing some of that at play here, with each person that works there having a different view but being lost in a sea of other voices.

That doesn't make me believe in each member of the team any less, really.

Be that as it may. I fly UA twice a week many weeks, although not so much lately. I book every ticket on UA, and I never book anywhere else. I certainly hope that trust is justified.

I think it probably is. Good luck UA.

N
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:41 pm

Everyone tends to blame everyone else when something like this happens. But no one ever blames themselves. Either it's "the management screwed us" or "the union screwed us."

I suppose that's a problem with union dominated corporations, because any business conducted is done with the adversarial point of view. Everyone's always out to screw you, as they say.

So an airline goes down, and everyone's pointing fingers. Someone's gotta take the blame. But if you look at the logic of it all, there is no such thing as an innocent party in all of this, especially when you look at what happened at UA.

Picking up the pieces and moving on is very hard, and the frustrations echoed in this thread is just that. Why reason and argue about all of this? All it's doing is cooking up everyone's nerves.

I symphatize with everyone who's an employee at UA right now, mechanics, ground staff and flight crew alike. Definitely not something anyone would want to wish on anybody...
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:05 pm

AAR90--You're right about the timing. The shares are purchased at the end of each month. They do go into a trust fund. However, AMR determines the share value. There is no market value becuase the shares aren't traded anywhere and can't be sold. AMR dictates what the share value is based on some formula. Could you give me the section and page in the Green Book--I looked at the contract and the supplements and couldn't find the formula by which the shares are valued.

The APA website has an informative link that also does not give the formula. Thanks in advance for the information.TC
FL450, M.85
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: UA Pilot Trust Fund

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:32 am

>However, AMR determines the share value.

Nope. AMR has no control over share value.

>There is no market value becuase the shares aren't traded anywhere and can't be sold.

There is a defined formula to calculate the share value based upon the underlying assets' market value.

>AMR dictates what the share value is based on some formula.

AMR has no control over the share value, the formula or the calculations made. All that is performed by the Trust Manager.

>Could you give me the section and page in the Green Book--I looked at the contract and
>the supplements and couldn't find the formula by which the shares are valued.

It is not in the Green Book (the AA/APA contract). Details of exactly how the Trust Manager is supposed to manage the trust is all contained in the Trust Documents (the legally binding contract which initiated the trust as well as spelling out in detail exactly how the trust will operate).

A-ha! The light just went on! I suspect your confusion is with the names and roles of AMR and ARM Investment Services (AMRIS). AMR is the holding company for a number of airline related companies including American Airlines, Inc., American Eagle, Inc. and AMR Investment Services, Inc. Its name is commonly used in place of AA, AE or any other AMR owned company. AMRIS is the B-fund Trust Manager. Ok, here's the short lesson in organizational structure.

Way back when (1960's) AA signs a contract with APA (representing pilots employed by AA) to include the formation & operation of a retirement trust fund. That fund (B-fund) is to be a defined contribution fund out of reach of the control of either party --i.e. neither company nor union may control this trust fund. The parties agree on a Trustee to control the fund on their behalf (that is what a Trust is... giving up control to someone you trust. AA assumes the role of "Fiduciary." As such, AA is financially responsible for any losses in the trust caused by a failure of the Trustee to properly perform its job. AA pilots are the beneficiaries --those who will receive the benefits of the trust upon their retirement. The Trustee (First Republic Bank last I looked) was the Trustee selected by the Fiduciary (AA) and approved by APA (representative for the beneficiaries). [note: since AA is financially responsible, AA gets to name the Trustee who will manage the trust while APA represents the beneficiaries and therefore gets to accept or reject who AA names as Trustee].

The Trustee's job is to manage the trust in accordance with the Trust Documents --which spells out objectives and procedures AA & APA have agreed upon as to how the trust will operate. Naturally, the Trustee specializes in the legalities of being a Trustee and not in investment decisions. For this role the Trustee hires one or more professional fund managers In our case First Republic Bank has hired AMRIS to manage all of the Trust's financial investments. First Republic provides AMRIS with investment guidance (what it can/can not do) as described in the Trust Documents and AMRIS invests the trust assets (money) in various financial tools. Neither AA, APA nor AMR are permitted to influence First Republic's choice of Trust Manager(s). In fact, none of the parties may contact the Trust Manager directly. Instead, all contact concerning the Trust is required to be to/thru the Trustee only.

That's the basics. The obvious question is why the Trustee would hire AMRIS [a company owned/controlled by AMR]. The answer is three-fold.
A) Simplicity. AMRIS does not make the actual investments. It is a manager of managers. AMRIS decides what sectors of "the market" it wants funds invested in and what percentage of the total funds to invest in each sector. A single company who's expertise is selecting the best money managers in each market segment. IOW, only a single Trust Manager is needed greatly simplifying the Trustee's job as well as Fiduciary and Beneficiary oversight roles.
B) AMRIS charges the B-Fund Trust less than 1/2 the open market rate for its services. It's long-term performance has been consistantly well above the market average and when combined with its very low cost structure it has provided the Trust with exceptional return on investments (usually in top 5%).
C) To preclude the appearance of interferrence in Trust management by AMR (who owns the managing company), the Trust Documents preclude the Trust from investing in the airline industry or airline related companies. IOW, B-fund assets can not be invested in AA, AMR, AE, Boeing, Airbus, etc., etc., etc.

The worst thing that can happen to a retirement fund is for it to be controlled by a union. The second worst thing that can happen is for the retirement fund to be controlled by the company. The B-fund Trust is designed to avoid both of those problems by placing control in the hands of an outside third party. Both company and union have to agree on who the third parties are, but neither can select any third party without the consent and agreement of the other. Even with all these procedural precautions, the B-fund assets are prohibited from being invested in airline or airline related industries (never put all your eggs in one basket). All this legally enforcable in court if necessary.

That's the simple version. If you need more details, contact me directly.

AAR90
ex-APA committe member (multiple)
ex-BOD AICA
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!