yak42
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 6:17 am

Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:46 am

With the low cost airlines around the world favoring the B737/A320 families, I was wondering which type of aircraft would be best suited for a low cost longhaul operation. I think the A300-600R would be a good one, being efficient to run and maintain and not to expensive to aquire.
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:53 am

A low cost longhaul start-up would obviously need an aircraft in the 200-250 seater capacity. Anything revolving around the 767-300/A300 mould. Assuming you would operate an all economy or a 2 class system, the 763 or A300 could accomodate anything between 200 to over 300 seats, ideal for new low cost entrant in the long haul market.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
BDRules
Posts: 1474
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2000 6:31 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:03 am

Personally i would say the A330 i dont know why but it has got to be good on efficiency and performance.

Regards

BDRules
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:43 pm

I also think that the 757 has performed well in this role also

Jeremy
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:13 pm

The A330 is a favorite of European IT operators, and they have to have quite low costs.

Monarch also flies some A300-600Rs, and they have almost 360 seats in them.

The wider arrangement of the A300 makes it perfect for this type of job, and, people tend to forget that the A300-600R is about the same "age" aircraft as the 767-300ER. Many good years left.

N
 
AApilot2b
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:38 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:53 pm

It depends on the length of the haul and the number of passengers you are looking to carry. It is hard to make a good choice without first knowing the particular market, but it must be said, the 757 is an excellent choice. Statistically, the 757-300 would be the best in seat mile cost.

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gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:55 pm

The 753 is a displeasing aircraft due to the single aisle configuration and number of passengers.

It takes _forever_ to deplane everyone compared to a widebody of near-similar seat count.

I would hate to be toward the back of one of them. I understand this as a reason LH/Condor rejected them out of hand.

N
 
artsyman
Posts: 4516
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 3:46 pm

The 753 is a displeasing aircraft due to the single aisle configuration and number of passengers.

This would have no bearing on the cram 'em in and sell 'em cheap attitude of the low cost carrier. They want best per seat mile cost, and not much else. If you want comfort, then pay for it
 
AApilot2b
Posts: 451
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:38 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 3:48 pm

You have a good point, but I really doubt that the deplaning is as big of an issue as you make it. Especially if you were to take a carrier like Ryanair that already deplanes both front and back. Furthermore, studies were made on this very issue and it was found not to be a problem. Personally, I'm not real fond of a narrow body for long haul myself, but we are talking low cost here.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 4:06 pm

Well - the round-up of low-cost longhaul carriers seems to mostly bear out what y'all have been saying. 757 , 320 and NG are all good but it depends on the market, commonality with shorthaul craft, etc. Some low-co long range routes are flown by....(not counting out of production craft)....

IcelandAir - 757.
America West - 757, A32X
ATA - 757, 737NG
Frontier - A32X
JetBlue - A32X
National (when alive) - 757
Southwest (where they do longhaul)- 737NG
Ryanair (where they do longhaul) - 737NG

Virgin Blue -737NG

Some patterns - Though Boeing does better in the low-co market as a whole, the contest gets more even at longer stage lengths. If you don't count the 757. The 757's efficiency and flexibility advantage must be very good or else you wouldn't see it so often in the company of widebodies of similar seating capacity, or slightly smaller narrowbodies (in the case of the -200). Its amazing how airlines will break commonality in order to have this airplane.

About widebodies - the only Lo-co's still using widebodies, that I can remember, are ATA and Japan's SkyMark. ATA's L1011's mostly do charter work. Japan's Skymark uses 767's on shorthaul, mainly.

Are there any lo-cost carriers, anywhere, that use widebodies for longhaul? I sure can't think of any except maybe Virgin. But they don't seem like they are really a low-co to me. They use traditional service classes, many different A/C types, etc. They seem like a smaller version of a traditional full-service carrier. Unless I am missing something.


 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:28 pm

My point to the long deplane time is not limited to passenger comfort, although I'd avoid a 753 personally (after my first flight on one, for the experience.  Big grin )

The very real issue of turn time rears its ugly head on a 753. Taking forever to deplane and enplane is not high on the list of things to do for an LCC. Having two cleaning crews (one per aisle) is also a convenience, unless you're an LCC that only cleans during the down shift.

I stand by my recommendation of the A300-600 and A310-300.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Cheap to acquire, modern avionics, fuel efficient, two aisles.

I've also heard the charter companies are very pleased with their A330s. You can get a _lot_ of uncomfortable seats on an A330.

The 752 is still up there tho, on my list. But you know, Flight International isn't calling me for my list.  Smile

N
 
flyboy_se
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:50 pm

Since when is Icelandair a lowcost airline?
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:02 pm

Another important aspect is to find the right-sized aircraft for the market. Although the 767/A300 might be a good aircraft for a long-haul low cost airline in the long run after a good brand recognition has been build up and there are sufficient bookings, these aircraft types will be real money killers in the buildup phase. Imagine how hard it will be to fill 360 seats on an A300-600R or about 330 seats on a 767-300ER compared to maybe 230 on a B757-200 in long-haul configuration!

There is a great potential to break the airline in the very beginning if you have to fill the difference of 100 (767 compared to 757) or 130 (A300 compared to 757) seats with loss-making fares.

Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23345
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:50 pm

Probably the Boeing 767-200 or Airbus 310-300
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
airblue
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:16 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:08 pm

Just a question:

if you want to start long-haul low cost flights for example from London to US East coast, do you think a B757/200 with 235 seats or an A300/600R with 360 seats could fly it no stop??

 
BDRules
Posts: 1474
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2000 6:31 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:12 pm

Dont Continental do BHX - EWR non-stop? I know its not LON but not much of a difference.

Yeah so i guess it would work.

Regarding an A300-600 it can fly it non stop. It can do Maldives 1 stop which is 12hrs30 so i can do it.

Regards

BDRules
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:23 pm

And another point...

If you're flying low-cost, you might want to use secondary airports. These may not have the right equipment and apron positions to handle widebodies like an A300 or B767.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Best Aircraft For Lowcost,

Tue Dec 31, 2002 10:10 pm

European charter airlines seem to favour A300 and 757 aircraft for the longer distances and 737s for the shorter distances (and smaller airports). A320s are coming into swing now (probably due to the appearance of these on the used aircraft market).

310s and 767s are not often seen outside mainline carriers (or charter daughters belonging to mainline carriers operating the types).

Some charters and lowcosts try to pick up the occasional old DC-10 and start an intercontinental service, usually shortlived.
I wish I were flying

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