BeechStarship
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Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 2:43 pm

In the recent thread on American's soon-to-be-retired F-100s, the general opinion is that the huge number (~114 craft) of American and USAir F-100s won't ever fly again. I find it hard to believe that regional jets as young as five years old will be parked permanently. As I recall, American got some of the last F100s before Fokker folded in 1997, and no F-100s is older than 1987. But alas, a quick glance at the fleet list shows a LOT of F-100s in the state of storage.

There's a problem with F-100s RR Tay 600 engines that require expensive repairs...supposedly $1.5 mil per engine. One would think RR would cover some of this cost if their design was faulty. Perhaps some other engine or another model of the Tay could be retrofitted.

With the renewed demand for regional jets, I predict that some solution to the problems with the F-100 will be found and the jets placed back into service, albeit most likely with different airlines. The BAe-146 had engine problems too...lots of young jets parked in the desert for years...problems solved, jets flying high again. Just like the 146, the F100 is too young to die!

Peronally, I like the F100 and have many pleasant memories flying on it, and I hate to see it disappear. Any opinions on its fate?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 3:47 pm

I think 114 F-100's is just too many for the market to absorb. Hence, many will be scrapped, unfortunately.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
TSV
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:22 pm

Good post BeechStarship. I think it would be a shame too as I like the F100 too however as you point out there are a number of factors working against a lot of them flying again.

I am led to believe that Alliance Airlines here in Australia (formerly Flight West) have already increased their fleet of two (to ?) for increased operations in Queensland and also wet leasing one to SkyWest in Western Australia (for the Argyle Mine contract I believe). However unless they grow really rapidly (which is the opposite to the opportunity growth strategy that the CEO said they would persue in an interview in Australian Aviation magazine) they'll only need a trickle of what is parked up. From memory the CEO said in the interview that there are very good deals to be struck when it comes to F100s (which obviously reflects the current over supply and unsupported scenario as opposed to F70s which are snapped up as soon as they come onto the market and fetch very good prices from all accounts).

Another obvious reason are the competitors in this area of the market ranging from the smaller 737s to the 717 (and the remaining BAe 146s) and now the A318 and the EMB170/190.

With regards to a replacement engine I would imagine that a different engine would require a recertification program which would be expensive. I was wondering why this wasn't proposed for the younger F28s and I assumed that this was the reason.

Unfortunately the future doesn't look great for the F100 but it does look good for the F70 and here in Australia we'll just have to appreciate them while they are still operated by Alliance.

Regards

Rob
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
petertenthije
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:32 pm

Does anyone know if a company has been looking into converting the F100's into cargo planes. They may be a good replacement for old 727's?
Attamottamotta!
 
jwenting
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 10:05 pm

KLM might be interested in some of them I think. They've been scrounging the market for F70s for a while now and purchased some from BMi and Austrian/Tyrolean.
The location of these airframes in the USA might work against them of course (transportation across the Atlantic makes them an expensive option for KLM compared to potential sources in Europe).
I wish I were flying
 
LJ
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 10:09 pm

Does anyone know if a company has been looking into converting the F100's into cargo planes.

One Brazilean airline has done this. However I don't know if the plan is still alive
 
airways
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 10:20 pm

What about replacement parts? Since the manufaturer Fokker is no longer arround, it might be quite hard or expensive to get certain spare parts? Well, they sure can take parts from retired F100s, but these parts are not new...

That's probably also an important factor for a future operator of the second-hand F100s. What's the situation here?

Michael
http://airways.ch
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Tue Dec 31, 2002 10:35 pm

Does anyone here know how many F-70s & F-100s were assembled? Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
petertenthije
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:27 am

48 F70
283 F100

One of the F100 prototypes was converted into the F70 prototype.
Attamottamotta!
 
NWA320
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:53 am

It is sad that they will be scrapped. I think if Fokker was still alive they would have a much better fate.  Crying
 
b727
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:40 am

I know American bought the F-100 as new planes. What about US Airways?
Where these planes obtained as new orders, or did they recieve them though a merger??


Thanks

B727
Glenn
 
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:50 am

US was indeed the launch customer for the F100, as well as for the 737-300 along with Southwest.
 
LJ
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:55 am

I think 114 F-100's is just too many for the market to absorb.

Yyz717, yoou mean 138 (in addition to the ones already on the market prior the TAM, AA and US announcement) as TAM has also put 24 F100s on the market (and the other 24 will follow quickly). However one European airline is thinking about operating the F100 (thus again a few F100s off the market).
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:00 am

From what I heard, KLM, Austrian Airlines and Germania are interested in taking over some Fokker 100s. Rumours are Germania is already training pilots to start operating some Fokker 100 aircraft on low-cost flights ...
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:04 am

Where did the KLM F-100s go to? They had 8 or 10 of them, I think. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
LJ
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:45 am

FlagshipAZ, the KLM F100s first went to Air Littoral, then back to KLM (the partnership between KLM and Air Litoral broke down) and then, after a few years of flying again for mainline KLM, they dumped the F100 with Air UK (at the time a KLM partner). Air UK became a KLM subsidiary and changed its name into KLMuk and KLMuk changed its name recently into KLM Cityhopper UK which currently owns the F100s (waiting to be reregistered into the Dutch register with owner KLM Cityhopper)

Thus is essence KLM still owns and operates the F100 (and apart from a few years at Air littoral never left the KLM Group)
 
jtamu97
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:00 am

I know a little bit of money to an airliine is nothing, but I have always wondered why they do not try to lease these stored aircraft to the public..I know maintenance is one issue as I know I do not know many mechanics that work on Fokkers..However, if they leased each aircraft, Oh let's say for $1,000 per month, that would be quite a bit of money. I would love to have a F-100 to fly around the country in..Anyways, here is to dreaming...And to answer the question, probably mostly scrapped  Sad.
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:27 am

It's really a shame no one can't re-engined the Fokkers with the BR715. If they can re-engined 110 DC-8s with CFM56, some outside company can something similar to the Fokkers. They do have some life left in them. Just a thought. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:39 am

The BR715 would not be feasible for the Mother Fokker. They would have to get some BR710-A1-10 engines in there. They could rate them at 15,500 pounds of thrust.
Puhdiddle
 
trintocan
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:34 am

Sounds like a sad fate for the F100. I wonder, though, why does the F100 appear to have such difficulty in being resold whereas the smaller F70 derivative does not? F70 operators seem loathe to retire those planes and when they do sell them they are taken very quickly. What is it about the F100 that is working against it?

TrintoCan.
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petertenthije
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:48 am

What is it about the F100 that is working against it?


  1. There are more F100's available then there are F70.

  2. The F70 does not really have a true competitor (other than the largest verion of the CRJ), whereas the F100 has competition from the smaller B737s, B717 and A318. This will of course all change when the new regional jets come in, such as the ERJ-170.

  3. The F100 has difficultiy with the engines, the F70 was offered with different engines so perhaps the F100 problems do not count for the F70?

Attamottamotta!
 
VASI
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:35 am

As I know American only bought the Fokker 100 as MDD had a production surpass with their MD-80's at that time, due to the high demand.
Therefore the Fokker 100 was only second choice!?

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think I read an article in Flight International that time!

VASI
 
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken

Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:31 am

Can't they replace the RR Tays with the same RR engines that power the Boeing 717?
 
sllevin
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken

Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:00 am

Ted -- it's certainly possible, and, at one time, that might well have been the path taken. Or even, just hanging rebuilt Tays on them.

The problem gets more complex because of the overcapacity everyone has. There's simply no customers for the F-100's right now, airworthy or not. By the time the market comes back (economy combined with eventual Stage IV), these sadly orphaned aircrat will be pushing on 20 years old.

The truth is, a few F-100's probably will continue to fly around the world, and the parked fleets will largely provide parts and pieces to keep those few flying.

Steve
 
F111
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:27 pm

This is a copy from the topic I just started re Fokker 70's and 100's.

Fokker could be making a come back. This article is from the December issue of Aviation International News.

Rekkof vies for Lufthansa RJ order

Rekkof Aircraft, the Dutch company trying to bring Fokker 70 and F0kker 100 twinjets back into production, has sais the uncertain status of the Fairchild Dornier regional jets and the demise of BAE Systems' Avro RJX program have boosted its prospects. The firm has joined Embraer and Bombardier in the race to win an order for up to 60 regional jets from German regional operator Lufthansa CityLine.

According to Rekkof president Japp Rosen Jacobson, an increasing number of operators, including several extisiting Fokker operators, now view the 79 seat F70 and the 107 seat F100 as low risk alternatives to new-generation regional jets. "They want solutions to their (operating) requirements without teething problems," he told AIN.

Jacobson also claimed that operators have expressed "doubts about the future of the Embraer factories." Asked to elaborate, he suggested that some operators, with whom he has been negotiating, doubt whether the Brazillian airframer can meet the development and production commitments for its new regional jet program (the 170 and 190 models) and whether its bussines plan will prove viable in the long run due to the high level of investment required.

"Customers are also show less interest in other alternative aircraft such as the Boeing 717 and the Airbus A318," Jacobson concluded.

Reffof has been holding talks with prospective F70 and F100 system suppliers. It hopes to resume production by the fourth quarter of 2004, subject to relaunch orders being secured. Anticipated annual output at its prospective factory close to Amsterdam Schiphol Airport would be 45 airframes
 
TSV
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:43 am

Just had a quick look at the Rekkof website and it concentrates on the F70 :

"It is our mission to relaunch the proven successful Fokker 70 JetLiner, with significant cost benefits for operators. We have developed a unique logistic programme to do so and have the technical experience and skills available to start the relaunch of a proven success: the Fokker 70 JetLiner."

Also nothing on an alternative engine :

"The engine type used for the Fokker 70 is the Rolls-Royce Tay 620. It has good fuel efficiency and an excellent retention: <2% in 10,000 cycles.

The noise and emissions are substantially below the current and future regulations. It has low shop visit rate & high reliability (dispatch reliability 99,98%)."

Still it will be interesting to see if they are successful.
"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
 
BeechStarship
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:14 am

Where is this Rekkof website you speak of? Are these folks serious about restarting Fokker production? Seems hard to justify with so many of them sitting around waiting to be sold.

About the Tay 620...wouldn't the newly manufactured engines already have the required fixes in place? This wouldn't be a problem for new F70/100s.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:34 am

Attamottamotta!
 
aussie_
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:34 am

Alliance Airlines love their F100s and are buying more. However, they aren't quite of the size to be able to buy 100-odd!

It's the ideal aircraft for short-medium haul ops. And they are comfortable aircraft too. At the price they are selling for these days, they're a bargain (plenty of spares around too)
 
Fokker Lover
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Fri Jan 03, 2003 11:47 am

I know that 2 of our F100's have been sold to an Australian company, but I don't remember the name. The going rate for an F100 is around $600k. Compare that to an older and smaller F28 going for a little over a million. Fokker (FAS) even proposed a deal in which they would take all 40 of our 100's, remove a section of fuselage, and convert them to F70's for about a million each. We couldn't even afford that though. There is a company in Michigan called ADI. They are spending money out the ying-yang on an F28-4000 right now. They are trying to install center bladder tanks to give it enough range for a Dallas-Michigan charter. (still don't know if it's possible yet.) They are also taking 6 months to put it through a heavy check. The same check that we did in 17 days. For the amount they are spending, they could have bought a fleet of 100's, and thrown them away when they come due for maintenance.

I keep hoping for the day when somebody comes to their senses, and I will again be working on F100's.
10,000 years ago we would have eaten you. Today, we drag you along and allow you to pollute the gene pool.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Will The Stored F-100s Fly Again Or Be Broken Up?

Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:21 pm

Can't they replace the RR Tays with the same RR engines that power the Boeing 717?

As I said before, The BR715 is way too powerful for the Fokker 100. If they replaced the 13-14,000 pound thrust Tays, They would have to use 15,500 BR710 Engines. The BR710 is the smaller, meeker version of the BR715. The BR710 would also work with NW if they decided to re-engine their DC9 fleet.
Puhdiddle

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