panamair
Posts: 3761
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:05 am

Delta has made additional tweaks to the summer transatlantic schedule. Latest changes include:

DL 70 ATL-FCO goes from 763 to 777
DL 28 ATL-CDG (2nd flight) goes from M11/777 to 763

No indication in their schedules that any of the double daily ATL-Europe flights (AMS, MUC. ZRH, MXP) mapped out in the IATA scheduling conferences will be operating.

MD11s will continue on DL 12 ATL-LGW until July 1 and then switch to a 763; and on DL 64 ATL-MAN until July 31 and then switch to a 763. Looks like MAN will be the last European city to see Delta MD11 service.

Here's a summary of the summer 2003 transatlantic flights:

From ATL:
DL 8 LGW 763
DL 10 LGW 763
DL 12 LGW 763 (switches from M11 to 763 on Jul 2)
DL 58 LGW 777
DL 20 FRA 777 (switches from 763 to 777 on Apr 15)
DL 14 FRA 763
DL130 MUC 763
DL116 STR 763
DL 38 AMS 763
DL124 BRU 763
DL 66 ZRH 763
DL128 SNN/DUB 763
DL 70 FCO 777 (switches from M11 to 777 on Apr 15)
DL 74 MXP 763
DL108 MAD 763
DL152 BCN 763 (seasonal nonstop resumes May 1)

From JFK:
DL 16 CDG 763 (switches from 777 to 763 on Apr 14)
DL118 CDG 763 (switches from M11 to 763 on Mar 2)
DL 82 NCE 763
DL148 FCO 763
DL154 VCE 763
DL 84 MXP 763
DL126 MAD 763
DL 94 BCN 763 (seasonal nonstop resumes Apr 15)
DL106 FRA 763
DL 80 AMS 763
DL140 BRU 763
DL132 ATH 763
DL 72 IST 763
DL 30 SVO 763

From CVG:
DL 36 LGW 763 (switches from M11 to 763 on Apr 15)
DL 48 FRA 777 (switches from 763 to 777 on Apr 15)
DL 44 CDG 777
DL 32 FCO 763 (resumes May 1)

From BOS:
DL114 FCO 763 (new seasonal nonstop starts May 1)
 
Guest

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:33 am

... that any of the double daily ATL-Europe flights (AMS, MUC, ZRH, MXP) mapped out in the IATA scheduling conferences will be operating

Can you explain this further please? Where there plans to start flying from ATL to AMS twice a day? Thanks!
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:34 am

Thanks for the information about Delta by the international transatlantic flight. I've do like with triple B777 aircraft for myself.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:50 am

At least LGW gets 1 772.Surprised at so many 763s coming in too though.
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:00 am

Dutchdeltadude,

Delta has requested slots for a twice daily AMS service starting in April. They currently applied for (and received) the following slots at AMS :

Arrival in AMS from
ATL DL038 daily 763 (195 seats) 08:30 CET
ATL DL040 daily 763 (195 seats) 11:35 CET
JFK DL080 daily 763 (195 seats) 08:00 CET

Departure AMS to
ATL DL039 daily 763 (195 seats) 10:20 CET
ATL DL041 daily 763 (195 seats) 13:40 CET
JFK DL081 daily 763 (195 seats) 11:15 CET

DL040/41 would be the new service. However this is all subject to change.
 
usairways85
Posts: 3548
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:01 am

Interesting to see that JFK will not see any 777's from accross the pond
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am

The odd thing about this schedule is that by mid-summer only 5 777's will be in use. DL has 8 777's, so where are the other three. I guess you could figure one to be in maintenance/spare, but that still leaves two unaccounted for 777's. I hope DL isn't going to waste two 777's flying MCO-ATL all day long.

I have a feeling that most of the new flights that DL requested at the IATA conference will never come to fruition.
 
717fan
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 10:51 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:08 am

Will ZRH get a second ATL service next summer or not?
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:28 am

I'm not surprised their switching/increasing services to FCO/MXP...rumour has it Delta has been very happy with their SkyTeam partner Alitalia.

Glad to see some increased services to Italy.

-G
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
papatango
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:29 am

There are 6 777's in the sked CVG FRA & CDG ATL FCO - LGW- FRA-CDG.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:52 am

That makes more sense, Papatango. I just realized that Panamair left out ATL-CDG from his list.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:54 am

When will the MAN-ATL service return to MD-11 ops, as the service is currently back onto the 777 again.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 4:41 am

The other 777s will undoubtedly fly to Tokyo, after the end of the M11s.

Its surprising the amount of capacity reduction they're doing on some routes. The M11 is roughly the same size as the 777, some routes are going from a 777 and an M11 to two 767s.

N
 
kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 4:58 am

A little disappointing to see that DUB/SNN lose the 777; actually I was surprised we got it in the first place! Anyway, part of the problem with the Irish operation was the cost of having to fly to SNN as well. Hopefully that will be rectified by next year and we might get JFK back, possibly even BOS as well, as there's obviously a strong Irish market there.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:02 am

Now that election year is out of the way the SNN stop should be dropped immediately.
Will CDG be double daily from ATL?
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:30 am

Delta will need 2 or 3 777's to operate the ATL-NRT service, once the MD11 is withdrawn from service. With that and the Atlantic-positioned 777's, all of the Delta 777 fleet is accounted for. It's a real shame Delta didn't acquire more of the triple 777's. Not likely to do so anytime soon either.

ContinentalEWR
 
N839MH
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:32 am

Im sure in a couple of months, United's creditors will be glad to sell some of UA's 777's. Maybe Delta could pick up a good number of them for a steal.
Solodude!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:38 am

Heh oh you're sure of that, are you?  Yeah sure

Nobody's in any condition to pick up anything, really.

If DL needed the extra capacity, they wouldn't be retiring the M11s.

Sad, true.

N
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:07 am

Can 772s be re-engined efficiently?
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 7:49 pm

Heh would you think DL would re-engine their RR ones, or the incoming PW ones?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

DL is a big mixer. They fly PW and GE 767s all over the place.

N
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:51 pm

BA's 772s fleet is mixed with GE+RR engines.The RR ones have the greater range.
 
Guest

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 12:34 am

LJ, Thanks for the information. I hope the second daily ATL-AMS-ATL flight will become reality soon, DL038 and DL039 are almost always completely booked and since my travel is mostly last minute, that very inconvenient  Smile
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:31 am

I doubt Delta is interested in any of the 777s that UAL is likely to have on the market.

I understand that it would be less expensive for Delta to order brand new 777-232ERs than to acquire UAL aircraft and refurbish them to Delta standards. There's also the engine issue. The PW is the least preferred of the three available powerplants on the B777.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
donder10
Posts: 6944
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:59 am

Leo has said that there will be no more large capital projects until 2005.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:12 am

The PW is the least preferred?

Actually, the GE is the least preferred, and I think by a long shot. The PW and RR each have much bigger shares.

N
 
airplanetire
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:42 am

This is just my guess, as I am no business expert or even know a whole lot about it at all, but all of these MD-11/777 switches to 763s could be a good thing for Delta. Maybe it will help them to get a higher load factor (bigger plane to smaller plane, thus higher load factor) on longhaul international services, thus making the airline more profitable. Anyway, that might be totally wrong, but it seems logical to me. I have been following some of these flights for quite some time because my mom, my brother, and I are scheduled to fly from ATL to FCO and then back from MXP to ATL on DL in July. We booked the first day we could because we needed to book frequent flyer seats. The booking was on August 21. ATL-FCO started as an MD-11. It then changed to a 763. It has now changed to a 777 (I love flying 777s!). MXP-ATL was a 763 when we booked. It then changed to a 777. It then switched back to a 763. The times for that flight have changed numerous times though. Right now, I'm really happy with the planes on those routes. 777s are a lot of fun to fly on and in my opinion, Delta's are very comfortable in economy. I am also happy with the 763. I have been fortunate enough to get to go to Europe three times, but in all of those six transatlantic flights, I have never once been on the most common transatlantic plane, the 767. Two of those flights were on MD-11s (ATL-BRU, BRU-ATL), two were on A330-200s (ATL-ZRH, ZRH-ATL) and two were on 777s (ATL-LGW, CDG-ATL).
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:46 am

Just conjecture.... but if UAL does go belly-up, there will be about 60 767-300ER's available really cheap.... That would be an easy way for Delta to increase capacity.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 12:23 pm

United does not operate 60 767-300ER's. They have around 29 or 30. Maybe more, but definitely not 60.

ContinentalEWR
 
papatango
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:55 pm

With only 6 of Delta's 777's flying transatlantic next summer-- where are the other 2?
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:03 am

Probably in maintenance or flying to Florida.

Jeremy
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:17 am

TOKYO.

Heh read above posts people. It'll take 2 to fly the Tokyo route.

Forgive me, I'm apparently a little bitchy today.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:05 am

The PW is the least preferred?

Actually, the GE is the least preferred, and I think by a long shot. The PW and RR each have much bigger
shares.


You're thinking in the A-market only.

In the extended range market, the PW is indeed the least prefered as the PW4090 is the only option available (UA and KE supposedly planned to certify and operate the PW4098 on their 772ERs, but were dissatisfied by its fuel consumption and cost of switching).... so PW-powered 772ERs are almost always significantly more payload/range restricted than their GE and RR powered cousins. Unit weight is another drawback of PW as well for 777ERs.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:14 am

I wasn't talking about necessarily which engine is best... clearly, the all new GE-90 is the technology leader.

I was talking market share. More people still have PW and RR than GE even including the B market boys.

N
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:24 am

Gigneil,

NO! DL is keeping the MD-11 to Tokyo until 2004.

Jeremy
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:40 am

Hmm, really?

That wouldn't make much sense really. To ground all but two of the aircraft? Kinda kills the point of grounding them to begin with.

N
 
strickerje
Posts: 706
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:35 pm

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:31 am

Well, grounding all but two of a type of aircraft isn't like introducing only two of a type of aircraft in that no new parts have to be introduced and no new training must be administered. From what I've heard, Delta prefers the 777 over the MD-11 and wishes to ground all of the MD-11's, but can't have all of them grounded by summer 2003 since they won't have the 777's reconfigured to fly to Asia by then. Besides, since travel has decreased anyway, it makes sense to phase out an unwanted aircraft type now since no new aircraft will have to be purchased to replace it. By getting rid of the MD-11's now, they are forced to move airplanes around on their schedule to replace them and downgrade some flights to smaller aircraft, resulting in flights with higher load factors.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6876
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:41 am

The current NRT MD-11s have aux fuel tanks...these will be around until the 777s can take over. The Atlantic MD-11s will go first.

Jeff
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:30 pm

So are DL going double daily to MAN with 763 as has been rumoured, or sticking to the 777 on the route as present?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
airplanetire
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:18 pm

Do different DL MD-11s fly to Europe than fly to NRT? I ask because both of the Delta MD-11s that I have flown (N804DE and N813DE) can be seen in pictures here on A.net in both Europe and Japan. I flew both of those on transatlantic flights (ATL-BRU, BRU-ATL), so I know that they go to Europe. Some of the NRT pictures are pretty recent though. Here are some pictures:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Je89 W.
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Philippe Bleus



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arthur yu
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jerome Zbinden


The ATL-NRT-ATL runs are daily, so they couldn't have their aircraft that they fly to NRT in Europe or inflight from Europe when they would need to go to NRT. How many are there that fly to NRT? There would have to be at least two because the flight from NRT does not arrive until several hours after the flight has departed for NRT. I appologize if I sounded like I was trying to start a fight. I just don't know a whole lot about how Delta utilizes their MD-11s, so I just want to learn more.

Regards,
Airplanetire
 
papatango
Posts: 376
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 1999 10:32 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Fri Jan 03, 2003 11:10 pm

What is the word on the proposed CVG_MXP flight?
 
mikeymike
Posts: 402
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Sat Jan 04, 2003 1:02 am

There are two different configured DL MD-11's The M11 and the M1P. The M1P's were created to fly the 13-14 hour ATL-NRT directs. They have a 258 pax config instead of the 268 M11's. Ships 801-807 are M1P's and ships 808 and on are M11's. The M1P's have an Aux fuel tank in them as well. Why you see both M11's and M1P's in NRT and asia is because DL could fly M11's out of LAX and Portland back when those bases had trans-pac flights. The stage lengths in hours were under 12 hours so the M11's were capable of flying those routes. The M1P's mainly flew ATL-NRT and JFK-NRT. DL needs 3 M1P's to fly each of those routes because of the stage lengths so that is why 3 MD-11's will be kept around...801, 802, and 804.

Mike
 
panamair
Posts: 3761
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta Summer 2003 Transatlantic Tweaks

Sat Jan 04, 2003 1:39 am

The number of 777s flying transatlantic for summer 03 are the same as last sunmer -6 even though they have a total of 8 a/c. This past summer, the 777s operated on the following:
DL 22 ATL-CDG
DL 28 ATL-CDG
DL 58 ATL-LGW
DL 16 JFK-CDG
DL 44 CVG-CDG
DL128 ATL-SNN/DUB.
#7 was used for MCO turns and #8 is a spare.

Summer '03:
DL 22 ATL-CDG
DL 58 ATL-LGW
DL 20 ATL-FRA
DL 70 ATL-FCO
DL 44 CVG-CDG
DL 48 CVG-FRA
#7 will be for some MCO turns and spare; #8 spare. Right now, there is one 777 scheduled for ATL-MCO. As mentioned, they will also need to take the 777s out of service one at a time to put in the crew rest bunks for NRT.

ATL-NRT will become a 777 in early 2004, using the existing fleet of 8 777s. This means that 3 777s will be needed for that (2 to operate; 1 spare). What will probably happen is that this is timed well for the slow 2003-4 winter season where 2-3 of the existing European 777 routes will revert to the 763 to accomodate NRT. 777 deliveries should resume again in 2004 in time for them to maintain the current level of 777 flying in summer of 2004.

Don't look for DL to acquire any UA 777s in the interim since they delayed delivery of their own until 2004. The goal here is to operate profitably - with less capacity, they don't have to discount as much to fill the planes. With the switch from the M11 to the 763, the BizElite capacity remains about the same but Y goes down pretty significantly.

Most of the proposed double daily ATL flights will likely not see the light of day; they simply will not have enough 763ERs configured with BizElite to make that kind of schedule. Even after pulling most of the ERs from the current domestic schedule (they will still maintain some ERs domestically especially on the JFK-Calif. transcons since they do offer a U.S. BizElite service there), they will not have enough ERs to ply the double dailies. DL is in a cash conservation mode and will not likely spend more now to convert domestic 763ERs to the BizElite configuration.