bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Sat Jan 04, 2003 12:42 pm

The other post about there being no fatal crashes in 2002 got me thinking and reignited a fear of mine.

First, let me jsut say that there being no fatals in 2002 is understnadable, as I think that what happened on 9/11/01 was enough to put off fatal crashes for a while.

But my real worry is about La Guardia Airport. This airport has ad regular incidents between the years 1989 and 1998, from engine fires skidding planes, and to fatal crashes.

It's been years, that I know, that they've had any incidents. It's weird to me. I see it like an earthquake....when you don't get one for a while, you know a big one is coming.

Has LGA cleaned up their act? Any changes in airport operation the past few years?

Maybe the poor economy, forcing airlines to keep only the most experienced pilots, is to thakn for its lack of incidents.

Keep in mind, 7,000 foot runways, with water at the end of all of them except one, and the kind of traffic LGA has, is an appetite for disaster. I hope nothing happens.

Any comments or opinions?
Phil Derner Jr.
 
cicadajet
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:54 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Sat Jan 04, 2003 1:02 pm

Here's a couple of images from the database... none of which include the USAir incidents...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Masella
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Polakos




There were reports of some professionlism issues in the tower many years ago...but nothing connected to the major accidents/incidents which occured over the years.
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Sat Jan 04, 2003 3:43 pm

i know what your talking about bigphil. but you could be the pessimist and think that something may happen, or be the optimist and be glad that nothing has happened, and hopefully it will stay that way
Go big or go home
 
janne
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 4:37 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Wed Jan 15, 2003 7:55 am

Let's forget about the crashes, shall we, Big Phil.
I can understand your PAIN.
To cut all the crap, I liked your postings maybe half a year ago,
the photos of your toy planes when you where a kid and how
your shots did'nt make it to a.net.
I mean, THE PAIN!!!
I like your style. Keep it up. Let's get some more of that python style
of yours. Keep it up, Phil (no, I'm not talking about, everybody know's what).
/jl

 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:56 am

I live right by LGA, so this is a major concern for me. It could be that airliners are using more modern aircraft into LGA these days which don't require as much runway for take-offs of landings. LGA has a new ATC system in place which would prevent incursions, etc. These are just my theories. Maybe someone at jfktower.com would know.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:36 am

I dont really think that the ATC crew at LGA is the problem there, it is pilots and crew making poor decisions. Certainly, the airport is bursting at the seams, but it used to be a lot worse in terms of crowding during peak periods. The bottom line is that if a flight crew doesnt feel safe at some point during approach/takeoff (before decision speed)/taxi it is their job to notify ATC and take corrective measures. The only time I worry about being at LGA is during bad weather, but I could say the same thing about any crowded airport (not that I really worry about it though).
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jcxp15
Posts: 989
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:05 pm

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:54 am

I think LGA definately learned after those crashes, and has put in extra safety measure to prevent skid-offs etc.. but they can still occur. I also think a lot of those accidents had to do with
a) either airport conditions which the pilot cannot control
or
b) more likely, bad pilot decision

I do know for sure that LGA has had several "near-incidents" to which the result could have been tragic (i.e. midair collisions etc..) I believe they have tightened up on how close they space aircraft, and the way they use the perpendicular runways.

Phil, I know what you mean though... It seems that LGA is due sometime for a big accident.. Hopefully that won't happen, but many people believe LGA is a living time bomb, set to go off at any moment...
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:11 pm

To my way of thinking, LGA hasn't had that many accidents. The US F-28 (1992) and more recently, the DL flight that bellied in are accidents (and the DL amazingly fatality-free). Some others (while technically accidents due to their exceeding the damage cost threshold), were essentially incidents turned into accidents due to the unforgiving nature of LGA's cramped space.

I mean, US 5050 hydroplaning off the end at any other airport would have been in the mud, and no big deal as far as a hull-loss, but LGA's pier and runway lights supports changed that. Ditto for the CO MD-80 that slid off via going up the blast wall. Another aircraft that would have been in the mud anywhere else.

So it's not so much that LGA has "accidents", it just tends to magnify complace incidents into accidents.

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:15 pm

Lets not jinx LGA now.

Right after it was released that 2002 had been low in the amount of crashes worldwide and none in the USA, three crashes happen in about 24 hours with one in the USA.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8024
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Wed Jan 15, 2003 2:27 pm

I think they want more experienced pilots flying in and out of LGA due to the tricky ATC situation and also the relatively short runways at that airport. It's probably the respect for the dangers at LGA that has kept the incident rate there down recently.
 
jcxp15
Posts: 989
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:05 pm

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:53 am

RayChuang:

I dunno about that because many DASH-8 and CRJ/ERJ turboprop planes are flown into LGA, and usually those captains and F/O's have the least amount of experience at that airline.
It's just a matter of landing safely. Landing at LGA is like landing anywhere else, but as a flight officer, you have to be more aware of your "surroundings" and weather conditions.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:54 pm

I personally fear LGA and yet, still fly out of it, when I can't get to Newark. I was in college in 1992 when a US Airways Fokker F28 (or was it an F100) I don't remember) skidded off the snowy runway and plunged into the icy water killing around 28 of the 50 odd people on board. That flight was operating LGA to CLE and had my spring break been a week earlier than scheduled, a lot of my class mates and I would have been on that flight.

ContinentalEWR
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:23 pm

>>> I was in college in 1992 when a US Airways Fokker F28 (or was it an F100) I don't remember) skidded off the snowy runway and plunged into the icy water killing around 28 of the 50 odd people on board.

That was US405, and it actually tookoff, stalled, and then crashed. Turns out that it had had been too long since it had been deiced, and it should have gone back for another deicing. Afterwards, FAA conducted an industry-wide conference on deicing and winter ops (I was there), and we have not seen another similar type of accident, not counting the customary runway excursions, which are far less deadly...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:05 pm

I mean, US 5050 hydroplaning off the end at any other airport would have been in the mud, and no big deal as far as a hull-loss

OPNLguy, No big deal? Two people died, who gives cares about the plane?

Phil Derner Jr.
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:07 pm

Janne, I dont get online as much as I used to, but once I'm back up and runnning, youll see a lot more posts like that of my ones from months before.

Phil Derner Jr.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6176
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:57 am

Ok, another strange occurance.....

Someone posted the topic about no crashes in 2002.....within a few days there were 3 accidents including the one in CLT.

Now someone posts this topic....and within a few days, sure enough there is a ground incident in LGA with the NW A319 hitting the jetway and another 757.

A rather strange coincidence?
 
jcxp15
Posts: 989
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:05 pm

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:47 am

Yea.. it's funny how people were saying "Don't jinx LGA now" and then this happened. Of course this wasn't a "real" crash as there was only minor damage and no one was killed, but still, kinda weird..
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13623
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:57 am

Here are some photos of today's incident involving a NW A-319 at LGA:

http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=3320&sessionID={753A1667-3A40-40B6-8B56-E34F6B1B9031}
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Beefmoney
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 2:16 am

RE: Lack Of Crashes (LGA)

Tue Jan 21, 2003 3:01 am

BigPhil, I think OPNLGuy ment that at any other airport it would have been no big deal, because it would have just skidded into mud at the end of the runway. Go back and read the quote.

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