KAUSpilot
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Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:01 pm

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20030105&Category=APW&ArtNo=301050547&Ref=AR

Apparantly a China Airlines 747 had a close call in Hawaii today. Nothing definite out from the FAA yet. What do you think? Dangerous situation or over reaction?

*DISCLAIMER* I have made a serious effort not to violate copyright rules here, please don't delete.
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:17 pm

China Airlines belongs to the government of the Republic of China, aka Taiwan.

Well I don't know if it is an overreaction, afterall it is CI. BUT, can you believe what those 'witnesses' say? I mean all planes are 747s to them...
 
james
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:18 pm

All depends. If it is really 30ft I say we have a problem. Otherwise over reaction.
 
aq737
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:23 pm

I can confirm this news. It seems likely because the witnesses reported the cherry blossom "pinky red" tail and blue stripes. It was reported at about 7 so, we do not know what exactly happened, but it is probably likely becuase CI only ops 744s to HNL witht he exception of occassional MD-11s. However, the building is a good distance from the regular approach path to the reef runway during Kona winds. Was it trying to land on the runway usually used by AQ and HA takeoffs? O well, very scary, and this confirms that I will never fly CI, even if they give me a free flight. Whats next? Theyve almost had it all. Plane crashes, wrong runway (even taxiway) takeoffs...the list goes on.

Aq737
 
T prop
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:31 pm

It was reported that the aircraft was over flying the city on a visual approach, most likely for 26R. Controllers noticed and warned the crew that they were to far inland.

An approach to 26R is very unusual for a heavy jet. 26L must not have been available for some reason. On this approach heavy aircraft follow the shoreline and cross land over the harbor, light aircraft do overfly the city.

I can see people panicking because they've never seen a heavy jet fly over downtown so low. As far as 30 feet, thats plain bullshit.

T prop.

 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:54 pm

All I can say is........ CHINA AIRLINES.
 
je89_w
Crew
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:00 pm

At 7 AM . . . what was I doing?




 Sleepy




I don't live in Century Center but I sure heard a roar (sounded like it was overhead) while I was sleeping! (At least I was not 30 feet away from the arriving CI B744!  Nuts) Man! Should have went to the balcony of my condo to photograph it instead of remaining in my bed . . .  Sad

Thanks for the information, I was trying to figure what was that noise.

Jerrold
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:04 pm

I think everyone should wait for the official report. We are all very good at saying how stupid everyone is for making completely wrong comments after the facts are know. Let's not fall into the trap of becoming one of those people shall me?
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:31 pm

Didn't something like this happen before? I remember reading in an Airlines magazine about 5 years back that a DC-10 was actually seen flying at a level BELOW the highrise apartments. People standing on their balconies were actually looking down to see the DC-10 fly past LOL. Imagine that.
 
United777
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:08 pm

I agree with aq737. This is nothing new for China Airlines. Although they may have a good fleet and getting new aircraft there pilots remain the same. I would never fly China Airlines.

I don't know how the airplane could come so close although the aircraft taking off due depart towards downtown Honolulu. It's scary.
 
United777
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:15 pm

There have been strong winds today in the Honolulu area. I think I heard that there were 50-60 MPH winds. Could that have played a factor in the airplane flying too low?
 
bobcat
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:16 pm

the ultimate alarm clock....  Smile


 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 7:19 pm

I think the problem with CI is the management, the way they control their people, in maintainence, pilots, training officers etc... and their training is flawed... I think KE is rather successful with their new training programme in association with FlightSafetyBoeing...

I heard that CI have been hiring quite a number of Belgian and Australian pilots for their new Airbuses or other planes. Let's hope that they start realising their problems and rectify them before it is too late... ( it is half way to becoming late already )...
 
A330
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 8:52 pm

You can now fly in safety on their A340 equipment, they are flown by the best trained people in the airline industry: My ex. collegues of Sabena!
For the rest of the fleet... no comment!
Shiek!
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:06 pm

A330, is that right? Are you sure all of the A340 fleet is flown by ex-Sabena pilots? I believe there are some but am surprised to hear it is all. If it is indeed true then its good news!

Anyways, even if they have the best pilots in the world, they still require good training to keep it up and good maintainence department to keep their planes flying safely, dont u think?
 
airways
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:08 pm

Well, that doesn't really surprise me. But let's wait for an official report by the authorities before we jump to conclusions.

Are the newly hired foreign pilots already flying the A340, did this program already start? And will they hire more for the ordered A330?

Michael
http://airsider.net

 
diezel
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:57 pm

Oh, oh..I'm scheduled to fly China Airlines AMS-BKK-AMS on a 744 in March. (They do have a great business class product with a fine cabin crew)

Should I be worried?
Never be afraid of what you like. (Miles Davis)
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 11:36 pm

Some residents told television station KITV the plane came within 30 feet of the building...

Considering the airline involved, I'm sure this is an exaggeration. It was probably less than 30 feet.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Sun Jan 05, 2003 11:53 pm

Diezel, They indeed do have a nice biz product, fine cabin crew and even finer C or even F class fares... But are you willing to risk your lives?
 
heavymetal
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:02 am

Didn't something like this happen before? I remember reading in an Airlines magazine about 5 years back that a DC-10 was actually seen flying at a level BELOW the highrise apartments. People standing on their balconies were actually looking down to see the DC-10 fly past LOL. Imagine that.

I seem to recall thataircraft was an AA -10 whose pilot-in-command was on his retirement flight and was given wink-wink-nudge-nudge clearance to 'buzz the beach'.

Correct me if I'm wrong , but wasn't the 'Waikiki Flyby' a tradition for many many years?

(In any event if that's what China was atempting, he went overboard)
 
AA717driver
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:46 am

He had to get down that low to see the taxiway he was going to land on! Big grinTC
FL450, M.85
 
bobcat
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:29 am

One of CI's Airbus A340 took off from the taxiway at Anchorage last year... nobody was hurt and the pilots received their punishment(I think...)

To start off 2003, their 747-400 pilot decided to do a fly-by to impress Honolulu residents. I'm sure it was an incredible sight for those folks in the building, as well as the passengers on the 747. I can only imagine how freightened those were... they could have thought the pilots intended to crash into the building!!!  Sad

A few questions:

1) are there instruments inside the 747-400 that will warn the pilot that he's too close(horizontally) to a fixed object?

2) does HNL's air traffic control radar have a record of how close the 747 was to the buliding?

3) if these charges prove to be true, what penalties can the U.S. FAA impose on CI and the pilots involved?

Thanks!

 
bobcat
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:40 am

Also, just saw the China Airlines spokesman interviewed on MAC TV English news program a few minutes ago.(Taiwan government-run satellite TV broadcasting to North America)

He said the pilots will be questioned when they fly back to Taiwan in a couple of days. However, he mentioned there were extremely strong winds in excess of 50 knots in Honolulu on Saturday, which was partially to blame. Can anyone confirm this about the winds? Thanks!


 Smile
 
bobcat
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:50 am

some photos of Century Center in Honolulu, kind of hard
to miss...?

 
Guest

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:35 am

China Airlines has released official statement saying it's a misunderstanding.

CI claims the path that leads to the landing in Honolulu is relatively close to the building.
 
flybulldog
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:40 am

Is there radar that can confirm how close (or far) the plane came to the building?
 
vafi88
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:55 am

Big deal, I'm sure the residents were amazed and loved the performance, nothing to piss your pants about...
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
kaitak
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:30 am

This is not the first time CAL has come to the attention of the FAA for serious errors; the A340 last year and now this. But what would happen if there were actually an incident. Diplomacy might well come into it, particularly as the US govt lobbied very hard to get CAL to buy 744s recently.

And what if this plane had actually hit; with 9/11 still fresh in the memory, some might think of terrorism, whereas it's actually CAL just doing what CAL does far too often.
 
EGGD
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:40 am

If it was a CI pilot, he was probably aiming for the building  Big grin
 
heavymetal
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:32 am

Big deal, I'm sure the residents were amazed and loved the performance, nothing to piss your pants about...

An airline with this one's safety record needs to go to great length to avoid this "performance".

Just having ChinaAirlines fly near your city qualifies as a pants-pisser in my opinion.
 
United777
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:34 am

Going back to my past post and bobcats in the discussion.

There was high winds in the area in Honolulu and could have played a huge factor in this. There was winds up to 50 to 60mph around the islands. I would imagine a huge Boeing 747 could handle that though.

Here in Seattle we had a wind storm too about 50mph winds and I saw a EVA Airways 747-400 take-off perfectly fine.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:43 am

I just got back from Taiwan, thank god Northwest flies there. I wouldn't set foot on a CI aircraft.

Also, why is it that when some asian airlines are trying to improve their safety they start hiring foreign pilots? I guess that says a lot about some asian flight schools and their training.
 
BlueJet
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:48 am

hahahahhahahahahaha hmmmmm.....
 
pilottim747
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:57 am

Here's a local news link:

Low-flying 747 shocks residents -- The Honolulu Advertiser

And here's the schedule of the involved flight:
China Airlines Flt. 0018
NRT to HNL
7:35pm - 7:05am
Boeing 744
Actual arrival at 6:59am in HNL

pilottim747
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
Guest

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:06 am

China Airlines now says it could be a JAL 747 that was nearly hit the building.

An old lady who lives at the building says she saw "a red colour tail" plane almost hit the building.

China Airlines denies it's their plane, saying it could be JAL's.
 
blink182
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:33 am

Considering China Airlines' record, I doubt it was JAL. Also, JAL does not have any blue on its colorscheme like some witnesses say they saw.

blink
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
TK
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:08 am

VonRichtofen,

That comment was inappropriate and uncalled-for. The vast majority of airlines in asia have good safety records and have very competent and professional operations. Airlines like China Airlines (Taiwan) and Korean Air should not be viewed as representative of the whole asian aviation scene.
 
trex8
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:38 am

CI pilot training is essentially that of LufthansaTechnik nowadays and its ab initio pilot training in ND is with one of the best university programs in the US. Lets wait and see what the offical report says. Having seen 747s "crab land " into kai tak. a near miss of that building at HNL is a non event! Many other major airlines have had near misses where " but for the grace of God" things could have been real bad! In CIs case, the worse always seems to happen but even Qantas missed a major disaster with its 747 overrun at BKK, if it had been at kai tak as the CI 744 several years ago, that Qantas plane would have been a complete hull loss also and with loss of life too as it was going way faster than that CI plane which really just slid barely into the harbor.
 
Guest

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:48 am

Just saw this comment from Taiwan, saying it could be a Northwest 747, since the tail is "red".
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:13 am

Well I looked into an accident database, to see just how bad the numbers are for Chinese carriers. And it doesn't look too good. Here are the numbers for accidents beginning in the '90s to 2002.

China Southern Airlines 2 accidents: 176 dead
China Southwest Airlines 3 accidents: 216 dead
China Northwest Airlines 2 accidents: 215 dead
China Northern Airlines 2 accidents: 114 dead
China Eastern Airlines 3 accidents: 38 dead
Xiamen Airlines 1 accident: 82 dead
And last but not least,
China Airlines (since '91) 6 accidents: 693 dead

In last decade or so, Chinese carriers have suffered:

19 accidents killing a total of 1,534 passengers.

Yet, the number of aircraft and passenger miles flown by Chinese carriers is far less than the numbers for the US, for example. So the percentile rate of accidents is completely unacceptable by western standards.

So yes, there is a significant problem with Chinese carriers. But I fear the numbers for the South American and African carriers may not be that much better.

So the problem is not with the Chinese per se, but with lesser-developed countries in second and third-world nations using a system that is much newer to them. In the west, we had high accident rates too, 50 years ago. In the interim, the west has refined the systems, procedures, and protocols to a fine art, such that accidents rates are extremely low.

The Chinese are at the place now where the west was 50 years ago. In time they will improve as did the west. Unfortunately, 50 years ago the planes were smaller and slower. Third-world carriers don't have that luxury of learning on a DC-3 with 15 passengers. Kinetic energies were a lot less in that flight environment of yesteryear. Today, the planes are big, take-off and landing speeds are fast, and hundreds can be packed it. One blown landing, one grievous error in judgment, and 200 can be killed in a shot. And that is what is happening now to the Chinese.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
dc863
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:19 am

I'm not sure how much light their is at 6:55am in Hawaii but how can the crew not recognize their mistake?
 
usairways85
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:52 am

just heard a report on CNN, they said it was a Korean Air 744, yet showed film of a China Airlines 744. They also said that the plane was no more than a mile off course, now for a plane coming close to landing isn't a mile off course a lot???
 
bobcat
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:13 am

This is on CNN:
"The China Airlines Boeing 747 was less than a mile off course Saturday morning, said Allen Kenitzer, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration. He said the plane flew over land when its normal course to Honolulu International Airport would have kept it over the ocean, but would not speculate why. "





 
Guest

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:33 am

I think the hiring of foreign flight crew has something to do with the fact that they come already type-rated and with a significant amount of hours on type (A340, whatever)....and of course, they're available for hire. Ideally, they are employed to fill the gap whilst local employees are trained to the required standards.

I've been told some airlines prefer to train and then hire locals, whose salaries are not based on the prevailing international market rate. Plus of course there may be some moral pressure to discriminate against hiring foreigners (affirmitive action?) although judging by the Captain on my Korean Air flight to Sydney last month (British) that isn't yet happening (in an increasingly globalised world, you could argue that foreigners vs local hiring is irrelevant and besides the point)...

Rgds

 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:51 am

Hmmmm...

Why don't you shows statistics for the last 5 years compared to statistics for the last 5 years from the US? The Chinese airlines have improved a lot and will continue to do so, whereas the US seems to be reaching a plateau in terms of air safety. Everyone knows you can make statistics show what you like, and I would happily set foot on some of those airlines in your list before getting onboard certain US carriers....apart from China Airlines. Anyone getting on board one of them has a deathwish.
 
bobcat
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:27 am

I would like to know why China Airlines is doing so well financially... Most of the planes between USA and Taiwan/Asia are doing extremely well... especially those flights departing LAX/SFO/JFK... those passengers have other choices, right?(BR, UA, NW, AA all fly to Taiwan)

In addition, the code-share between DL and CI is now being discussed between the two airlines again. The plan was scrapped after CI's most recent 747-200 crash...  Sad

 
hoons90
Posts: 3116
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:41 am

No it cannot be Korean Air, as Korean Air flies the Boeing 777 to HNL, and witnesses reported the cherry blossom "pinky red" tail and blue stripes. according to Aq737.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:52 am

In addition, the code-share between DL and CI is now being discussed between the two airlines again.

What the h*ll is DL trying to do... develope the ScaryTeam alliance??!? As if KE and an impending SU partnership werent bad enough.... they now want to put their pax on CHINA AIRLINES??!?!?!
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
trex8
Posts: 4576
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:08 am

CIs record may be bad but its still a heck of a lot safer than driving and thats probably why they still make a fair profit, plus they are a very big cargo carrier!

Plus they do have a good cabin service product and if the fares are cheap enough people will fly a hot air balloon piloted by a blind person!

Also the number of fatalities is somewhat skewed statistically as CI has such a high load factor and a high proportion of wide bodies so when one goes down, its usually 200+ people easily! None of these 100 people on a MD80 etc

You can't compare mainland Chinese and Taiwanese airlines. Its total apples and oranges! Heck, they don't even allow direct flights yet between the 2 places since their little civil war half a century ago! The only thing they have in common is the language!

Not sure what CIs problems are, its not straight forward. KEs problems were "simpler".Junior officers not questioning seniors. CI has that problem too but there may be other problems and a big dose of plain bad luck, eg their 747F loss was the first of the 200Fs losing engines from the pylon design problem, next real bad crash for that problem was the El Al one into the apartment building in Amsterdam! Or the flipped CI MD11 at HKG, when Fedex does that no one cares as only some packages and the crew get hurt! Even the first A300 loss at Nagoya could be partly laid at Airbuses lap, there were several very close calls with European carriers for what was essentially the same control problem.

Taiwanese pilots can be top notch, at least their present air force ones are, they have been kicking the daylights out of USAF F16 trainees at Luke for the last 6 years. In the first year or two of their training unit in AZ, they were beating navy and marine F18 pilots over 10:1 in air-air combat. And their F16s had Sparrows and the US pilots Amraams! Getting a posting to the Taiwanese unit is now a highly sought job for senior USAF F16 instructors.

Until recent years Taiwanese law actually prohibited more than a token number of expatriate aircrew. This has changed due to both safety reasons and the dire need to fuel expansion of the local airlines. The recent Belgian and Australian hires are part of the need to get experienced aircrew immediately and they follow a number of N American and European pilots with CI. One of the CI crashes was with a very experienced ex Alitalia MD11 captain at the controls so expat crews don't guarantee you are ok on CI.

 
Spaceman
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 3:28 pm

RE: Chinese Jumbo Jet Misses Honolulu Hi-Rise By 30ft

Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:15 am

It is not a cherry blossom on the tail of a CI plane Hoons 90. It is another kind of flower which I don't know in English.

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