AA777-200
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CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 3:47 am

Anyone have any idea as to whats going on in CLE? They are ground stopped for an aircraft incident right now and there are some flights diverting. EGF 4434 going LGA CLE diverted to TOL and AAL 1696 stopped enroute going DFW CLE stopped at SDF. Any idea please let us know
Thanks!
Brad
 
FATFlyer
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:02 am

Media reports are that a COEx RJ skidded across a runway.
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_fullstory.asp?id=1789
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AA777-200
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:03 am

NW 1712 MSP CLE diverted to DTW
Comair 5734 CVG CLE went back to CVG
UAX 659 IAD CLE went to DTW
im off to work though....keep us updated
 
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clickhappy
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:05 am

local forecast says 25 and snowing.
 
flyCMH
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:08 am

WKYC 3 is reporting that a Continental Express ERJ-145 nose gear collapsed and the aircraft slid off the runway in what looks lik extremely snowy conditions in Cleveland. The story and photo are provided at:

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_fullstory.asp?id=1789
 
Stretch 8
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:10 am

Does it have anything to do with the river being on fire?
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ExpressJet_ERJ
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:17 am

There is alot of snow in Cleveland and it justs keeps falling! Roads are horrible.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:27 am

I was out at DTW earlier today when the diversions were coming in, I was kind of suspicious something was up over in CLE due to about 4 COEx ERJ's, 2 CO 737's, and 2 AA (former) TWA MD-80's arriving in a 30 minute period. I figured some of those were legitimate DTW ops, but obviously not all of them.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:28 am

We've got 5 inches and deepening here in CLE. The ERJ skidded off runway 6L where it's gear collapsed. Traffic was stopped around 1PM but should be close to normal now.
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heavymetal
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:51 am

Does it have anything to do with the river being on fire?

Actually Stretch they set fire to the river whenever conditions go Cat III. The warm toasty glow brings the birds right down to the concrete. (Of course it's Lorain Avenue but still).

Seriously, your data is outdated.....the only true flammable items in downtown Cleveland is the hair in the armpits of the Pittsburgh Steeler womenfolk when they visit to cheer on their team.
 
CoAir@IAH
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:16 am

Holy Crap!
What a great shot at Steeler fans!

I seriously never gave the Browns a shot, without Couch and all, but at least you did not pull a move only the Houston Oilers could get away with. In 1992, we, er I mean they, had a 35-3 lead and lost. Now that is a record that will NEVER be broken - EVER.

 
corocks
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:27 am

Sliding off the runway caused the nosegear to collapse or the nose gear collapsing caused the plane to slide off the runway?

Doesn't really say in the article.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:46 am

I think it is supposed to snow in Detroit tonight, so thats the last place you want to send a plane if Jan 1999 or Dec 2000 ring a bell.
 
ExpressJet_ERJ
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:57 am

CoAir...WTH? Righhhhttt... Anyways, getting back to the ERJ, I'm pretty sure it was N16571 delivered in October 2002. Brand new! On the news, people were acting like they were going to die! They were like "once I saw the snow flying passed the windows I knew we were doomed, so I just braced for the impact." And they were saying how they were coming in too fast. I don't know what these people are talking about! Its kinda hard to tell you are coming in fast with a very limited visibility, also, the snow will be flying past the windows at 130kts!! lol
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coboeing777
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:23 am

I wonder if the gear collapsed causing it to skid off the runway. The pics I saw on the news clearly showed the nose "down" in the ground but because of all the snow it was hard to tell if it was the gear that collapsed or that it kinda ran into a ditch. I about a month or so there was an ERJ that immediately after pushback had the nose gear collapse. I dont know what became of that investigation, though. I was thinking that maybe the pilots inadvertantly hit the gear up lever, but thats seems unlikely. There was another time about a month ago that I was waiting on an XRJ arrival(the new ERJs with the winglets) and the aircraft had to be towed into the gate with one of the mini supertugs after the captain reported some type of problem with the nose gear. That aircaft was BRAND NEW as well...no more than a week or 2 old. So, has anyone else heard of any nose gear problems with the Embraer ERJs or are those just 3 isolated gear related incidents? I'm curious now.

Joe
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:30 am

I agree with Expressjet, the stupid passengers don't know what the heck they're talking about and it's a waste to interview them. I remember last year a DL MD80 went off the runway and the pax they interviewed (a yokel) said something to the effect of "we were comin in REAL fast and when we hit the ground the pilot threw it into reverse...." First, how do you judge speed from your 6 inch across window? And second, how does one "throw an airplane into reverse?" Whatever. As for COboeing, you can't hit the gear up lever on the ground, there is a safety pin in the gear.
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coboeing777
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:43 am

N766UA, I'm not sure if this is true(maybe someone can confirm) but I think that if the gear lever on an RJ is raised on the ground, the nose gear will go up. Its the main gears that won't because there are sensors that detect weight on wheels. I know a mechanic told me that was at least true for the MD80s. This is only what I've been told by a mechanic so maybe he was pulling my leg, I don't know.
 
ExpressJet_ERJ
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:52 am

CoBoeing, I can't verify that, but someone might be able to, I'll ask. Anyways, heres a picture of N16571 in happier days, actually, right before delivery!


http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.cgi?1031323384:BEL
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N766UA
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 9:58 am

You may be correct, COboeing, but i thought all gear were secured if the pin was in- as in pushback.
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IAHERJ
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:06 am

You have to hit an override switch as well as lift the lever on the ground. That means you would have to really want to raise the gear on the ground in order to lift the handle. The incident in EWR involved a pushback crew and I don't know the details. I've had a bit of a problem getting the reversers to open on landing but it is normally an air/ground sensor problem associated with a x-wind landing or a smooth landing( in my case the first scenerio is more common). On an icy runway with wind and blowing snow you normally just plant it which can't confuse the air/ground sensors and reversers deploy easily. The picture of this plane depicts 2 reversers still deployed after the aircraft is stopped so at least we know they worked at some point.
Passangers sensationalize stuff so much and the press just loves it. How many times have you heard a passanger blow something way out of proportion. It's just what they do. I'm not trying to make light of the typical passangers experience on this landing as it must have been eventful, but the press letting them make judgement calls as to why the plane went off the runway is rediculous. But then again, when has the press ever let the truth get in the way of a sensational TV interview?
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
coboeing777
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:13 am

N766UA...are you talking about the bypass pin to prevent the flight crew from steering the nose gear during pushback? I think thats what you are referring to about puhsback. The RJs dont use a bypass pin like 737, 757s, 777s, etc. use. Just disconnect the towbar and the headsets and you're done.

About that nosegear collapse at EWR I was talking about... what I remember is that the gear collapsed as the plane began to taxi, well after the towbar and such was disconnected.

ExpressJet_ERJ..would you find out about that if its true about the nose gear. I'd like to know for sure. I can't ask any MX myself as I just left on a COLA.

One more thing...a/c # 571....I remember seeing that aircraft about a week or two ago just before I left. I remember looking at the tail # and saying to myself "its mising the U in front of 571" in reference to that movie U-571.

Joe
 
coboeing777
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:20 am

IAHERJ, must have been typing my post whlie you posted yours. Thanks for the info about the nosegear. I was thinking it couldnt be as easy as just flipping up the gear lever. I dont remember what the MX tech said exactly since it was a few years ago...but then again, he was talking about the MD80. anyways, enough of that. I did too notice that the clamshells were still deployed. I was wondering what the deal was with that.
 
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Bruce
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:11 am

Any idea of the reg #????? i have shot a lot of CO EX ERJs lately.

bruce
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N766UA
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:11 am


From a data strip: W1 GROUND STOP CLE ...INDEFINATE DELAY ...ACFT OFF THE END..... ZOBTMUPZ061752
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jetdoctor
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:27 am

the ERJ, does not have a nose gear bypass pin. The pilots simply hit a sterring disconnect trigger on the yoke, for pushback, or there is a sterring disconnect swich outside, on the newer ERJ's. (This is located on the forward left side of the fuselage). Or the Nose Gear steering breaker can be pulled for pushback. (MTX operations).

There is, however, gear pins that go in all 3 gear. These are used by MTX when moving aircraft. These are kept in the cockpit (behind the ca seat) and have "remove before flight" ribbons on them.

As far as the nosegear reatracting on the ground, this is unlikely due to the fact that there are proximity switches that are there to prevent it. Those same prox switches also have to be closed in order to allow the thrust reversers to operate (+ other perameters).

Hopefully this clears a few things up for you.

RT
Break ground, and head into the wind. Don't break wind and head into the ground.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:11 pm

Watching the Cleveland news is just crap ("Is it safe to fly at Hopkins in the snow??")....Passengers don't really have any room for judgement that the pilots came in "fast". One passenger said that they came in "hot" blah blah blah. I can only believe this to be partially true because they would have had the anti-ice on during the approach correct? If the anti-ice is on that utilizes the HP bleeds reducing available power which means the pilots would have to have had a higher N1 correct? If that is true, wouldn't that mean that Vref would be up prolly about a max of 5 kts? So I can understand how they would have come in faster but that wouldn't have been noticeable to a passenger...

People just say what the press wants them to hear just to get their 10 seconds of fame.

I hope someone can answer my questions...thank you in advance!

Ry
 
KROC
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:20 pm

There is alot of snow in Cleveland and it justs keeps falling!

Good call, that is quite a common occurance in a snow storm.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:20 pm

Almost as good as the call during the Concorde crash when that female reporter asks...

"Presumably the plane was filled with fuel?"
 
erj-145mech
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:28 pm

On the ERJ, if the pilot pushes the red over ride button next to the landing gear handle, he then over rides the safety factor of the WOW sensors, and the plane thinks that its in the air. If there is hydraulic pressure, it only takes 25-35 lbs of force to overcome the overcenter of the nose gear drag brace, and the gear only mearly has to rotate forward. The mains can't rotate inward due to the weight of the plane on them, but the nose gear will fold.

On a side note, a/c 571 was delivered in August. The only deliveries in October were XRJ's, beginning with a/c 102.

Dave
 
zrb2
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:26 pm

Regarding passenger reaction, I agree that some of the comments after incidents are ridiculous but I dispute your notion that passengers cannot tell if plane is coming in fast. Most frequent flyers and aviation enthusiasts (who fly now and then) know what a "normal" landing feels like. I do recall a few specific flights where the landings seemed abnormally fast. Just last month I flew into BUF on a very windy, snowy day. The pilot might have been going a bit faster to compensate for the wind but I could easily tell we were on final approach much faster than normal. He planted it on the runway and with hard brakes and thrust reverse we used almost every bit of the 8,000' runway. My point is that you don't have to be a licensed pilot to make that observation.
 
CoAir@IAH
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:23 pm

I agree with Zrb2....

I have been on numerous ERJ flights and landing speeds vary. I am certainly no expert when it comes to flying, but I can tell when we are going faster than usual.

I'm sure the speed of the landing had very little to do with the accident, but when something goes wrong everything is analyzed. My guess is that the planed landed and hit some ice. But again, that is simply a guess.

CoAir.
 
redngold
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Wed Jan 08, 2003 5:09 am

With yesterday's winds, I wouldn't be surprised if the engine noise or anything that the pax said about "landing hot" was actually due to correction for windshear.

I got up close and personal to the recovery efforts last night (or as close as you can get these days.) I waited for almost two hours out in the cold (yes, I froze the top layer off my face before I got back in the car.) It looked like the crew was trying to make some repairs right there with the plane in a sling. Unfortunately I couldn't stay long enough to watch the final removal.

The airport was operating about 1/2 - 3/4 hours behind schedule at 9:00 PM, and they were using Runway 6C/24C even though ATIS said it was closed.

redngold

PS -- I earned the respect of two local TV cameramen -- one from Channel 3 and one from Channel 5 -- for being so die-hard as to stand out there in the cold. Plus I gave them a lot of information about the EMBRAER itself.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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N766UA
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Wed Jan 08, 2003 5:09 am

The point isnt that you can't tell, it's that they can't tell. The people interviewed were definatly not aviation enthusiasts and therefore don't know accuratly what speed they were going.
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ExpressJet_ERJ
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:18 am

First off, the registration was N16571 . And, KROC, they asked what the weather was like, so I told 'em it was snowing basically!lol
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ExpressJet_ERJ
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:26 am

Red n' gold, didn't happen to get any pictures while you were there, did ya?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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redngold
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Wed Jan 08, 2003 8:08 am

Expressjet -- unfortunately, my camera cannot take photographs at night outside. And it would have frozen, too.

For those of you who didn't know, the plane's nosegear collapsed after it went off the runway... because it hit instruments and antennae at the end.

Complicating matters the aircraft took out the PAPI at the approach end of 24R, so that runway is now out of service until they can replace it! So much for our new runway being open for use! ARGH.

redngold
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ramper@iah
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RE: CLE Closed---diversions In Progress

Wed Jan 08, 2003 8:19 am

Look at these pictures. CLE had white-out conditions soon after the mis-hap.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/n16571/photo.shtml