na
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UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 2:39 am

To all who still think UAL wouldn´t part from their beloved 777s: The current "World Airline Fleets" issue mentions that some newer ones owned by Boeing Capital might be recovered by the manufacturer quite soon if UAL fails to fulfill its lease contracts under Chapter 11.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 3:50 am

I'm still wondering why they havent offered some of their less-valuable 772As up for sale.... guess they're either paid for or no carrier is in the market.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
thadocta
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:16 am

Completely off-topic, but why is it that so many Yanks seem to confuse "loose" and "lose"? They have quite different meanings, and are certainly not interchangeable.

Dave
 
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RayChuang
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:24 am

But how long ago was that article printed??? I'm sure that Boeing Capital has since the time the article was printed worked out better terms so the newer 777-200ER's will stay in UA's fleet, since the 772ER will become the backbone of UA's international operations in the future. Now, Boeing Capital buying back the older 777-200A's would make more sense since UA won't need such a large plane with much shorter range than the 772ER.
 
picarus
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:25 am

Na-

It's not quite that simple. Boeing can't simply "repo" aircraft under Chapter 11 proceedings. A petition has to be files with the Court; and that doesn't happen overnight.

Thadocta- Granted, we are a somewhat illiterate society, but not guilty of the charge in this case. Check out originator's profile.

Picarus
 
captaingomes
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:28 am

Continuing off topic, Na is from Germany! Maybe english isn't his first language. Overall though, his english is very strong, and probably better than your German, don't you think, docta?  Smile
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
speedport
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:33 am

You've missed the whole point.

The point is that United can not bank on cutting the lease rates on newer 777s by very much, like they are with older aircraft such as a 757, because newer 777s can easily be leased to other airlines, unlike older aircraft.

All the article was trying to point out is that United doesn't have much leverage in its renegotiation of newer 777 leases, and if they try by playing hard ball, Boeing could also play hard ball by pulling their planes.

It is knee jerk reactions like yours, which only want to see the worst happen to United, that gives the competition a bad name.
 
kaitakfan
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:17 pm

Dave, you see a spelling mistake and you assume it is an American? God how disgusting people can be with generalizations! That kind of attitude sure does no good to a great breed of people (aussies) on this planet.
 
mls515
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:44 pm



Loose and lose are easy ones to confuse. What I hate is when people confuse their, they're and there.

They're going over there to get their stuff........
 
L-188
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:09 pm

As far as loose and lose. I blame the spellchecker.


As far as airlines losing leased aircraft during bankrupcy. It can happen. GE did that to Markair with the 737's that they where leasing when the latter went bellyup in 1996.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
aamd11
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:14 pm

Can we please keep on topic here!

Placing a handful of 77A's cant be that hard, Air Algierie or whatever just got 2 Ex-BA -236's two aircraft which were, i beleieve number 10 or soemthing off the line, 1995 originals them -236's.

But as someone said, its the money that counts, if Boeing wants the ERs back to put with someone else then i'm sure they will do that.

A^A MD-11
 
donder10
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:28 pm

Americans are not a race but a collection of races thus it is xenophobia not racism ,if anything at all.

UA could do with losing the non-ER versions IMO,if they have to lose some 772s,as they will help to eliminate a sub-type.However,I believe these are configured in the domestic lay-out so re-configuring some ER versions into this lay-out may off-set the saving made by reducing the sub-type.But do UA really need a domestic 777 fleet?Perhaps they could reconfigure some international 763s into domestics and then cut the 777 non-ERs?

 
ryanair
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:03 am

Boeing will do all it can to keep UAL flying, if UAL want a discount Boeing will bend over backwards to help. Having UAL's fleet grounded and up for grabs would be a nightmare situtaion for Boeing, short term cheaper lease rates, even if that were to spread to other airlines (as it would probably to a degree) is a lessor evil.
 
UAL-Fan
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:29 am

Unless Boeing is miffed about all of those A320's and A319's UAL is flying around in.
 
gigneil
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Sun Jan 19, 2003 7:14 am

60 777s is a pretty valuable order, and would cause ruin to the 777 line if they all suddenly became available.

I'd go so far to say that the 60 777s is probably worth a good fraction of what an order for 737-300s and -400s would have been, since that was all that was available when UA started ordering Airbus. I bet Boeing is perfectly happy with the business they got.

N
 
A330_DTW
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:10 am

Thadocta,

Even more off-topic, English is a rather complex language which is why so many spelling and grammar mistakes are so frequently made.

For instance, the British penchant for placing the letter "u" in some rather strange places, such as in "colour", "flavour", "neighbour", etc.

"Our" is not pronounced as "er", so why throw that "u" in the middle of those words? Furthermore, "Lieutenant" has no "f" in it, and "settee" has two "t"s, so why is it pronounced as if there were none, i.e., "se'ee", where the " ' "is a glottal stop?

By the way, I've seen some Brits screw up "their", "there" and "they're" just as we "Yanks" do, as well as "your" and "you're".

Ah, I could go on and on [and on] but shan't.
 
aamd11
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:16 am

It's OUR language, and so if we want to put a "U" in there, we can and we will!
 Wink/being sarcastic

Back on topic.
I do think it is in Boeings best interests to keep the 777s with United, they dont want the market to be flooded with used 777s that will damage the value of the new-builds, which are [apparantly] still in demand - they'd like to keep the production lines busy would they not?

A^A MD-11
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:57 am

Ben-

It's OUR language, and so if we want to put a "U" in there, we can and we will!

But you're Canadian, according to your profile! What's up with that, eh?  Big grin




"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
aamd11
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:30 am

NOPE!!
Sorry to dissapoint!
I'm a BRIT LIVING in Canada, in no way am i Canadian, only by residence.

Hope this clears things up
(I was born about 2miles from EMA in Castle Donnington, English all the way  Smile)

A^A MD-11
 
slawko
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:39 am

I hope you are just visiting because other wise you are a Canadian! (sorry to go off topic again) And it is Colour, not color, Flavour not flavor, neighbour, not neighbor  Smile
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:18 pm

Since we are venturing WAY off topic here anyway, leave it to the Brits (and Canadian Brits as well) to put those pesky damn extra u's where they don't belong but remember folks, this is coming from the same people who cannot properly pronounce "aluminum"  Smile

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
fsuwxman
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:15 am

I am 100% American, and I use the u's in the words, I think it looks better and have been doing it for years since back in middle school (+10 years). Yes, I did lose a few points in class for using them... but oh well, it looks cooler...  Nuts
ASOS... Another Shi#y Observation Station
 
ual777contrail
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:27 am

Wouldn't that be a kick, Boeing took back those 777er's and united went all airbus. a340's and all.

I wonder if Boeing is willing to loose the business?
It would be a lose fit for Boeing in the end.

just kidding.

ual 777 contrail
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:15 am

Wow! People here are very imaginative. Firstly, Boeing Capital doesn't own all of UA's 777s, only the last few newly delivered ones in the past two years or so. Secondly, when the time comes that UA will need to ground all their 777s, it means UA would likely have to sell their trans-Atlantic and/or trans-Pacific ops. Then whoever that might pick up UA's international ops will likely pick up UA's 777s, just like UA picked up many of Pan Am's 747s when UA bought PA's LHR and trans-Pacific network. If UA collapses, the 777 in UA's fleet will likely be placed with other airlines much sooner than the other aircraft types in UA's fleet.
 
deltairlines
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 6:03 am

I wouldn't be surprised to see UA lose some 777s, even voluntarily. While they are new, getting rid of them could "cut some fat" off of overcapacitated routes.

And on the language front, I too, use the British spellings, even though I was born in NYC and have lived on the Eastern Seaboard my entire life. I just think that the majority of Americans have screwed another thing up, this being spelling.

Jeff
 
aamd11
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:47 am

We may put u's in all our words..
but at least im not tempted to mis-spell
QANTAS
lol

who ever heard of Quantas anyways??? morons  Pissed

A^A MD-11
 
CX747
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:07 am

Isn't Boeing one of United's biggest creditors? If that is true, I don't think that they are going to be running to court to seize United's 777s. It is in the best interests of both companies for United to continue operations. I do wonder though that with Boeing being United's biggest creditor, if/when they come out of Chap 11, future orders are for Boeings only?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
gigneil
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:13 am

Boeing is not UA's biggest creditor. Airbus is.

Boeing wasn't even on the list of creditors for the Chapter 11 filing.

I don't believe Boeing actually owns any of the 777s. WFBN owns one or two that UA leases.

N
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:13 am

AAMD11,

People mis-spell it Q-U-A-N-T-A-S because they are unaware that it is actually an acronym Q-A-N-T-A-S (Queensland And National Transport Air System, or something like that - it escapes me at the moment).

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool


DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:29 pm

I like the use of "s" in place of "z", myself, and I'm American.

Specialisation, normalisation, capitalisation, etc.

Almost sounds more sophisticated

But hey, guys, seriously, they're two different variations on the language.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:56 pm

Queensland And National Transport Air System

Actually, it's "Queensland And Northern Territories Aerial Service Ltd."
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 6:05 pm

ConcordeBoy,

Thanks for the correction. As I stated, I wasn't too sure what it was but I was certain that it was an acronym. Thanks again.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:54 pm

ConcordeBoy was close, but it should be Aerial Services. He missed the plural part.  Big grin
 
cloudy
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:10 am

if/when they come out of Chap 11, future orders are for Boeings only?
----

If I remember correctly, exclusivity contracts are illegal now.I've got a vague memory that Boeing negotiated a few a while back with Delta, among other carriers. Airbus griped, and got them overturned. Not that the said carriers are actually buying Airbus, but AI did manage to show the illegality of exclusive contracts in this case. Perhaps someone else can come up with real sources regarding this.

Boeing has been kind to customers in tough streights in the past. Airtran comes to mind. Boeing saved a production line by saving its launch customer.
But it irritated another all-Boeing customer in the process (Delta).

Thats the problem with Boeing being all to nice to United because it is a customer. United's competitors are Boeing customers also, and more loyal to boot.

Bottom line - Boeing may not be so eager to save the largest and most high-profile Airbus customer on the continent. American, Continental, Southwest, etc. would fly 737's where United now flies A320's. United's competitors are more loyal customers and would not look kindly on such a move, anyway.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:27 am

Airbus griped, and got them overturned

No they didnt. Boeing agreed to release the airlines from contractual obligation as a prerequisite of taking over McDonnel Douglas.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
cloudy
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:40 am

Thanks for the correction.
 
gigneil
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:53 am

I was incorrect. Boeing Capital is a creditor.

Its #20 of the top 20 creditors. Its claim is for about $2,000,000, and it's been disputed by United.

Airbus' claim is for about $48,000,000.

Various banks, including Bank One, Bank of New York, and Wells Fargo, have upwards of $400,000,000 or $500,000,000.

I don't think Boeing will have anything to say about anything in any of these proceedings, nor do they have any airplanes to reposess.

Allegations that Boeing is United's biggest creditor are quite false.

N
 
cloudy
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:42 am

Gigneil's data comes from the bankruptcy petition, I believe. This can be found at "the smoking gun".

However, the picture is allot more complicated than that list would make it appear. No doubt some creditors are guaranteed by others. Some creditors are owned by others. Some debt is secured and some is not.

When vendor financing is involved, it is not always given directly in Boeing or Airbus's name. Business partners, owned financing or leasing companies (like Boeing Capital), shell companies, and outside banks are usually involved somehow. It is possible that Boeing or AI's fingers are all over some of those bank loans. Boeing or AI may have a great deal more at risk in the UA bankruptcy than paper figures suggest.

In short....this is to complicated a matter to judge by mere statistics on a legal document. Anyone who was burned in the Enron affair would tell you that there is allot more to this sort of thing than meets the eye.
 
jettrader
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Fri Jan 24, 2003 6:15 pm


"...this is to complicated a matter..."

Erm...perhaps that should be "too complicated"...?  Wink/being sarcastic

Don't you just love it. Well you know what they say..."two races separated by a common language".  Nuts

Regards,
JT
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
bravo45
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:23 pm

I'm still wondering why they havent offered some of their less-valuable 772As up for sale.... guess they're either paid for or no carrier is in the market.
I heard that UAL's 777s were an option while PIA was considering its expansion. But later they ordered new ones (don't know what was wrong with that offer).
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: UAL May Loose Some 777s Soon

Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:18 pm

Yes, PIA did consider to take three to five of UAL's recently delivered 772ERs. Those are the ones being financed by Boeing Capital. Boeing Capital has nothing to do with the majority of UA's 777 fleet.