slawko
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Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:54 am

Seems that Canada and Hong Kong have agreed to make it easier for Canadian/Hong Kong airlines to provide service between Hong Kong and Canada. The new agreement will allow for more code share agreements with other airlines, and improved service between the two countries over all...

Check out the news sections of:
http://www.torontoaviation.com & http://www.yyznews.com
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
connector4you
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:26 am

That could be very good news for Vancouver International!  Big thumbs up
 
slawko
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:06 am

I think this means more code-sharing in and out of Canada/Hong Kong as opposed to new/more flights
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Rai
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 9:27 am

I think this means more code-sharing in and out of Canada/Hong Kong as opposed to new/more flights

I'd agree...aside from YVR and YYZ, there really isn't much other need for direct flights to HKG.
 
connector4you
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:18 pm

How about beyond Hong Kong . . . ? Big grin
 
CX829
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:47 pm

Let's go HKG-YTS direct and connect onto Jetsgo!!!
 
B-HOP
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 9:27 pm

How about YUL-HKG, any markets?
Live life to max!!!
 
slawko
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:32 pm

The countries Asian and Business centers are YYZ and YVR and as such a YUL market for HKG would be very very small...But this new agreement would allow for CX to put its code on an AC or other flight between YZ and UL. You will probably see the AC code on Singapore,ANA, and Asian flights out of HKG.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:25 am

Slawko,

I wouldnt designate YUL has a very very small demand for HKG, granted that a good portion of your direct flights to NRT/HKG come from YUL..

When I flew back from spotting with ya'll a week ago, half my plane were connex pax from KE.. I thought I was going to Korea or something..

I always thought a YUL-YYC-HKG route could work...

Mark
 
Rai
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:53 am

I always thought a YUL-YYC-HKG route could work...

Calgary has the third largest Chinese population in Canada (not even THAT big) and I seriously doubt a YYC-HKG flight would work under any citcumstances. The HK market is pretty slow right now. Even AC has cut capacity on the YVR-YYC route.

There just aren't that many Asians in Montreal.
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:11 am

Raj,

2001 census shows something like 12% of visible minorities in MTL are of Asian decent..... Its not only Asian that travel to HKG, tourists, business etc... MTL asian population is still bigger than Thunder Bay  Big thumbs up

Mark

 
slawko
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:23 am

Still doesnt make it more viable to have a flight originate in YUL if you can now add your code to a YUL-YYZ or YUL-YVR flight...I think, Mark you are now really going out there with your YUL flight predictions... YYC can sustain asian flights through the summer because of tourism, but I still doubt that it is viable to operate a direct YYC flight year round when you can just as easily funnel those pax through one of the gateways.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 8:03 am

Slawko,

LOL! I never predicted it, and I never ever expect to even see this route commence. But in a perfect world, maybe this route could work, who knows?

Yep, without the good old YUL feed.. where would you guys be  Big thumbs up How about those 60 people on my flight from KE  Big thumbs up

Mark
 
slawko
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:03 am

Do you know for sure that they were KE connections...and it is winter they could have been part of a ski tour group...and if that is the case then its hardly the type of traffic that could make a route profitable...unless they want to run a CRJ between Seoul and Montreal  Big grin
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:57 am

2001 census shows something like 12% of visible minorities in MTL are of Asian decent

Perhaps. But they are living in a city with below-average per capita income. Which means that YUL asians have less disposable income for travel to Asia than YVR, YYC or YYZ Asians.

Moreover, did you read the predictions last week for economic growth for Canadian cities by the Conference Board of Canada thru to 2007? YUL will have lower economic growth than YYZ, YVR, YYC, YEG and YOW. Indeed, the lowest in Canada among the major cities. Not good for traffic growth at YUL.

Mark you are now really going out there with your YUL flight predictions... YYC can sustain asian flights through the summer because of tourism

I agree with the former statement! CP used to have nonstop flights briefly from YYC and YEG (at different times) to NRT.

Yep, without the good old YUL feed.. where would you guys be How about those 60 people on my flight from KE

The only sizeable Korean communities in Canada are in YVR and YYZ. The YUL feed to YYZ is probably minimal. Without it, KE would still likely fly to YYZ. Perhaps a gauge downgrade from the 744 to 772.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Rai
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:15 am

2001 census shows something like 12% of visible minorities in MTL are of Asian decent

12% of the VISIBLE MINORITY POPULATION. That's the key. Most people who are visible minorities in Montreal are either Black or Arab. Montreal has about 50,000 Chinese (about the same as Calgary, maybe a little less). I doubt it's enough to warrant a flight to Hong Kong or elsewhere in Asia. Boston has a larger Chinese population than Montreal and they don't have any flights there.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:35 am

AA expressed interest in BOS-NRT prior to 9-11. Indeed, their now-cancelled SEA-NRT originated in BOS. The former CP/AC YVR-BOS flights catered primarily to Asians.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:42 pm

"Moreover, did you read the predictions last week for economic growth for Canadian cities by the Conference Board of Canada thru to 2007? YUL will have lower economic growth than YYZ, YVR, YYC, YEG and YOW. Indeed, the lowest in Canada among the major cities. Not good for traffic growth at YUL."

-Hey Neil. Funny thing eh? The funny thing is that these guys predicted the same for Montreal in a period of 1998-2002. And guess who came out on top with a 4.3% growth???? What a minute -> Montreal?? I love how you can ommit that.. or the fact that we've produced more jobs than you, or the fact that we have the cheapest cost of living, or everything that you choose irrelevant to support your bias view of things.... How easy people can predict things that NEVER come true. And you know what, it makes me even happier to know that I live in one of the most beautiful cities in North America (something that doesnt apply to Toronto), and making money off Torontonians and Albertans... Sweet deal if you ask me! But it's ok, I will send my Asian buddies via Toronto and Vancouver just for you!

And to your advantage Neil, its now 3 years in a row that Montreal has topped off Toronto Big grin ..... all talk no BITE coming down the 401 as usual, GO LAUGHS GO!


-Raj, your right, I just re-read the census. We still have a lot of Asians... they are everywhere Big grin So we have more Arabs than Toronto...  Big thumbs up I hear Khalifa is looking to start Montreal service this summer.... I wonder where these guys get their money.

Mark

 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:43 pm

"The only sizeable Korean communities in Canada are in YVR and YYZ. The YUL feed to YYZ is probably minimal. Without it, KE would still likely fly to YYZ. Perhaps a gauge downgrade from the 744 to 772. "

-If Air Canada starts YYZ-ICN, I wonder if KE will keep their service. It was nice to be in the car with Tony and watching the B744 come over... nice looking plane! HOpe they dont overshoot the runway as per their usual tendencies.

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:18 pm

AC is adding YYZ-ICN service because they are ending their codeshare with KE. There is probably enough traffic for them each to operate 2-3 weekly flights on YYZ-ICN.

Mark, if you disagree with the Conference Board of Canada's predictions for economic growth, why don't you take it up with them?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:29 pm

Firstly, I dont disagree with their numbers, but theyve been wrong for the last 4-5 years. Im learning all about the volatility of predictions.... FYI  Big thumbs up

As for KE/AC code-share, ive never heard of this... can anybody get back to me about this? SkyTeam/Star.... hmmmm

Mark

 
Rai
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:31 pm

Here is the link to Neil's claim:

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/press/2003/can_mo_winter03.asp

Though I'm really suspect about their predictions for Vancouver. That city's economy has been in the dumps for a while now.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:41 pm

Thanks Rai.

The AC/KE codeshare I think was just a hang-over from the pre-alliance days.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:43 pm

I dont think it exists..

Mark
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:52 pm

I wonder how AC will fare against Korean...

I do not think there's room for both of them... not yet anyways. So how about those 345's Anyone exited? I am. For the simple reason that for every one of these babies in service, they need 80 Cabin crew. That means possible return for gas guy over here.

Despite the fumes I am not holding my breath.  Smile
 
Rai
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:52 pm

I recall there being a KE/AC codeshare because I was trying to book a flight to Seoul when I was living in Canada and the travel agent told me that I'd have an AC ticket on a KE flight.

I'd be surprised if AC goes through with a flight to ICN because there really aren't too many Koreans living in YYZ (around 40,000) either. Vancouver (to my surprise) has even less!
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:59 pm

Well like we've discussed earlier,

YYZ-ICN is another of AC's pipe dreams .. they barely fill YYZ-NRT... oh no Im gonna get heat for this Big grin

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 2:02 pm

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you Greg!

Maybe AC feels it can grab some of the traffic from KE. I understood that a high proportion of the KE traffic to YYZ was organized tours for Koreans as opposed to VFR for Korean-Canadians.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:17 pm

YYZ-ICN is another of AC's pipe dreams .. they barely fill YYZ-NRT...

YYZ-NRT is a reality. It happens every day. And back.

YUL-NRT is a pipedream.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
GuyBetsy1
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:17 pm

The discussion is about the Canada/HK bilateral agreement. How did ICn and NRT get pulled into this?

As for codeshares? The way is there for it to happen. But unless CX has another partner other than Air Canada, it's not going to happen.

But I do see each airline putting an extra flight a couple of times a week to the HKG-YVR route. And maybe when AC starts its nonstop HKG-YYZ that CX will follow suit as well.
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:31 pm

"YUL-NRT is a pipedream"

-Nobody here is as insane to think this.... meanwhile you think YYZ-JNB hahaha  Big thumbs up

Go Laughs Go,

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:19 am

I see no market for YYZ-JNB. The only logical markets for the 345 are YYZ-HKG and YVR-SYD.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:54 am

Can Toronto support a YYZ-HKG with Cathay and Air Canada going daily?

... is there space on this market for two non-stop carriers?

Mark
 
Rai
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:14 am

And maybe when AC starts its nonstop HKG-YYZ that CX will follow suit as well.

CX already flies to YYZ, but they stop through ANC. Sometimes they fly non-stop (depending on how strong the winds are) from HKG-YYZ. ANC is just a technical stop.

To my knowledge, CX has no A345's on order, but they do have the A346. Those will be sent to SYD and maybe LAX.
 
Guest

RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:31 am

AC is adding YYZ-ICN service because they are ending their codeshare with KE. There is probably enough traffic for them each to operate 2-3 weekly flights on YYZ-ICN.

AC has end the YYZ-ICN code-share with Korean Air 2 or 3 years ago. Current AC/KE code-share covers' KE code on daily AC YVR-ICN flight.

One of the possibility for AC adds YYZ-ICN is becomes Star is welcoming it's newest member from Korea: Asiana Airlines. More connections between the 2 Star hubs. Same with UA's plan to resume SFO-ICN.



 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:31 am

Can Toronto support a YYZ-HKG with Cathay and Air Canada going daily?

... is there space on this market for two non-stop carriers?


Good question. I presume AC is hoping to grab market share from CX by offering nonstop in both directions year round.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
b-hox
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:41 pm

"Can Toronto support a YYZ-HKG with Cathay and Air Canada going daily?

... is there space on this market for two non-stop carriers? "


They already fly daily............
AC YYZ flights to HKG stop in YVR to pick up pax from there too........





-B-HOX-
 
Guest

RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:15 pm

Can Toronto support a YYZ-HKG with Cathay and Air Canada going daily?
... is there space on this market for two non-stop carriers?


There'll be the market if AC can add more code-share flight with it's Star partner (especially SIA, Thai, or perhaps a partner in China) out of Hong Kong.
 
yow
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:38 pm

"They already fly daily............
AC YYZ flights to HKG stop in YVR to pick up pax from there too........"

True, however the YYZ-YVR leg is operated as a domestic flight. Anyone going HKG-YYZ, still has to clear customs in YVR...almost the equivalent to changing planes, unlike CX, where it's just a refuelling tech stop.



 
flyyul
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RE: Canada / Hong Kong Liberalize Bilateral

Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:37 pm

""Can Toronto support a YYZ-HKG with Cathay and Air Canada going daily?

... is there space on this market for two non-stop carriers? "


They already fly daily............
AC YYZ flights to HKG stop in YVR to pick up pax from there too........ "

-THis flight is open for YYZYVR pax.. and a good portion of the pax on this flight are going to YVR, so its not really indicative of the potential on the YYZHKG market, because tis a dual seller..

Mark