9V-SPF
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Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:27 pm

There´s an article in the newest issue of the german civil aviation magazine "Aero International" in which it is stated that Lufthansa might be seriously considering to order a "significant" number of Boeing 717´s soon.

What do you think of this rumour?

Personally I´m not really convinced of this being true (although I would love to see LH 717´s at FRA), taking into account that Lufthansa has just decided to pull some smaller planes out of service due to low demand. Those 717´s would probably be meant as a replacement for the older 737´s in LH´s fleet but as far as I know those 737´s are still quite profitable.

Daniel
 
717fan
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:59 pm

LH is searching for a 100 seater, but it will be very big surprise if its the 717....
 
Matt D
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 12:35 am

Highly unlikely, given their current loyalty to Airbus. But then again, who knows...
 
TWAL1011
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 12:48 am

It'd put a smile on my face.
 
Paulianer
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:11 am

I don't think so, because it seems that Lufthansa is going to an all airbus fleet...
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:17 am

WHat if LH was considering the 717 for the Cityline fleet as a replacement for both the 146 and 735?

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Udo
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:23 am

LH CityLine is restricted to operate a maximum of 80 seats per aircraft, if so, B717 will fly at LH mainline. However, the A318 might win the competition.

LH is not going to operate an all Airbus fleet, the B747-400 won't leave soon, and LH might even look at the B747-400QLR since Airbus cannot offer a direct replacement for the regular B747-400. The A346 is too small, the A380 is too large.


Regards
Udo
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SQ325
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:24 am

LH is still searching for a DO728 replacement and the CRJ900 is everything else than a good choice, same for the EMB which are no longer an option for LH!
One point for the A318 ist the fact that LH operates A319/320/321 but it could be hard to earn money with the A318 because of its weight and the lousy engines.
The B717 instead is a very profitable aircraft and i wouldn't go that far and say LH will operate an all Airbus fleet in the future.
Bur maybe we all are facing into one of the biggest sensations!
I doubt it but i would die to fly the B717  Big thumbs up
 
SQ325
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:28 am

Udo you are wrong!
We'll get 93 seats on our RJ85!
Transition is starting in march and it is planned to convert 2 Aircrafts per week!
So the scope clause is more or less ignored!!!
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 2:13 am

SQ325 is correct, the scope-clause, well, don´t know if it´s gonna be dumped are ignored, but the whole thing is about to be worked out, let´s put it that way.

ok, so the news is from the recent issue of Aero, well, not one of the most reliable magazines out there. but i have to admit that sometimes it pulls off some great and eventually true news. it was the same case with OZ joining Star, no one thought about it and when they posted the news, many people thought it would be crazy. and now they´re joining...

what really bugs is that the 735s, which should be the most probable type to be replaced if this rumour is true (due to similar capacity) aren´t that old. the ARJs might go along with 735s in the end, but there´s still some difference in regards to seat capacity.

and on a side-note. CLH, though operating more expensive than teamLH and EW, are still less expensive than LH. so i´m sure if they´d operate a fleet of aircraft to replace about 30 735s (don´t know the exact numbers) Weber and & Co. would be very pleased to let them operate such an aircraft.
please note, this is mere speculation on my part.

if this is true or not, and i´m very skeptical about it, i´d say they´d choose the 717 over the A318. don´t think so, for commonality reasons? on short legs, the 717 should have the edge over the Airbus...

and Lufthansa going all-Airbus, come on, that´s just silly. i mean, leisure carriers like LTU going for one manufacturer, yeah, makes sense, but such a big airline? politics do still play a part in today´s orders, and although LH is obviously very convinced of Airbus production line, there´s still room and need for other aircraft... there´s just not a tailored down fleet for one airline of such a size and such a huge network with such diverse markets from just one manufacturer. ok, just my two cents...

cheers
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
9V-SPF
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 2:46 am

I don´t think that commonality is such a big deal when it comes to decisions about future aircraft additions to the LH fleet. The Boeing 777 and the Boeing 717 (and of course some regional jets and russian airplanes) are the only modern aircraft types that are currently not flying for LH, LH cargo or Thomas Cook so LH somehow must be accustomed to dealing with a diverse fleet.

By the way, if you have not checked out the newest Aero issue yet, you should do so because there is also a very interesting report about SXM (St. Maarten airport), accompanied by some excellent photos.

Daniel
 
Guest

RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 3:20 am

Prime candidate to replace the cancelled 60 Dornier 728 order, I think.
 
racko
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 3:45 am

Jürgen Weber has publically stated that LH will continue to buy aircraft from both manufacturers. Makes sense actually, as they can play out A & B against each other and get cheaper prices. They just didn't buy anything from Boeing in the last time because they wasn't a real opportunity, the 767 didn't stand a chance against the A330 because of commonality (Pilots can be qualified on both the A330 & A340 at the same time and training only takes 1 or 2 days to get the type-rating if you already hold one for the other aircraft.).

About the 717, I'd love to finally see a DC9-relative in the LH livery, but I doubt it'll happen as the 717 is probably not that well-fitted for the regional routes as the next-generation regionals. Imho LH still has a little hope that someone will buy & finish the Do728 as it was designed mainly with LH's needs in mind, but the chances are getting smaller every day. If the 728 is indeed dead, LH will probably go for the EMB-170 or the CRJ-900, although don't seem to really fit their needs.
 
717fan
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:14 am

The 717 could replace the 735 and 733.....
They have the CR7 at LufthansaCityline...so perhaps they will replace the RJ85 with the CR9...
 
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Fly-K
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:41 am

SQ325 why is Embraer no longer an option?
Then why did I just see Embraer salespeople this week on the LH base...?

K.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:04 am

9V-SPF,

would you be so kind and hint me at the page where to find this article about LH and 717? i´ve just returned home and took my Aero issue out of the mailbox and went through it, but i didn´t find a thing. i must be blind and haven´t looked closely enough.

thanks
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:11 am

A 717 order by LH would add immense credibility to the 717 program & would likely spawn addl orders. Finnair has been reported to be evaluating the aircraft.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
donder10
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:45 am

Interesting rumour.Could somebody please provide a break down of capacity of CRJs here?
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:36 am

Even if there was a scope claus that said that the Cityline aircraft couldn't have more than 80 seats, whats to stop them from getting the 717? So they get the 717 and just put 80 seats in it, make the seating 2-2 instead of 3-2, more comfort for the passengers.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:56 am

For your info: Finnair will likely decide in favour of 15 F100 as far as I´ve heard the past days. Reason: they are dirt-cheap. Word is either a larger CRJ700/900 or EMB-190/195 order for LH, EW and posssibly 4U (sounds a bit strange IMO).

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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9V-SPF
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:38 am

Johnnybgoode,

the article is on page No. 32 and its headline is "Trent Antrieb für LH-A330", so maybe it is this headline which made you miss the short remark about the supposed 717 order.

Daniel
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:55 am

thanks a lot!

you guessed right, i just turned the pages looked for something special and didn´t read through the Trent story, and that´s where it was!

cheers
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
lubcha132
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:16 am

i think they would look good in the LH colors..but pretty much anything would.
 
gkirk
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:17 am

I would say LH would go for the A318  Smile
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:34 am

I would say LH would go for the A318

The majority of the airlines involved with that aircraft probably pulled out for a reason.............  Laugh out loud
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CX747
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:42 pm

It would definately be amazing if the 717 was ordered by LH. Obviously fleet commonality tilts the order to the A318 but in these times of dire financial needs the most efficient & profitable aircraft is going to be choosen.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:16 pm

I can see LH ordering the 717 for the following reasons. I know that there are more, its late and I cant think of them.

1. It is already in service and has good remarks from the airlines that have it.
2. It has proven better fuel efficency than what Boeing originally gave it.
3. The A318 is having problems and is not in service yet.
4. The 717 weights less than the A318.

Stephen
 
717fan
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:13 am

The engines are produced in Germany....that could also be an advantage...
 
mikkel777
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:45 am

Is 170/190 out of the question? I've heard something about some Star Alliance members getting a deal together .. But 717 would be nice !
 
cloudy
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:10 am

Didn't Lufthansa Cargo complain when Boeing stopped MD-11 production?

If they now want the 717, that would be most ironic.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:18 am

I still think it was pretty fu**ed up of SAS to launch the MD-95, and then turn around and cancel their order for the 737-600. They should have thought about it before launching it. That costs MDC alot of money. If LH does order this plane, let's hope they keep it.

Sorry if I sound a little grumpy, but with LH being a 737 customer, it wouldn't surprise me if they stabbed MDC in the back like that. However, they were loyal to the MD-11.
Puhdiddle
 
MD-90
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:38 am

Well, it seems like SAS is regretting their decision. Too bad for them that they didn't go with the superior aircraft. Hopefully Lufthansa won't make the same mistake.
 
Fleet Service
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:59 pm

Highly unlikely the 717 enters LH service.However, the possibility of Boeing making a deal with the Devil to place more airframes into service with a major airline can not be discounted.
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:11 pm

I would love to see the 717 goes into ops with LH, although I've only been on it once I can say that its a powerful yet quiet plane (like the F100)...
 
717fan
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:43 pm

I am wondering how serious this article from Aero is....Do they really have inside LH information?
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:30 pm

717fan, ever thought why Aero International hasn´t the best reputation? They write a lot of wrong info and second-guessing. Info I have is that the choice has been narrowed down to the EMB-175/190/195 and CRJ700/900 with a potentially large additional A32X order being placed this year, too.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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LHMark
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:35 pm

Now that I really think about it, the 717 seems very well suited to the German domestic market. The good short-hop economics and 100-ish seats make it a nice fit for thinner German routes like Paderborn, Augsburg, Sylt, Muenster, etc.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
717fan
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 12:31 am

Interesting is what an LH offical said: That they will have both Airbus and Boeing planes in its future fleet.....
The only future Boeing aircraft I can is the 744. I am sure LH will replace its 735/733 fleet soon, so the 717 is good candidate and if Boeing will produce a 717-300 chances are even higher....

Flying-Tiger, why hasn't Aero a good reputation?? In my eyes they are not worser and not better than all the other aviation magazines....Wrong information you'll find in every magazine sometimes...
 
Guest

RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:18 am

BR715-A1-30 - The reason why SAS cancelled their orders for the 717 was because it was at the time when Boeing took over McDonnell Douglas and the airline was not sure whether or not Boeing would produce parts in the years to come for the 717. At the time also, Boeing did not want the 717 so that combined with the fact that Boeing made SAS a sweet deal on the 736 is why this happened.

Stephen
 
srbmod
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:09 am

Racko, the 717 is ideally suited for regional flights. Qantaslink, AerBal, and launch customer AirTran use them on regional flights. AirTran has moved some of the 717s on the shorter flights with CRJ-200s of AirTran JetConnect, mainly because of the low load factors on short hops of under 90 minutes. Boeing even touts the 717 as a regional jet. The 717 is designed for multiple short-haul frequencies, like those typically done by regional airlines. The 717 was designed from the start for shorthaul, regional service. The current crop of RJs (EMB-170/190 family and the CRJ-900 are excluded since they are not in pax service yet) are better suited for long, thin routes. Embraer will be a player in the 70-100 seat market if launch customer Swiss shows that the aircraft is successful. With Embraer having to delay the first deliveries due to some tech issues, the longer it takes for them to start delivering the EMB-170, the better chance Boeing has of getting a 717 order from airlines that were looking at the next generation of Embraer a/c.
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:23 am

a) As far as I know SK never had a firm order on the MD-95/B717-200. The B737-600 was ordered before ValuJet launched the MD-95 wiht an order for 50+50 frames.

b) LHMark: Ehm, which are the destinations you are talking about? FMO and PAD could possibly support a 100-seater but I´ve my doubts. AGB´s runway is way to short and LH has just confirmed that they are cancelling all IQ operations out of AGB, leaving 2 Dash 8 idle. And GWT with a 100-seater is joke, the largest equipment operating into this airport is a ATR 42 as far as I know. LH Mailine will in future concentrate on domestic services which can support B737/A32X, everything smaller will be given to either CL, EW or Team Lufthansa.

c) Lufthansa will mostly likely always have a mixed Boeing/Airbus fleet, LHs B747 fleet is around 30 frames strong plus about 60 B737. The A32X fleet is around 80 frames strong, the A300/310 about 20 and the A330/340 fleet about 40. And as Airbus does not really offer a suitable B747-400 replacement those birds are going to stay for a long long time.

d) The B717 is and will be a stand-alone if Boeing doesn´t go ahead with a new version. And as a stand-alone it does not make any sense for Lufthansa due to scheduling and crewing issues, they are much more flexible with a CRJ (EMB?)/A32X (B737) Mix than a CRJ/B717/A32X/B737 mix. And don´t forget the scope clause issues at the carrier. Mind if I throw another option into the game: additional CRJ700, new CRJ900, new A318, additional A319/320/321.

e) Aero International was a good magazine until Rudolf Braunburg died and others took over. Since that time the quality went down to basically stating the official releases of the airlines, and the news are in my opinion not really of high quality. I know what other magazines write which possibly appear every week - and then it shouldn´t be too difficult for a monthly periodical to bring news of high quality. If I compare them with Airliner World I will always favour AW.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
LHMark
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:55 am

Flying Tiger, that's what I get for naming midsized German cities off the top of my head instead of looking at actual data. Maybe I should have suggested Leipzig  Smile
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
9V-SPF
Topic Author
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RE: Lufthansa To Order The Boeing 717?

Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:50 pm

Well, well, Leipzig International...
The airport officials call their baby "the new major airport for central germany" but they seem to be the only ones who still believe in being able to attract any major airline apart from LH and some bulgarian charter carriers.
I think there´s just no potential for a significant increase of movements at LEJ; when I was there the last time, there was a visitor tour and the guide had to tell his guests that there were unfortunately no airplanes at the airport at that moment...
But LHMark, you might be correct, a 717 would probably be an airplane which could make some additional routes to/from LEJ or DRS profitable as it is, as some people already mentioned, very efficient on short hops, even if it is not fully loaded.

Daniel

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